Jethro Bodine
Member
I think David kind of puts a kink in Hopeful's 'sinless perfection' doctrine.
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
Consecrated Life
Member
Yes, he really ought to just stop now.I think David kind of puts a kink in Hopeful's 'sinless perfection' doctrine.
But based on his manifest unfamiliarity with the Spirit of God I'm betting he won't .
We began in the Mind of God in Himself, in Eternity as God is Eternity personified.
IF we began in the Mind of God, He contemplated us in Himself as a saved, sanctified, holy and righteous people. That's the ONLY WAY God can contemplate us. THIS is His foreknowledge of us. We were deemed in the Mind of God and when God created a body for all of us and breathed us into the loins of the first man we all became "lost." We became "lost" by virtue of our creation and now 'outside' of God. That's why Jesus Christ is called our RE-deemer. And by virtue of our creation and being born we all became sin-ful just like the first man, Adam.
Our being contemplated in the Mind of God IS His foreknowledge of us.
But He didn't choose us because we chose Him first. That's ridiculous. We were completely passive in our salvation. Because we were in bondage in sin all God did was enter as a stronger man, bind the strong man, and pilfer 'his' good. The strong man is not a man, but sin. Once He frees His predestined, elect people there is nowhere else to go. And so we go to Him. But unless He frees us, we go straight to hell, we do not pass "Go" and do not collect $200.
As far as Sherlock goes....
ALL baseball players who play Major League do not enter training camp, pick up a ball, toss it around, write their name in the line-up, and on opening day hit the field and began playing bazeball.
THEY HAVE TO BE CHOSEN FIRST BY THE TEAM OWNER OR MANAGER, Sherlock!
And there is no foreknowledge in the choice UNLESS the Manager is there for his birth, follows him through pre-school, elementary school, middle school, high school, into college, and when that player is eligible for the draft THEN he is chosen. But that is an impossibility. Who knows if that baby decides to become a Communist instead?
C'mon, Sherlock! It's not rocket science!
Here's the Scripture AGAIN. Read carefully:
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Jn 10:27–29.
It says nothing about "continuing to believe."
Jesus said "I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE;"
If Christ doesn't give a person eternal life they are doomed. Period.
Jethro Bodine
Member
OK. Great.
Here's one:
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 Pet. 1:23.
And this doesn't only mean the written word.
God either THOUGHT or SPOKE the Word BEFORE HE CREATED ANYTHING.
No, I did not say, or infer that.
It is written..."And David said unto Nathan, (a prophet), I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." (2 Sam 12:13)
David suffered other things because of his sins, but still had the Mosaic Laws atonements for his sins.
David was allowed to continue to live, but a very troubled life it was.
Jethro Bodine
Member
We know that it was not intended that incorrupitle seed mean you can never lose it by the Parable of the Sower where the word was rejected by the second kind of soil. It didn't perish nor was it corrupted. It was rejected.
The word remains incorruptible no matter who rejects. It being retained in the soil is not the meaning of the seed being incorruptible. Incorruptible means it will always do what it says it will do in the soil that retains it in continued believing. That promise is sure. That's why we're told to keep believing - Hebrews 4:14, Hebrews 10:23.
The word of his promise is sure, so keep believing! That's the exhortation of scripture.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Not the sin of murder. There is no provision in the law for forgiveness for murder.
That's what the good news of forgiveness in Christ is all about - Acts 13:38-39. Things that could not be forgiven by the law are forgiven by the blood of Christ.
A red flag should have gone up the moment you typed "that is the ONLY WAY God can contemplate us"
But Jesus looked at them and said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible." (Mk. 10:27 NKJ)
God is Omniscient, All knowing. The fall didn't surprise Him, He created an antidote for it, called election so He not lose even one of those He loved in His foreknowledge.
Calvinists miss the big picture, they are right God is sovereign, did not select us on what we do now in this fallen realm. But they fail to realize God is Omniscient, before He created He knew those who loved Him BEFORE ANY FALL CORRUPTED THEIR FREE WILL. And God makes certain not a hair on their head will perish because of the work of Satan.
Satan has no victory over God's elect, but he can deceive the non-elect from entering the kingdom.
But the NON-ELECT are not the apple of God's eye. If they repent and truly believe, God will love them as His own, but its "iffy" with the "middling people," they can go either way.
God did not reprobate anyone, all have equal opportunity to repent and believe. Like the prodigal son, if they start back on the Road to God, He meets them and prevenient grace gives them the ability to repent and believe and be saved by grace just like the Elect.
17 "But when he came to himself, he said,`How many of my father's hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 `I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you,
19 "and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants."'
20 "And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him.
21 "And the son said to him,`Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his servants,`Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet.
23 `And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry;
24 `for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' And they began to be merry. (Lk. 15:17-24 NKJ)
When someone dies unredeemed, its their fault. Some Calvinists truly err about this, and I consider the notion God would predestine unto reprobation blasphemous.
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I decided to answer you more fully, treat what you have said here.
You say God foreknew us perfectly, but He created us lost: "when God created a body for all of us and breathed us into the loins of the first man we all became "lost." We became "lost" by virtue of our creation and now 'outside' of God."
That isn't in the creation account at all:
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Gen. 2:7 NKJ)
The substance of our soul is the Spirit of God's breath united with the dust God the Word called into existence.
That "living being" inhabits the physical body like a "ghost in a machine", united to it.
Adam and Eve were NOT lost UNTIL they disobeyed God, transgressed His command they not eat of that particular tree, and it was THEN they were separated from the presence of God. That is why they suddenly realized they were naked and ashamed, but now they were sinful, having missed the mark of God's perfection by rebelling against His command.
You misunderstand what I said about our "unfallen versions". These exist in the Mind of God only. They are "us" without the fall. In God's Omniscience He knew everyone who would come into existence, and which of them would use their free will to rebel against Him.
God ignored the latter group, they are irrelevant to Him, children of the Devil.
God wanted to experience those who did love Him differently than those who did not.
These God foreknew and in that foreknowing experience, God loved them even more and predestined them unto salvation, decreeing that all things will work together for their good:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)
Nothing is said about the non-elect or children of the Devil. Both can be saved if they choose it, God will enable their feeble groping so they find Him.
But God will not tolerate anything in His creation cause the loss of even one of those He Elected, lest He mourn their absence for all eternity. He wants them back, to come into existence through the reconciliation of all things through the blood of the cross (Col. 1:20).
These who loved God in their Unfallen Version that exist only the Mind of God, are loved by Him far more than words can describe, and through Christ they will "live again".
(as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations ") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (Rom. 4:17 NKJ)
Therefore, ALL THINGS will work for their good, even Hades itself.
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journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello Hopeful.
David offered no sacrifice for the adultery and murder he committed. He said,
O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise. For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:15-17
It sure was and I fully agree with you that,
no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1Jn.3:15
Consecrated Life
Member
A continuing life of sin, you mean .
Sinning with forethought & knowledge no less in an illicit relationship with his murder victims wife.
According to you David is proof that you can not only get away with murder, but then the sinful spoils of the murder are yours to indulge in on a continual everyday basis using God's little known pre-atonement plan,
It's just like deciding you are going to park illegally in a handicap parking space everyday , but before doing so you stop by the courthouse everyday and pre-pay the $500 " Atonement " fee.
Never realized the mosaic law was so soft, easy & flexible.
But I have to wonder given the lifelong serial sin of David and his being allowed to atone everyday for years and years , are you sure the guy God commanded to die for a single offense of picking up sticks on the sabbath, who was given no chance for atonement under the same law that David lived under is now in the Lake of fire ?
Num 15:33
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello 07/07/07.
It's very sad that many people professing faith in God today don't see the viscious assault against his Son as sin,
Of how much sorer punishment suppose ye shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God... Heb.10:29
Again, Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Backsliders are no longer following Jesus. One can't serve sin and Jesus too.
Ezekiel 18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
True, thus provoking the Lord to forgive him personally (through Nathan). (2 Sam 12:13)
I wonder what kind of gap there was between David's sin and the writing of Psalm 51.
Good thing Nathan brought David good news along with the bad news..."And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." (2 Sam 12:13)
I haven't heard the term "backsliders" in my Pentecostal days (the 1970's). It implies that there is some kind of force pulling people back into sin, and that there is a constant struggle against this force. That is dependent on keeping sin foremost in one's mind, as opposed to resting securely in God's love. Once a person becomes a Christian, their actions are guided by the Holy Spirit, not by some "gravitational force" pulling them into the power of sin.
Of course, that gives status to preachers to proclaim fire and brimstone, thus controlling their dependent followers. It's just a power tactic, and is not Scriptural.
I don't read of further sin by David, later in scripture...(though I am not overly familiar with the OT)
With Uriah dead, adultery is no longer chargeable...(if you want to get Pharasitical).
If you want to use 2 Sam 12:13 as "my" proof, the credit should go to what is written by Spirit filled men.
And, I don't think the "pre-atonement" plan, the Law of Moses, was hidden from anyone.
God may have offered forgiveness to the "stick gatherer" too, if Jesus was to come from him genetically.
Do any of you guys know what sin is ?
Sin is unbelief in righteousness, the righteousness of Jesus Christ is laying HIs life down for us, Apostle Paul was called as an example of keeping the faith, of loosing his life for Christ and the gospel, and their examples are not the talk of men's wisdom, in strife, contention, debate, disputes, that is earthly and devilish, and is the sin of unbelievers who claim they are believers. ( shame on the people who never speak of the doing, as Apostle Paul is an example of. Matthew 8:20. 1 Corinthians 4:11.)
Christ told the things that were never known, king David never heard them, and all who live as anyone in the examples of the old testament, reveal they never heard ( in their heart) these things of Jesus Christ also, to now, unlike king David, to follow.
Have not I immediately proven your side arguments about king David show you have no knowledge about God in any right ways in this thread ?
Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
If your discussion goes on, you prove you have zero care if anyone sins or not, because the discussion is that.
But, if anyone did want to remember what we are to BELIEVE IN, it is the complete opposite of the general discussion in your threads, it is the least of all to be great, but where would we find such a person in an exalted vain loving conversation based salvation ? ( they say and do not, in these forums.)
Luke 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
Luke 14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Sin is unbelief in righteousness, the righteousness of Jesus Christ is laying HIs life down for us, Apostle Paul was called as an example of keeping the faith, of loosing his life for Christ and the gospel, and their examples are not the talk of men's wisdom, in strife, contention, debate, disputes, that is earthly and devilish, and is the sin of unbelievers who claim they are believers. ( shame on the people who never speak of the doing, as Apostle Paul is an example of. Matthew 8:20. 1 Corinthians 4:11.)
Christ told the things that were never known, king David never heard them, and all who live as anyone in the examples of the old testament, reveal they never heard ( in their heart) these things of Jesus Christ also, to now, unlike king David, to follow.
Have not I immediately proven your side arguments about king David show you have no knowledge about God in any right ways in this thread ?
Hebrews 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets.
Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Isaiah 52:15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
Matthew 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
If your discussion goes on, you prove you have zero care if anyone sins or not, because the discussion is that.
But, if anyone did want to remember what we are to BELIEVE IN, it is the complete opposite of the general discussion in your threads, it is the least of all to be great, but where would we find such a person in an exalted vain loving conversation based salvation ? ( they say and do not, in these forums.)
Luke 9:48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
Luke 14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.