Can You Fall?

[heymikey80]

You should look at Paul's words to the Hebrews.

6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

(Heb 3:6-14 KJV)

I think we have to distinguish between nominal Christians, which would include those who name the name of Christ but who has not reached a point of actually relying in Christ.

19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. Heb 3:19 ESV

 

[Butch5]

I think we have to distinguish between nominal Christians, which would include those who name the name of Christ but who has not reached a point of actually relying in Christ.

19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief. Heb 3:19 ESV

Do you really believe that the Israelites who came out of Egypt never relied on God?

 

[heymikey80]

Do you really believe that the Israelites who came out of Egypt never relied on God?

Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel? 26 You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves. Amos 5:25-26

Yes. I really believe what the Bible says about Israel at this time.

When it comes to reliance on God, this is not simple reliance. The initial directive is to rely on God and not ourselves, nor a king, nor any other god.

 

[Mitspa]

Mitspa,

Those in the desert that Paul is speaking of did not have the Law. Their sin was turning away from God and desiring to go back to Egypt. Paul is warning his readers not to turn from God and go back to the Law. Their going back to the Law is a rejection of faith, thus an evil heart of unbelief. Paul clearly states that sin leads to a heart of unbelief.

No, unbelief is the sin. The rebellion was unbelief !

Heb 3:19 SO WE SEE that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

this is making the point that unbelief is sin.
3:6 but Christ as a Son over His Own House, whoes house we are IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

again not sure of your point?

 

[Butch5]

No, unbelief is the sin. The rebellion was unbelief !

Heb 3:19 SO WE SEE that they could not enter in because of UNBELIEF.

this is making the point that unbelief is sin.
3:6 but Christ as a Son over His Own House, whoes house we are IF WE HOLD FAST THE CONFIDENCE AND THE REJOICING OF THE HOPE FIRM TO THE END.

again not sure of your point?

The point is that sin leads to unbelief. Those Israelites in the desert were not some people who just never really believed in God. They believed, they saw the miracles, the left in the exodus, however, they didn't hold fast their confidence to the end. It's as Jesus said, some believe for a while but in times of tribulation they fall away. Those Israelites believed for a while but they didn't hold fast. That is what Paul is admonishing his readers against. It not some people who never believed and it not a salvation that no one can lose. Those in the wilderness fell and Paul warning his readers not to let the same thing happen to them.

 

[Butch5]

Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel? 26 You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves. Amos 5:25-26

Yes. I really believe what the Bible says about Israel at this time.

When it comes to reliance on God, this is not simple reliance. The initial directive is to rely on God and not ourselves, nor a king, nor any other god.

Dude, what does this quote from Amos have to do with those of the Exodus? The Exodus was hundreds of years before that. Did those in the wilderness eat manna? If so they relied on God. Did they drink of the rock? If so they relied on God etc, etc, etc. They put the blood on their door posts so that that death angel would pass them by, they relied on God. These weren't some people who never trusted or believed in God. These are people who at one time put their lives in God's hands and later turned away. This is what Paul is warning his readers against.

 

[Deborah13]

Dude, what does this quote from Amos have to do with those of the Exodus? The Exodus was hundreds of years before that. Did those in the wilderness eat manna? If so they relied on God. Did they drink of the rock? If so they relied on God etc, etc, etc. They put the blood on their door posts so that that death angel would pass them by, they relied on God. These weren't some people who never trusted or believed in God. These are people who at one time put their lives in God's hands and later turned away. This is what Paul is warning his readers against.

Butch5, I do agree with much of what you say but I would like to add this thought.
I wonder how much they were relying on God and how much they were relying on Moses. If I remember correctly ...Moses went up to receive the 10 Commandments, they grew tried of waiting for his return and wondered if he was coming back. Then they made the golden calf. I see them as not having their own communication with God to follow back on and they didn't rely on Aaron. Moses always told them what God said. This is not to make excuses for what they did but it shows me how fortunate we are to have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and how important it is that we stay close to Jesus. We cannot rely on anyone else to keep us on the right path. We too could be in danger of falling into sin.

 

[Mitspa]

The point is that sin leads to unbelief. Those Israelites in the desert were not some people who just never really believed in God. They believed, they saw the miracles, the left in the exodus, however, they didn't hold fast their confidence to the end. It's as Jesus said, some believe for a while but in times of tribulation they fall away. Those Israelites believed for a while but they didn't hold fast. That is what Paul is admonishing his readers against. It not some people who never believed and it not a salvation that no one can lose. Those in the wilderness fell and Paul warning his readers not to let the same thing happen to them.

it does not say that sin leads to unbelief but unbelief is sin. Read Pauls epistles about how by the law, sin deceives and holds us in bondage. He preached this EVERY WHERE he went. He is reminding them that THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW. THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. read chapter 4 also.

He goes on to say that those who have entered into Gods Rest Have ceased from their own works. LAW
and have entered into the TRUE SABBATH. WHICH IS FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

 

[Mitspa]

Responding to the original post, I believe that we can fall from grace and must be very careful not to wander from the path and soil our clothes. I believe that Revelation 3: 4-5 speaks of exactly that.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. (KJV)

True enough v5 only makes the statement I will not, but I believe the implication is clear. Some could and will have their name blotted out.

The clear and evident warning of "falling from grace" is made to those who turn back to the law. This is the ONLY biblical way that any believer can ever be seperated from Christ and the love of God.

For you who are justified by law, have fallen from grace! you are CUT OFF from Christ.

This is made so plain and evident that one cannot understand the rest of the scriptures until they see and understand that THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH.

so to be under law, is to IN FACT to reject Christ and His grace.

 

[eddif]

I am no ironworker so let them speak up.

He is able to keep you from falling.

Tie off to the main structure
Attend safety meetings
Check your safety harness
Be friends with your fellow workers (they may need them)
The crane may be helping erect things but it is temporary
You watch others
Stay mentally allert
Hope for spiritual workers

eddif

 

[Butch5]

it does not say that sin leads to unbelief but unbelief is sin. Read Pauls epistles about how by the law, sin deceives and holds us in bondage. He preached this EVERY WHERE he went. He is reminding them that THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW. THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH. read chapter 4 also.

He goes on to say that those who have entered into Gods Rest Have ceased from their own works. LAW
and have entered into the TRUE SABBATH. WHICH IS FULFILLED IN CHRIST.

. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (Heb 3:1 KJV)

They didn't enter the rest because they hardened their hearts which led to unbelief. Unbelief doesn't mean mental ascent, the were disobedient and sinned.

The true Sabbath is Christ's coming kingdom as Paul goes on to indicate in Heb 4

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, I do agree with much of what you say but I would like to add this thought.
I wonder how much they were relying on God and how much they were relying on Moses. If I remember correctly ...Moses went up to receive the 10 Commandments, they grew tried of waiting for his return and wondered if he was coming back. Then they made the golden calf. I see them as not having their own communication with God to follow back on and they didn't rely on Aaron. Moses always told them what God said. This is not to make excuses for what they did but it shows me how fortunate we are to have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and how important it is that we stay close to Jesus. We cannot rely on anyone else to keep us on the right path. We too could be in danger of falling into sin.

Hi Deborah,

I agree to a point. They did see the miracles, eat the manna and drink of the rock.

 

[Mitspa]

. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. (Heb 3:1 KJV)

They didn't enter the rest because they hardened their hearts which led to unbelief. Unbelief doesn't mean mental ascent, the were disobedient and sinned.

The true Sabbath is Christ's coming kingdom as Paul goes on to indicate in Heb 4

Sorry butch I just dont see your point! I think the very scriptures you use prove that the "sin" is unbelief.

The law is that which makes hard the heart. Faith hears Christ not moses.

This is My beloved Son, HEAR HIM. faith cometh by hearing.

 

[ezra]

this issue should not even come up..there is a know so salvation and our salvation can and is secure . there is no scripture that says thus saith the Lord you can or can not. Grace is not a license or excuse to sin. Grace is that crutch you need when you fail..... john wrote that we should sin not but if we do we have a advocate . a true Born again child of God will return to the Lord..just remember one thing we are not the judge. Christ is besides i had rather not take a chance to find out if one can.. stay the course press toward the mark of the high calling. keep looking toward Christ the author and finisher of our faith.. jude tells us.He is able to keep you from falling. so why worry about it?

 

[farouk]

I love that verse in Jude: 'able to keep you' (Jude 24).

Hebrews 7.25 says: 'able to save'.

He is able to save and able to keep!

Glory to His Name!

 

[heymikey80]

Dude, what does this quote from Amos have to do with those of the Exodus? The Exodus was hundreds of years before that. Did those in the wilderness eat manna? If so they relied on God. Did they drink of the rock? If so they relied on God etc, etc, etc. They put the blood on their door posts so that that death angel would pass them by, they relied on God. These weren't some people who never trusted or believed in God. These are people who at one time put their lives in God's hands and later turned away. This is what Paul is warning his readers against.

Dude, did you read the context? This was about the Exodus.

Are you saying God forgot, when He delivered this message through Amos?

Did you present Me with sacrifices and grain offerings in the wilderness for forty years, O house of Israel? 26 You also carried along Sikkuth your king and Kiyyun, your images, the star of your gods which you made for yourselves. Amos 5:25-26 ESV

God's saying they brought along house gods in the Exodus. That would make perfect sense, granted that the Israelites almost went for bull worship at Sinai, which was a common worship theme in Egypt (as well as Palestine, but ... they hadn't been in Palestine for generations).

So: you asked whether I really believed the Exodus Israelites didn't rely on God.

I quoted God as saying the Exodus Israelites didn't rely on God, but remained with split loyalties.

In point of fact I can get a lot more specific about this split loyalty from the Exodus account itself. But God's explicit declaration at Amos 5:25-26 demands such a conclusion. It's what God said.

Or was Amos putting words in God's mouth? Was he a false prophet? No? Then it's what God said.