Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10

[Hopeful 2]

I see a difference between acquitted and truly innocent.

Me too !
Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Is God sinless ?
I think so, and Jesus commanded us to be like Him.

Gee, I wonder when was the last time I heard something like this? "...your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

If obedience to God equates to spiritual blindness to you, I invite you to rejoice with me in obedience to God.

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

God promised an heir.
God didn't promise anyone by name.

God did promise an heir through SARAH (Gen. 18:10), not Hagar.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Me too !

No you don't.

Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?

Nevertheless, all who're reborn in spirit were originally born of Adam. Nobody is born of Holy Spirit from the very beginning like Jesus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Gee, I wonder when was the last time I heard something like this? "...your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Do you truly liken the devil's false promise to Adam to the commandment of Jesus Christ ????
Wow !

Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Amen to that.

God did promise an heir through SARAH (Gen. 18:10), not Hagar.

And God delivered.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No you don't.

Perhaps with a little more prayer and study, you too can understand it.

Nevertheless, all who're reborn in spirit were originally born of Adam. Nobody is born of Holy Spirit from the very beginning like Jesus.

True.
Now, answer the question...Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Perhaps with a little more prayer and study, you too can understand it.

I don't think you know the difference between acquitted and truly innocent. The woman who was caught in adultery was truly guilty of adultery, she was acquitted because Jesus essentially dismissed the case as a mistrial.

And God delivered.

And yet Abraham heeded Sarah's idea by mating with Hagar first.

Do you truly liken the devil's false promise to Adam to the commandment of Jesus Christ ????
Wow !

I only liken that to your tone due to your abuse of Matt. 5:48.

Now, answer the question...Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?

Can you see a difference between blameless and "sinlessly perfect"? You answer mine, I answer yours. You don't answer mine, I don't answer yours.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I don't think you know the difference between acquitted and truly innocent. The woman who was caught in adultery was truly guilty of adultery, she was acquitted because Jesus essentially dismissed the case as a mistrial.

Good, than you do know the difference.

And yet Abraham heeded Sarah's idea by mating with Hagar first.

Yep.
Are you saying that broke God's covenant with Abe ?

I only liken that to your tone due to your abuse of Matt. 5:48.

What is written is written, in spite of what you feel about it.

Can you see a difference between blameless and "sinlessly perfect"?

There is no difference.
Every man, perfectly obedient to God, is blameless.
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

You answer mine, I answer yours. You don't answer mine, I don't answer yours.

Go ahead..."Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?"

 

[leroy]

It is also mentioned in 1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Are we still subject to earthly death, friend? Do you believe your mortal body is gonna fail one day? If so, you're not permenantly "turned from sin," for the wages of sin is death, and death the last enemy is not defeated - yet.

Neither does he command us preach a heresy of "sinless perfection." As long as you stick to this heresy and see it as "obedience to God", your role model is not Jesus, but the Pharisees.

Hello Carry,
I would like to try to reconcile this dispute between you and Hopeful.
Let's look at 1 John which you have quoted and see if a little context can help, starting in verse 5.
5) "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6) "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:"
7) "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.”

John clearly states that believers are those who walk in the light as God does, which means they are walking in obedience.

If one is violating their conscience or dwelling on thoughts suggested by a familiar spirit they are walking in darkness, they are not Christians.
SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT CHRISTIAN VICTORY IS THAT SHORT SPACE OF TIME BETWEEN EACH SIN.

8) "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.”

We find that those who walk in darkness are deceived as to their lost condition. They have a propensity to make excuses for their failings in life. “I'm only human, and nobody is perfect.”. These are those who claim to have no sin for they see themselves as a good person! But John offers a solution...

8) "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
9) "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

Clearly John is talking about two very different kinds of people.

God wants to deal in judgement of sin in a very real and practical way. Since it began He has been looking for those who will sit down and reason together with Him. That is why He passes sin down from generation to generation. He is searching for those who will say the buck stops here. He is looking for those who will work through it in a very exposing and intelligent way. He wants us to consider sin as He reviews the book of our remembrance. He wants our agreement about these things which He is investigating. He wants our judgement to agree with His and as this is done we are being covered in His blood (His life). This is how He blots them from existence. Also this is how our repentance deepens.
The word confess in verse 9 does not mean “O God please forgive me.” It simply means to agree with God.
"When we walk in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship with Him and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin."

It is only while we are "walking in the light" that we are able to see as He sees. He can show us plague spots in our character where perhaps we have been insensitive with some folk. Yes this is sin, but heretofore unrecognized by us. Our growth in Love is ever upward, with angels at our sides to bear us up and keep us from known sin. If we are often tripping over the same sin we are not moving upwards, we are walking in circles.
In the light we can face these things without making excuses. It is as though the Father picks us up and puts us in his lap and places his glasses astride our nose and we can see these imperfections of character as he sees them, we can see as never before that there is some thing ungodly about the fallen nature from which Father says we have been delivered. His faith sees us as the finished product. If He looked at us as imperfect that is all we will ever be, for His gaze is creative.
In Romans 6 it says that the old man was crucified that the body of sin might be destroyed. As we are walking in the light and God reveals these things it is as though we involved in an autopsy of the body of sin. We are looking at the corpse and how we had agreement with dark spirits which animated this dead thing. In doing so we put another nail in the coffin. This is what I mean when I say God deals with sin in an intelligent way and he needs our cooperation to blot it out. Often people think if we confess then God forgives and says, “Okay, try not to do it again.” This brings no deliverance from sin. In confession or agreement it is exposed in the light and burned up. Changes occur in our life that we could never accomplish through human effort.
This is the everlasting Gospel. This is the "better thing” mentioned in Hebrews 11:39,40 that perfects our character as well as it perfects those who have gone before, upon who's shoulders we are standing. Satan has labored with much success to substitute a false gospel which keeps the soul on a treadmill of sin and repent while he casts a veil over the true gospel.

So the conclusion that I have come to is that the Son of God has given me the gift of the second death for the fallen nature, yet I'm still alive, but it's not really me who is living, it is Someone else who is literally, actually, factually, living in me. It is Someone who is alive forevermore and sin and death have no dominion over Him. He is living in me to both will and to do according to the Father’s good pleasure. That is why John wrote, "one who is born of God, (born again from the dead, born again out of the garden tomb), does not commit sin. For God's Seed, (His divine Son who lives and abides forever), remains in him, (living and moving and finding His being within that soul). That is why He cannot sin, because He is born of God (from the second death)." 1 Peter 1:23, 1 John 3:9, & Acts 17:28 Compiled with my personal amplification.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yep.
Are you saying that broke God's covenant with Abe ?

That was his worldly thinking and his mistrust of God's covenant. That covenant was broken at mount Sinai when Israel worshipped the golden calf, that's another topic for another day.

What is written is written, in spite of what you feel about it.

The devil quotes Scripture too, you know it's the devil quoting it when you see that he pulls it out of context to make a point. Planned Parenthood can quote, "it would have been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24), but that doesn't justify abortion nor make it a command of Jesus.

There is no difference.
Every man, perfectly obedient to God, is blameless.
"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

Then you're too blind to see.

Go ahead..."Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?"

I corrected you on this before, we're the soil, gospel's the seed, Jesus is the sower. Seed doesn't change the soil condition, soil nourishes the seed.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So the conclusion that I have come to is that the Son of God has given me the gift of the second death for the fallen nature, yet I'm still alive, but it's not really me who is living, it is Someone else who is literally, actually, factually, living in me. It is Someone who is alive forevermore and sin and death have no dominion over Him. He is living in me to both will and to do according to the Father’s good pleasure. That is why John wrote, "one who is born of God, (born again from the dead, born again out of the garden tomb), does not commit sin. For God's Seed, (His divine Son who lives and abides forever), remains in him, (living and moving and finding His being within that soul). That is why He cannot sin, because He is born of God (from the second death)." 1 Peter 1:23, 1 John 3:9, & Acts 17:28 Compiled with my personal amplification.

That's your wishful thinking, first making up a separate group from 1 Jn. 1; second redefining "confess"; third self deception of sinlessness. If you truly believe that you "does not commit sin" just because you perceive yourself as born again, then I dare you, don't ever pray, "forgive my transgressions, for we forgive the transgressions of our enemies." (Matt. 5:12). Cross this in your bible, erase it from your memory, never, ever cite it again, rebuke any born again Christian who cites it, because you're not supposed to have any transgressions, it doesn't apply to you any more. Or does it?

The truth is, we're living in a sinful and broken world, what you don't consider a sin is a sin by God's standard, see post #69. This fallen nature is always a part of us until we're dead and resurrected when the Lord returns from heaven. Go read 1 Cor. 15:50-54, and tell me, have you heard the last trumpet sound? Has the Lord Jesus returned? Are you physically raised from the grave? Have you already put on immortality? You can answer "yes" to all four or "not yet" to all four, but you can't answer "not yet" to the first two and "yes" to the other two, because they're linked, it's a package deal.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That was his worldly thinking and his mistrust of God's covenant. That covenant was broken at mount Sinai when Israel worshipped the golden calf, that's another topic for another day.

OK.

The devil quotes Scripture too, you know it's the devil quoting it when you see that he pulls it out of context to make a point. Planned Parenthood can quote, "it would have been good for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24), but that doesn't justify abortion nor make it a command of Jesus.

As I said..."in spite of what you feel about it".

Then you're too blind to see.

I rejoice in what you call blindness.
If one is not obedient to God, they are not blameless.

I corrected you on this before, we're the soil, gospel's the seed, Jesus is the sower. Seed doesn't change the soil condition, soil nourishes the seed.

I will ask again..."Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?"

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

As I said..."in spite of what you feel about it".

As I said, the devil quotes Scripture too.

I rejoice in what you call blindness.
If one is not obedient to God, they are not blameless.

Good, you're not.

I will ask again..."Can you see a difference between those born of Adam's seed and those reborn of God's seed ?"

Yes. Can you?

 

[Hopeful 2]

As I said, the devil quotes Scripture too.

But not for righteousness' sake.

Good, you're not.

Our opinions differ.

Yes. Can you?

I can.
So, what is the difference between them ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But not for righteousness' sake.

Good, you admitted it. Quoting Scripture out of proper context.

Our opinions differ.

Then agree to disagree.

So, what is the difference between them ?

Don't ask a question with a preconceived notion.

 

[Tenchi]

Dear Hopeful,
I don't care much what some might consider. I launched this thread to continue the debate we had on the thread “John Calvin's Heretical Teaching”. Are you going to consider my last answer to you (2nd post in this thread) and give me an answer? Or should I consider that it is true that you suppress the scripture when it refutes your theology?

Hopeful 2 has been corrected from Scripture often and extensively in many other threads on the topic of sinless perfection, but s/he will not - indeed, at this point, I suspect s/he cannot - acknowledge the error of this doctrine. The more one invests in a thing, the more of one's heart it comes to possess and thus the harder it is to give it up (Matthew 6:21). This is the case with Hopeful 2, I believe, who has invested much time and effort in defending the false doctrine of sinless perfection. S/he has overextended the "seed" analogy, in particular, maintaining a rigid parallel between the seeds of a plant and the "seed" of the Holy Spirit (who is not a seed, of course, but a Person).

Like all those who misrepresent God's word, Hopeful 2 refuses to engage thoroughly and honestly with Scripture but offers only facile and specious replies to those verses/passages of the Bible that confound the sinless perfection error. Sometimes, it seems like s/he is just trolling, actually - perhaps out of boredom, "stirring the pot."

Unfortunately, there are those who will read Hopeful 2's remarks and, being spiritually immature and ignorant of God's word, will be moved under the bondage all false doctrines impose on those who take them up. And so, there must be an endless series of discussions about this silly but toxic error on CF.net. Ah, well...

 

[Hopeful 2]

Good, you admitted it.

I admitted nothing.

Quoting Scripture out of proper context.

That is an incomplete sentence.

Then agree to disagree.

LOL

Don't ask a question with a preconceived notion.

You are afraid to answer.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I admitted nothing.

That is an incomplete sentence.

LOL

You are afraid to answer.

Drop it, man. Read Tenchi's post and grow up.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Drop it, man. Read Tenchi's post and grow up.

Too afraid to answer ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful 2 has been corrected from Scripture often and extensively in many other threads on the topic of sinless perfection,

Man's efforts to legitimize sin in the body of Christ only serve satan.

but s/he will not - indeed, at this point, I suspect s/he cannot - acknowledge the error of this doctrine. The more one invests in a thing, the more of one's heart it comes to possess and thus the harder it is to give it up (Matthew 6:21). This is the case with Hopeful 2, I believe, who has invested much time and effort in defending the false doctrine of sinless perfection. S/he has overextended the "seed" analogy, in particular, maintaining a rigid parallel between the seeds of a plant and the "seed" of the Holy Spirit (who is not a seed, of course, but a Person).

Like all those who misrepresent God's word, Hopeful 2 refuses to engage thoroughly and honestly with Scripture but offers only facile and specious replies to those verses/passages of the Bible that confound the sinless perfection error. Sometimes, it seems like s/he is just trolling, actually - perhaps out of boredom, "stirring the pot."

Unfortunately, there are those who will read Hopeful 2's remarks and, being spiritually immature and ignorant of God's word, will be moved under the bondage all false doctrines impose on those who take them up. And so, there must be an endless series of discussions about this silly but toxic error on CF.net. Ah, well...

Perfect obedience to God is not a false doctrine.
In fact, it is commanded by both God, (Lev 11:44), and Jesus Christ. (Matt 5:48)
One of the thing all false doctrines accommodate is more sin.
How can preaching perfect obedience to God accommodate sin ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Too afraid to answer ?

"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."