Can You Fall?

[BornAgain]

Once you become a Christian, can you ever lose that salvation, no matter what you do? And, if you somehow do end up falling away, then does that mean that you were never saved to begin with?

Once you become a true Christian, if you are a true child of God, if you're really a Christian, then you will never, ever lose that salvation? Doesn't that sound like a nice doctrine?

I mean, it sounds good, it preaches good. Once you become a Christian, you don't have to worry about anything anymore. Everything is taken care of. Well, it may sound good, but is that what the bible teaches?

 

[farouk]

BornAgain:

Psalm 37.23-24 are good background verses.

The end of Romans 8 also contains some very assuring verses.

In the end it's a matter of relying by grace, and practically, on a sound doctrinal understanding of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

 

[BornAgain]

BornAgain:

Psalm 37.23-24 are good background verses.

The end of Romans 8 also contains some very assuring verses.

In the end it's a matter of relying by grace, and practically, on a sound doctrinal understanding of the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus.

When we become Christians, we can fall from God's grace. In 1 Corinthians 9:27.

 

[farouk]

When we become Christians, we can fall from God's grace. In 1 Corinthians 9:27.

BornAgain:

What Paul seems to be saying, in the context, is, he constantly avoids letting his conduct undermine his message. Paul says 'lest by any means...': he is constantly avoiding it.

An example I often give:

I am married to my wife and I don't fear being ensnared by another woman. But I constantly avoid it.

 

[BornAgain]

BornAgain:

What Paul seems to be saying, in the context, is, he constantly avoids letting his conduct undermine his message. Paul says 'lest by any means...': he is constantly avoiding it.

An example I often give:

I am married to my wife and I don't fear being ensnared by another woman. But I constantly avoid it.

Paul is saying, he plainly means his whole self, as acting and acting on through the body. His views he expressed is his determination to beat down all those unholy thoughts. Every man's body is his enemy instead of being his servant.

 

[farouk]

1 Peter 1.3-5 is also a relevant and helpful passage, I think.

 

[handy]

I believe that the Bible certainly teaches that we can fall from grace... there are many Scriptures that warn us to be diligent and wary that we do not separate ourselves from God's grace. Why would the Holy Spirit be so concerned with warning us, giving us quite dire warnings in fact, against something that would be impossible?

The only logical explanation is that it's not impossible. That we can indeed fall from grace. But, every promise is also in place that as long as we turn to God in repentance, we will be fully restored.

The key is, there seems to be a point of no return... not on God's part, but a point where a backsliding person goes so far as to no longer repent. The Scriptures certainly warn us to not place ourselves in that danger.

 

[farouk]

I believe that the Bible certainly teaches that we can fall from grace... there are many Scriptures that warn us to be diligent and wary that we do not separate ourselves from God's grace. Why would the Holy Spirit be so concerned with warning us, giving us quite dire warnings in fact, against something that would be impossible?

The only logical explanation is that it's not impossible. That we can indeed fall from grace. But, every promise is also in place that as long as we turn to God in repentance, we will be fully restored.

The key is, there seems to be a point of no return... not on God's part, but a point where a backsliding person goes so far as to no longer repent. The Scriptures certainly warn us to not place ourselves in that danger.

...but was the person truly a believer in the first place? we don't know people's hearts.

If we are 'kept' (1 Peter 1.5), it must be all of grace, all of God, else we would end up relying on our own efforts and supposed merits.

 

[handy]

Another quick thought is this:

While the idea of there being a real danger to falling from Grace in no way negates the many promises of God's forgiveness and restoration if we repent... the idea that once we're saved, we're always saved no matter what certainly negates the many Scriptures that warn us that falling from grace to the point we stop repenting is a real possibility.

 

[handy]

...but was the person truly a believer in the first place? we don't know people's hearts.

If we are 'kept' (1 Peter 1.5), it must be all of grace, all of God, else we would end up relying on our own efforts and supposed merits.

I did a quick check on "kept", because the NASB translates it "protected". Strong's defines the word as being guarded.

And I fully believes that God guards us in our faith and protects us as well. But, that God guards and protects us, doesn't negate the fact that some very well may return to a carnal life, and reach a point of no longer seeking forgiveness and repentance. Again, I don't see the Holy Spirit warning us against impossibilities.

 

[farouk]

What has happened is that evangelists have swept a lot of people into making professions. Then when some of them very obviously are continuing in sin and live and even die in that state, instead of the evangelists asking what was the truth and doctrine content of the message the people are supposed to have embraced, they then invent the idea that maybe they were Christians then but not any more. (Where does this leave the grace of God?)

I think evangelists ought to quit knotching up professions of faith. This is, rather, the Holy Spirit's work. The preacher should proclaim faithfully the love of the Lord Jesus to sinners, which took Him to die at the Cross for them. And leave God to work in their hearts. (I find the business side of evangelism nauseating. Results - true results - are God's work.)

There is an account of the preacher John Wesley, who met a critic who said, pointing to a drunk man in the gutter: 'See, Mr Wesley, there is one of your converts.' John Wesley replied: 'Yes, indeed, he must have been one of my converts, because he obviously wasn't one of God's converts.'

 

[farouk]

Re. repentance, this passage is relevant, I think:

'Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of; but the sorrow of the world worketh death' (2 Corinthians 7.10).

 

[iLOVE]

During the Old Testament Age, the Spirit of God would come on people and then leave them. God's Spirit departed from King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14; 18:12); and David, when confessing his sin, asked that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11). When the Spirit was given at Pentecost, He was given to God's people to remain with them forever. Even though we may grieve the Holy Spirit, He will not leave us. Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 " . . . And surely I am with always, to the very end of the age." How is He with us when we are taught that He is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father? He is with us by His Spirit (the other of the same kind -- the Parakletos --the Comforter, the Advocate), who indwells us and never will leave us if we are true believers in Jesus Christ.

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in Ephesians 1:13-14 where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit, “who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

While the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 4:30). Sin always has consequences in our relationship with God. While our relationship with God is secure in Christ, unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with God and effectively quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to confess our sins because God is “faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the benefits and joy of His presence can in fact depart from us.

 

[BornAgain]

During the Old Testament Age, the Spirit of God would come on people and then leave them. God's Spirit departed from King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14; 18:12); and David, when confessing his sin, asked that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11). When the Spirit was given at Pentecost, He was given to God's people to remain with them forever. Even though we may grieve the Holy Spirit, He will not leave us. Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 " . . . And surely I am with always, to the very end of the age." How is He with us when we are taught that He is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father? He is with us by His Spirit (the other of the same kind -- the Parakletos --the Comforter, the Advocate), who indwells us and never will leave us if we are true believers in Jesus Christ.

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in Ephesians 1:13-14 where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit, “who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

While the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 4:30). Sin always has consequences in our relationship with God. While our relationship with God is secure in Christ, unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with God and effectively quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to confess our sins because God is “faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the benefits and joy of His presence can in fact depart from us.

Amen, iLove...that was nicely said.

 

[iLOVE]

Did Satan believe the Holy Spirit was taken from Moses:

Jude verse 9 refers to an event which is found nowhere else in Scripture. Michael had to struggle or dispute with Satan about the body of Moses, but what that entailed is not described. Another angelic struggle is related by Daniel, who describes an angel coming to him in a vision. This angel, named Gabriel in Daniel 8:16 and 9:21, tells Daniel that he was “resisted” by a demon called “the prince of Persia” until the archangel Michael came to his assistance (Daniel 10:13). So we learn from Daniel that angels and demons fight spiritual battles over the souls of men and nations, and that the demons resist angels and try to prevent them from doing God’s bidding. Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

Various theories have been put forth as to what this struggle over Moses’ body was about. One is that Satan, ever the accuser of God’s people (Revelation 12:10), may have resisted the raising of Moses to eternal life on the grounds of Moses’ sin at Meribah (Deuteronomy 32:51) and his murder of the Egyptian (Exodus 2:12).

 

[Butch5]

BornAgain:

What Paul seems to be saying, in the context, is, he constantly avoids letting his conduct undermine his message. Paul says 'lest by any means...': he is constantly avoiding it.

An example I often give:

I am married to my wife and I don't fear being ensnared by another woman. But I constantly avoid it.

But what is Paul fearful of being cast away from?

 

[Butch5]

During the Old Testament Age, the Spirit of God would come on people and then leave them. God's Spirit departed from King Saul (1 Samuel 16:14; 18:12); and David, when confessing his sin, asked that the Spirit not be taken from him (Psalm 51:11). When the Spirit was given at Pentecost, He was given to God's people to remain with them forever. Even though we may grieve the Holy Spirit, He will not leave us. Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 " . . . And surely I am with always, to the very end of the age." How is He with us when we are taught that He is in Heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father? He is with us by His Spirit (the other of the same kind -- the Parakletos --the Comforter, the Advocate), who indwells us and never will leave us if we are true believers in Jesus Christ.

The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is also seen in Ephesians 1:13-14 where believers are said to be “sealed” with the Holy Spirit, “who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.”

While the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer, it is possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” (1 Thessalonians 5:19) or “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 4:30). Sin always has consequences in our relationship with God. While our relationship with God is secure in Christ, unconfessed sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with God and effectively quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That is why it is so important to confess our sins because God is “faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy Spirit will never leave us, the benefits and joy of His presence can in fact depart from us.

Where do the Scriptures teach that the Spirit will never leave a believer? Are saying that if one doesn't continue in belief the Spirit will still remain with them?

 

[Butch5]

I did a quick check on "kept", because the NASB translates it "protected". Strong's defines the word as being guarded.

And I fully believes that God guards us in our faith and protects us as well. But, that God guards and protects us, doesn't negate the fact that some very well may return to a carnal life, and reach a point of no longer seeking forgiveness and repentance. Again, I don't see the Holy Spirit warning us against impossibilities.

The key to being kept is faith, Peter said they were kept through faith.

 

[Butch5]

...but was the person truly a believer in the first place? we don't know people's hearts.

If we are 'kept' (1 Peter 1.5), it must be all of grace, all of God, else we would end up relying on our own efforts and supposed merits.

Peter says they are kept through faith. It seems faith is the prerequisite for being kept.

 

[iLOVE]

Where do the Scriptures teach that the Spirit will never leave a believer? Are saying that if one doesn't continue in belief the Spirit will still remain with them?

You are twisting the scriptures. How can one be a Christian without the Holy Spirit? Either you are a Christian or you are a non Christian.