Christ Jesus came into the world to save ALL sinners

[SolaScriptura]

Who isn't understanding who? I thanked you for your correction.

I also said I "fundamentally" agreed with you.

But your construct still fails to save all in the world who believe. You leave out the dead. Peter did not:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Jesus Christ DIED for the entire human race, that does NOT mean that the entire human race will be saved!

ALL sinners must FIRST repent of their sins and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and only then they will be in heaven

 

[Little Owl]

that salvation requires water baptism?

Wrong member. My remarks did not refer at all to water baptism.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Scripture tells us,if we consider it contextually,that Jesus came to save God's Elect. Those God calls to himself. And those, as Paul tells us, cannot understand this unless Holy Spirit (God) enters into the natural man/woman and changes their consciousness so to understand those things of God that are otherwise considered foolishness by them.

And those ones,Gods Elect, were chosen by God before the creation,foundation, of the world. Their names written in the Lamb's Book of Eternal Life before the creation of the world.

Jesus told his Disciples,they did not choose him. Jesus chose them.

We choose day to day what we want to do in life. God tells us he sets our steps.

God has dominion over his creation. He is Sovereign.
We need to be saved because God made it so.
We are only chosen by God to be saved because God chose whom to save before this world was made.

Please clarify. On another thread you said all aborted fetus' are saved. Now you say only the elect are saved. So you must believe all aborted fetus' are "the elect". Isn't it odd the "elect" get the abortion treatment, but not the "non-elect". How do you explain that?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus Christ DIED for the entire human race, that does NOT mean that the entire human race will be saved!

ALL sinners must FIRST repent of their sins and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and only then they will be in heaven

I already said I fundamentally agree, but the apostle Peter contradicts your limiting that to the living:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

 

[SolaScriptura]

I already said I fundamentally agree, but the apostle Peter contradicts your limiting that to the living:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

are you saying that people can be saved/born again after they die?

 

[Alfred Persson]

are you saying that people can be saved/born again after they die?

Technically, no. The dead can't cross the gulf and join Abraham and the redeemed in "third heaven". They must remain in Hades. But God the Holy Spirit envelopes them, protects them from the torments of hades while they "living according to God in the Spirit":

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

When humans die they are judged if Christ's sacrifice for the sins applies to them. If they committed "eternal sins" like accepting the Mark of the Beast, the answer is no. But if they died ignorant of Christ and didn't commit eternal sins while alive, they are given the chance to repent and believe. All who "pass this judgment" then "eagerly wait" for Christ's second appearance, for salvation from Hades. Christ appeared at the end of the ages so His sacrifice could apply to EVERYONE born since the foundation of the world, including Adam and Eve:

24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 RPTE)


Christ died "for the many who would believe", not just the Elect only.

So technically, no one is born again in hades. They wait for Christ's Second coming FOR SALVATION. They rise with the church, fully changed in a twinkling of an eye, given resurrection bodies just like Christ and the church has.

13 But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 RPTE)

Notice the detail most miss. Christ brings Abraham and the redeemed WITH HIM, but included in the resurrection, are those in Hades who also believe in Him and eagerly wait His coming FOR SALVATION. All the dead in Christ rise first, then the Church alive at that time.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Technically, no. The dead can't cross the gulf and join Abraham and the redeemed in "third heaven". They must remain in Hades. But God the Holy Spirit envelopes them, protects them from the torments of hades while they "living according to God in the Spirit":

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

When humans die they are judged if Christ's sacrifice for the sins applies to them. If they committed "eternal sins" like accepting the Mark of the Beast, the answer is no. But if they died ignorant of Christ and didn't commit eternal sins while alive, they are given the chance to repent and believe. All who "pass this judgment" then "eagerly wait" for Christ's second appearance, for salvation from Hades. Christ appeared at the end of the ages so His sacrifice could apply to EVERYONE born since the foundation of the world, including Adam and Eve:

24 For Christ hasn't entered into holy places made with hands, which are representations of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest enters into the holy place year by year with blood not his own,
26 or else he must have suffered often since the foundation of the world. But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 RPTE)


Christ died "for the many who would believe", not just the Elect only.

So technically, no one is born again in hades. They wait for Christ's Second coming and rise with the church, fully changed in a twinkling of an eye, given resurrection bodies just like Christ and the church has.

13 But we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you do not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18 RPTE)

Notice the detail most miss. Christ brings Abraham and the redeemed WITH HIM, but included in the resurrection, are those in Hades who also believe in Him and eagerly wait His coming FOR SALVATION. All the dead in Christ rise first, then the Church alive at that time.

Hebrews 9:27

And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment

all humans will die, unless Jesus Returns first, and then comes The Judgement

after death there is no "second chance" for salvation, as is very clear in the Account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, but eternal life or eternal punishment/death

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hebrews 9:27

And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment

all humans will die, unless Jesus Returns first, and then comes The Judgement

after death there is no "second chance" for salvation, as is very clear in the Account of the Rich Man and Lazarus, but eternal life or eternal punishment/death

That's a violation of "sola scriptura". It inserts something "not scripture" into the text. The "judgment" occurs after death, and many of those who go through it, then "eagerly wait" for Christ's second appearing:

27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 RPTE)
Many report they went through this "judgment/life review" after they died, but were then revived.

From frame 20:00 on its relevant to out discussion.

 

[SolaScriptura]

That's a violation of "sola scriptura". It inserts something "not scripture" into the text. The "judgment" occurs after death, and many of those who go through it, then "eagerly wait" for Christ's second appearing:

27 Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, without sin, to those who are eagerly waiting for him for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 RPTE)
Many report they went through this "judgment/life review" after they died, but were then revived.

From frame 21:00 on its relevant to out discussion.

this needs a new thread as the OP is not about this

 

[Alfred Persson]

this needs a new thread as the OP is not about this

I agree, both times. God saves more than the Elect, He saves all who believe. That this includes those who believe in the Afterlife, is beyond your OP. Just thought I'd introduce you to the possibility you haven't considered the entire picture, only parts of it. Calvin's limited atonement is a horrible concept.

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

endtimenews.net

 

[SolaScriptura]

Calvin's limited atonement is a horrible concept

John Calvin taught that Jesus Christ Died for the entire human race

 

[Alfred Persson]

John Calvin taught that Jesus Christ Died for the entire human race

That doesn't explain his belief Christ’s death was sufficient for the salvation of every human being, but was effective only for the elect.

The value and merit of Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross is capable of atoning for the sins of the entire world, but only the elect are saved. God had predestined some individuals (the elect) to salvation and others to damnation (the reprobate).

While "limited atonement" became a technical term after Calvin, it springs from his position.

Why are you arguing FOR Calvin now? Did you convert just because I revealed a dimension of God's love and justice you reject?

It truly is amazing. Christians go to great lengths to deny God is unjust, while proposing salvation is offered only to the living, leaving billions and billions of people in the dark who lived before Christ came.

Somehow the apostles never thought about those who died unbelieving, so salvation is only for the living.

How unthinking would that be when just about everyone they knew as a child, had died unbelievers in Christ?

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

If you post the "classic proto-Catholic" belief there are no second chances, we can discuss it here in theology and perhaps get some response from others. If I post the opposing view it will be cast into the outer darkness of the "Unothodox forum" and few will read.

Go for it. Prove you are right, I'm wrong. Make my day. Start an OP directly attacking my position. Lets see how much scripture you have in your "sola".

 

[SolaScriptura]

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spi

That doesn't explain his belief Christ’s death was sufficient for the salvation of every human being, but was effective only for the elect.

The value and merit of Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross is capable of atoning for the sins of the entire world, but only the elect are saved. God had predestined some individuals (the elect) to salvation and others to damnation (the reprobate).

While "limited atonement" became a technical term after Calvin, it springs from his position.

Why are you arguing FOR Calvin now? Did you convert just because I revealed a dimension of God's love and justice you reject?

It truly is amazing. Christians go to great lengths to deny God is unjust, while proposing salvation is offered only to the living, leaving billions and billions of people in the dark who lived before Christ came.

Somehow the apostles never thought about those who died unbelieving, so salvation is only for the living.

How unthinking would that be when just about everyone they knew as a child, had died unbelievers in Christ?

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

If you post the "classic proto-Catholic" belief there are no second chances, we can discuss it here in theology and perhaps get some response from others. If I post the opposing view it will be cast into the outer darkness of the "Unothodox forum" and few will read.

Go for it. Prove you are right, I'm wrong. Make my day. Start an OP directly attacking my position. Lets see how much scripture you have in your "sola".

you are just rambling some nonsense now!

 

[Alfred Persson]

you are just rambling some nonsense now!

Just as I thought. A whole lotta of "sola", and no scripture.

Your theory of atonement failed to realize the universal scope of Christ's sacrifice. God so loved the Kosmos, everyone in it including the dead, they all have the opportunity to believe:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world (kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (kosmos) to condemn the world(kosmos), but that the world(kosmos) through Him might be saved. (Jn. 3:14-17 NKJ)

Kosmos is repeated four times for emphasis, like four points of the compass denotes the entire globe.

 

[Alfred Persson]

you are just rambling some nonsense now!

Your theory of atonement failed to realize the universal scope of Christ's sacrifice. God so loved the Kosmos, everyone in it including the dead, they all have the opportunity to believe:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world (kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (kosmos) to condemn the world(kosmos), but that the world(kosmos) through Him might be saved. (Jn. 3:14-17 NKJ)

Kosmos is repeated four times for emphasis, like four points of the compass denotes the entire globe. Your theory of "limited atonement" left a big part of the Kosmos out, the realm of human dead. Billions are there, yet you insist the propitation of Christ does not cover the entire Kosmos:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (Kosmos). (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

So your theory is just modified Calvinism. Although you expand atonement beyond a select few, you still select a portion of humanity, and leave out the rest. The very scriptures you cite against Calvinism's limited atonement, can be cited against your theory. The irony of that shouldn't escape anyone.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Your theory of atonement failed to realize the universal scope of Christ's sacrifice. God so loved the Kosmos, everyone in it including the dead, they all have the opportunity to believe:

14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world (kosmos) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world (kosmos) to condemn the world(kosmos), but that the world(kosmos) through Him might be saved. (Jn. 3:14-17 NKJ)

Kosmos is repeated four times for emphasis, like four points of the compass denotes the entire globe. Your theory of "limited atonement" left a big part of the Kosmos out, the realm of human dead. Billions are there, yet you insist the propitation of Christ does not cover the entire Kosmos:

And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (Kosmos). (1 Jn. 2:2 NKJ)

So your theory is just modified Calvinism. Although you expand atonement beyond a select few, you still select a portion of humanity, and leave out the rest. The very scriptures you cite against Calvinism's limited atonement, can be cited against your theory. The irony of that shouldn't escape anyone.

 

[Who Me]

Please explain

There is no universal salvation of every person, only of those who have accepted Jesus's offer of salvation will be saved.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Evidently, the apostle Peter disagrees with you:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Those "dead" were alive when the prophets of old spoke to them by the same Spirit that quickened Jesus. (1 Peter 3:18)
1 Peter 3:19..."By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"
1 Peter 1:10-12 refers to it too..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; "

Once you are dead, your judgement is set.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Once you are dead, your judgement is set.

Not according to scripture, the book of life is opened because some raised up from Hades and Death WERE written the book of life. ONLY those not written were lost:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15 NKJ)

If all raised from Hades were condemned, the book of life would have remained shut.

 

[JLB]

John Calvin taught that Jesus Christ Died for the entire human race

Yet, Calvinist’s teach that Jesus Christ died for just the elect.