Good scrip'.
Here is another good one...
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10
- Thread starter JJonas
- Start date
Here is another good one...
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
Carry-: That's your wishful thinking, first making up a separate group from 1 Jn. 1;
can you explain why it says that there are those who walk in the light as God does & those who walk in darkness?
John further writes of "two groups" in chapter 3:8-10
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
You write of crossing some scripture from the bible. You might digest Romans 6. If you cannot accept the plain word of God then you have in effect crossed these promises from your bible. I pray that you do not do so. This is what God has given us through the gift of His Son. This is what God believes, should we through unbelief call Him a liar? This effectually is treason.
How shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein. Our old man and the body of sin was destroyed, not will be but it is dead and destroyed. Can you accept the word over your religious logic. Sin shall have no dominion over you. We are dead to sin and alive to God. This is so clear. If we believe what God believes it will bring that very promise into us. According to your faith be it unto you. The flesh, carnal mind cannot make this happen. Living by faith is simply believing what God believes. Don't let the devil steal this away. Let your disbelief be consumed by the power of God's word. The same creative power that brought the world into existence is in His promises, all that is required is that we believe. He is faithful and does not lie. He is able to keep you from falling and present you faultless. Jude 24
Sinless perfection is a distractive term and sends one off on a tangent of trying to fix the flesh. But one who takes hold of His word and believes that God will perform what he has promised Life will flow into you. "And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work." 2 Cor 9:8
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" Phil. 1:6
You write about 'seed' I would like to point something out in scripture.
Galatians 3:16 clearly states that Christ and the Seed are one and the same.
The Seed = Christ & Christ = the Seed. Can we agree on that?
Now read the last verse in that chapter...
"...If you be Christ's then YOU are Abraham's seed"!!! Seed = Christ (one who is Christ which means 'anointed';) and what are we anointed with? The very Son of God Himself. "This is the record that God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He that the Son hath life and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." 1 John 5:11,12
Carry_Your_Name
Member
- Oct 2, 2023
- 2,847
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Those are the Judas element in the church, the tares among the wheats, this is nothing new, a tree is known by its fruits. But by no means does this support "sinless perfection", we're tempted and tried constantly, just as the Lord was. I told you before that what you don't consider a sin is a sin by God's standard, we're always surrounded by sinful people in a sinful world, those who walk in light are forgiven of their sin and empowered to overcome sin, that's certainly not absence of sin. Church as the body of Christ is not sinless, otherwise there wouldn't be the great apostasy which we're witnessing today with our very eyes. You fail to understand that John was address the church collectively as ONE GROUP, he wasn't addressing each individuals.
Romans 6 taught that we're no longer slaves to sin, but again, that's NOT absence of sin. In the next chapter Paul elaborated his struggle with sin. If the old man was "done away with", then why did Paul still have this struggle with the flesh? Did he who taught us to "walk in the newness of life" not walk in the newness of life? Was he whose old man was supposedly crucified with Christ still struggling with his old man? Why is evil still "present with me"? The Scripture does not contradict itself.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:21-25)
It is appalling that you have the audacity to accuse me of not accepting the plain word of God, and yet it is your and Hopeful's false doctrine of "sinless perfection" that is truly at odds with the plain word of God. Please enlighten me, sir, why should we pray for the Lord to "deliver us from evil" and "forgive our transgressions“, if there's no evil for us to be delivered from and no transgression that requires forgiveness. And keep in mind that this prayer is the MODEL of all prayers. By teaching "sinless perfection" you're effectually making the Lord's prayer a lie.
- Thread starter
- #145
Aren't you doing what you accuse Carry_Your_Name to do, namely to not accept the "plain word of God”? Indeed, the word of God testifies in many places that although being believers, we all stumble in many things (James 3:2a)! Please read 2nd post of the thread for such references: https://christianforums.net/threads...1-4-and-colossians-3-5-10.104037/post-1859094
Tenchi
Member
- Oct 10, 2022
- 3,389
- 1,675
??? I don't understand what point it is, exactly, that you're trying to make here...
So, here's Galatians 3:16 in its immediate context:
Galatians 3:11-18
11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.”
12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.”
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
15 To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified.
16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
What's Paul talking about here? That righteousness should come to all who trust in Christ as their Savior and Lord, both Jew and Gentile, not through the keeping of God's law. In Christ the promise to Abraham is fulfilled (Genesis 22:17-18) and it cannot be annulled by OT Mosaic laws through which the Jews had come to believe righteousness could be obtained. Is Paul occupied with the "seed" of Abraham? Not particularly. He simply points out the "seed" - or offspring - of the promise of God to Abraham was Christ. Paul's chief focus in this passage was upon the means by which Jews and Gentiles could be made properly righteous before God.
Galatians 3:19-29
19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
Paul continues in the section above to make the case for justification by faith in Christ, not law-keeping. By "putting on Christ," Jew and Greek, male and female, slave and free can all be made righteous, equal and the offspring of Abraham. Paul's main interest appears to me to be in the matter of the means by which a person is justified before God and thus made acceptable to Him.
Tenchi
Member
- Oct 10, 2022
- 3,389
- 1,675
This is a Strawman characterization of what those who don't hold your sinless perfection error believe. I no more "legitimize sin" by acknowledging that it exists in truly born-again people than acknowledging that race car drivers sometimes smash up their cars "legitimizes" their doing so. When I acknowledge that race car drivers have accidents, I'm not indicating that they should have accidents, only that they do and that accidents can't be fully avoided when racing at high speeds in close quarters with other cars doing the same. Likewise, when I acknowledge that a Christian sins, I'm not approving or recommending that they should, I'm merely stating an obvious fact.
Yes, it is. 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 5, 6, 11, Galatians 3:1-3, Romans 6, 14, 1 John 1:8-10, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 5:11-13; Revelation 2-3, etc.
All of these places in Scripture describe born-again believers who, through ignorance or willful rebellion toward God, are guilty of sin. There is, then, no biblical basis for holding that sinless perfection is necessary to being a child of God. Even Paul and John indicated that a totally sin-free existence, at least in their experience, was not achievable.
Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Well, all of the OT is one long recounting of how poorly God's own Chosen People did in obeying God's command to "be holy, for I am holy." And yet, they remained His Chosen People.
Christ's impossible standard issued in the middle of his Sermon on the Mount was given to eradicate any hope in his listeners that they could be the person he was describing. Nothing in the Mosaic Law could enable them to meet such a standard. As Paul explained,
Romans 7:5-10
5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.
10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.
It was because the law, good as it was, could do nothing but condemn people and establish a standard none of them could meet, that Jesus came to fulfill the law for them and atone for all their sin on the cross. His remark in Matthew 5:48 was a way of highlighting to his audience how impossible it was that, under the Old Covenant, God could be properly satisfied with their conduct.
Is false doctrine itself not sinful? Yes. Is sinless perfection a false doctrine? Yes, it is. Therefore, it is itself an accommodation of sin. The sinless perfection false doctrine also produces fear, legalistic self-effort and hypocrisy - all of which God prohibits in His word (Philippians 4:6; 1 John 4:16-19; Galatians 3:1-3; Galatians 5:16, 25; Matthew 23). It is ironic that in championing falsely the idea of sinless perfection this doctrine contradicts itself.
See above.
No, it isn't.
What do all those who continue to lobby against perfect obedience to God have in common ?
They are all servants of sin.
That is a poor simile.
By saying that perfect obedience to God is impossible, one is saying that there is sin in God and in His Son Jesus Christ.
We are supposedly "in Christ", so if we are still sinners, there is sin in Jesus.
This just can't be.
By saying there is sin in those reborn of God's seed, one is saying that God's seed can bring forth the fruit of the devil.
That just can't be.
By saying all sin, even after conversion from darkness to light and from the power of satan and unto God, one legitimizes sin in the body of Christ.
If they were truly born again from God's seed, they wouldn't be manifesting the devil's fruit.
Their sin shows that their repentance from sin was a lie to God.
They are unrepentant children of the devil.
Paul is giving the the chance to truly repent, or they will be cast away in the end.
The only thing Paul had yet to "attain" was his resurrection, (v 11), and new vessel..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself." (Phil 3:21)
If you were correct, who is he referring to in verse 15..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
Verses 6, 8, and 10 address those walking in darkness...which is sin. (Pro 4:19)
Sinners can't honestly say that they have fellowship with God or that they have no sin.
Those walking in the light, which is God, can honestly say both.
Those walking in Christ have fellowship with the Father and don't commit sin.
True.
Do you really think God would require His son to die so we could remain rebellious and hateful towards Him ?
That is one pathetic interpretation of the love of God.
What the OT's men in the "flesh" could not accomplish, the NT's men in the Spirit can, perfectly !
Correct, but new we have a better standard.
It is written..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:3-6)
You seem unaware of verse 5's referral to a past time: a time still in and walking after the "flesh".
That verse sets the stage for his continued narrative of unsuccessfully trying to serve God by keeping the Law.
If man could have been found qualified for eternal life while still committing sin, as you suppose is now happening, why didn't God just make us all Jews ?
God has freed us from sin.
Jesus said..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:32)
Free of what ?
Jesus said..."Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:34)
The truth is that we can be free of committing sin.
Hello J and Carry
'Sinless perfection' is a mantra of the devil. Used as an epithet and by repeating it again and again the carnal mind will find some sense of security by rejecting it. The enemy of your soul uses it as a tactic to put an unsavory label on the gift of God and the user of such a label is deceived thereby.
The Lover of our soul came to save us from sin not in sin.
Is not there's something deep within your heart that awakens a longing for a real divine deliverance from the discouragement of violating your conscience? Isn't there a hunger to be off the treadmill of sinning and repenting?
The life of the Son of God has been offered to us that we might stand in this world as a rebuke to Satan's kingdom. If God can keep Mary's son from falling why can't He keep you?
J wrote: "Indeed, the word of God testifies in many places that although being believers, we all stumble in many things"
What you have quoted is human history within God's book. What I have quoted is God's WORD. There is a marked difference!
I have share His personal promises to us, of what He has done and what He will do for our redemption. You quote the problem, I simply share His solution. You share failure, I share redemption and victory. There is a huge difference. Come up higher friend.
I was once like you. I could not believe that God would keep me from sin because I had been emersed in a weak religion and filled with disbelief. However, when I saw clearly that a life in Christ was one of continuous victory over sin, I also saw that to have the life of the Son of God, mine had to go! Yet, I could not die. I could not have what I now believed to be true no matter how much I prayed and asked for it, it was still out of reach. I finally was reconciled to being lost and I was ok with it. God had done what he could, and yet I was un-savable. In total resignation I gave up. "if You think you can do something with my heart help Yourself. I'm a lost man." Like a drowning man going down for the last time. It was then that He did for me what I could not do for myself. It was with God alone, my life changed without any effort on my part. He did it all. After two weeks of living a different life that was full of words to my soul like , "Did you notice that you didn't do _______? again and again it happened. I was bewildered with it all. Then I saw a friend who had tried to share this life with me, as I have been sharing with you. I told him, "I don't know what is going on with me!" He asked me, "Over the past two weeks have you done anything outside the known will of God? Have you sinned?" I was in total shock, for I could not bring anything to mind that I could call sin, and my life before that was full of sin. I was now even more bewildered. I felt as if the wind had been taken out of me. In total disbelief I quietly and reverently said, "No." His response was. "Well, you've been born again." "WHAT? ... How can that be?" I thought I was lost and now he is telling me that I was born again? I said, "But I didn't do anything!" a while later It came to me that when a baby is born he does not 'do anything', he is simply pushed from darkness into the light. God has been faithful to keep me as He has promised while educating me through the trials that were necessary to help me see subtle errors that obscure His forgiveness towards others and that I am not a victim. The truth on these matters have made aware of deceptions on how evil spirits work, which has made me even more free.
Many fear complete surrender, for the cross that leads to Life requires the death of their pet sins. They have to give up their right to self-determination and that's more than they can bear.
The short comings of biblical characters who are being corrected and rebuked for their failings you have proffered as a reason to make of none effect the power of God unto salvation. Yes people fail, people make mistakes. But these are not our example. Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Father has assured that his victory is ours. Doesn't this stir a hunger in you for something better?
Please don't find a false sense of comfort in pointing out the failings of others, thinking you are in good company. When you point to the failure of another and think that gives you an excuse, the devil laughs at God, "These are Your follower's? Is this the best You can do to vindicate your name?"
You can search the Bible from Abraham to David to Paul or Peter and find evidence to try to substantiate your belief that walking in the light and walking in darkness is an on again off again circumstance and the devil loves it.
I've heard wonderful sermons that talk about victory and the power of God and then they suck all the life out of the gospel message by adding the caveat, "That doesn't mean you're not going to sin, after all we're only human." This is a heresy straight from the pit. The true believer is a partaker of the divine nature and has escaped the corruption in this world. 2 Peter 1:4 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17
Daniel, of whom there is no record of disobedience, Fell on his face when He had a heavenly visitor. "...my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8 Isaiah experienced something very similar. Isaiah 6
There are those who would rather die than commit a known sin. Daniel and his companions are among them. One who is living in obedience has no sense of being anything other than a sinner saved by grace and who is totally dependent on God for everything. They are ever aware of the corruption that their humanity is capable of, should they turn away from the One who loves and keeps them. They see nothing good in themselves, the only goodness they have is in the Son who lives in them. They would never claim anything like sinless perfection. One who is subdued by the Love of God has seen the corpse in great detail ('the body of sin' ) and they know from what pit they have been rescued and there is no boasting.
'Sinless perfection' is a mantra of the devil. Used as an epithet and by repeating it again and again the carnal mind will find some sense of security by rejecting it. The enemy of your soul uses it as a tactic to put an unsavory label on the gift of God and the user of such a label is deceived thereby.
The Lover of our soul came to save us from sin not in sin.
Is not there's something deep within your heart that awakens a longing for a real divine deliverance from the discouragement of violating your conscience? Isn't there a hunger to be off the treadmill of sinning and repenting?
The life of the Son of God has been offered to us that we might stand in this world as a rebuke to Satan's kingdom. If God can keep Mary's son from falling why can't He keep you?
J wrote: "Indeed, the word of God testifies in many places that although being believers, we all stumble in many things"
What you have quoted is human history within God's book. What I have quoted is God's WORD. There is a marked difference!
I have share His personal promises to us, of what He has done and what He will do for our redemption. You quote the problem, I simply share His solution. You share failure, I share redemption and victory. There is a huge difference. Come up higher friend.
I was once like you. I could not believe that God would keep me from sin because I had been emersed in a weak religion and filled with disbelief. However, when I saw clearly that a life in Christ was one of continuous victory over sin, I also saw that to have the life of the Son of God, mine had to go! Yet, I could not die. I could not have what I now believed to be true no matter how much I prayed and asked for it, it was still out of reach. I finally was reconciled to being lost and I was ok with it. God had done what he could, and yet I was un-savable. In total resignation I gave up. "if You think you can do something with my heart help Yourself. I'm a lost man." Like a drowning man going down for the last time. It was then that He did for me what I could not do for myself. It was with God alone, my life changed without any effort on my part. He did it all. After two weeks of living a different life that was full of words to my soul like , "Did you notice that you didn't do _______? again and again it happened. I was bewildered with it all. Then I saw a friend who had tried to share this life with me, as I have been sharing with you. I told him, "I don't know what is going on with me!" He asked me, "Over the past two weeks have you done anything outside the known will of God? Have you sinned?" I was in total shock, for I could not bring anything to mind that I could call sin, and my life before that was full of sin. I was now even more bewildered. I felt as if the wind had been taken out of me. In total disbelief I quietly and reverently said, "No." His response was. "Well, you've been born again." "WHAT? ... How can that be?" I thought I was lost and now he is telling me that I was born again? I said, "But I didn't do anything!" a while later It came to me that when a baby is born he does not 'do anything', he is simply pushed from darkness into the light. God has been faithful to keep me as He has promised while educating me through the trials that were necessary to help me see subtle errors that obscure His forgiveness towards others and that I am not a victim. The truth on these matters have made aware of deceptions on how evil spirits work, which has made me even more free.
Many fear complete surrender, for the cross that leads to Life requires the death of their pet sins. They have to give up their right to self-determination and that's more than they can bear.
The short comings of biblical characters who are being corrected and rebuked for their failings you have proffered as a reason to make of none effect the power of God unto salvation. Yes people fail, people make mistakes. But these are not our example. Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Father has assured that his victory is ours. Doesn't this stir a hunger in you for something better?
Please don't find a false sense of comfort in pointing out the failings of others, thinking you are in good company. When you point to the failure of another and think that gives you an excuse, the devil laughs at God, "These are Your follower's? Is this the best You can do to vindicate your name?"
You can search the Bible from Abraham to David to Paul or Peter and find evidence to try to substantiate your belief that walking in the light and walking in darkness is an on again off again circumstance and the devil loves it.
I've heard wonderful sermons that talk about victory and the power of God and then they suck all the life out of the gospel message by adding the caveat, "That doesn't mean you're not going to sin, after all we're only human." This is a heresy straight from the pit. The true believer is a partaker of the divine nature and has escaped the corruption in this world. 2 Peter 1:4 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor 5:17
Daniel, of whom there is no record of disobedience, Fell on his face when He had a heavenly visitor. "...my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8 Isaiah experienced something very similar. Isaiah 6
There are those who would rather die than commit a known sin. Daniel and his companions are among them. One who is living in obedience has no sense of being anything other than a sinner saved by grace and who is totally dependent on God for everything. They are ever aware of the corruption that their humanity is capable of, should they turn away from the One who loves and keeps them. They see nothing good in themselves, the only goodness they have is in the Son who lives in them. They would never claim anything like sinless perfection. One who is subdued by the Love of God has seen the corpse in great detail ('the body of sin' ) and they know from what pit they have been rescued and there is no boasting.
Was Paul living a life of failure?
It is clear that chapter 6 is confronting license and in chapter 7 he addresses legalism. In chapter 8 he glorifies the gift of Christ and true victory.
In the early years of my experience and struggles with obedience I found some comfort as in Romans chapter 7 verses 14 through 25 it was clear that Paul too was having difficulties with obedience and since he was the greatest of apostles I could take comfort that I was in good company. Then one day I read the first eight chapters of Romans in one sitting and I was shocked with the illogical contradiction in my former beliefs. I had been taking things out of context. How could anyone write of such power offered in chapters 6&8 and still be caught up in the pathetic failures portrayed in chapter 7?
This set me on a search to understand the truth of the matter. To begin with it begs the question was Paul writing of his personal experience at the time or was he speaking of his previous life as Saul, the legalistic Pharisee, and using that as a teaching aide to address the problem of legalism in the church at Rome?
He writes of a "before and after” circumstance:
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. verses 5&6
Yes there was a time when Saul was in the flesh and came face to face with his dead experience in the brightness of holy light. As a legalistic Pharisee he knew he was a wretched man that needed deliverance from this body of death.
It was later in Paul's life, after three missionary journeys that he desired to go to Rome which motivated the writing of this letter. Shortly after writing it he was arrested in Jerusalem and was given an opportunity to speak to the leading Jewish ruler’s.
“Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." Acts 23:1
These words are quite a contradiction to his description in chapter 7. This is the evidence why I believe that Paul was not living in such abject failure but he was referring to a previous life. But there is more.
Romans 7 appears to be a total contradiction to chapter 6 & 8. He writes, "I'm carnal sold under sin, oh wretched man am I who shall deliver me from this body of this death. Does this sound like the testimony of a born again Christian who is walking in the spirit and dead to sin? Is Paul telling us that after nearly 2 decades of serving God this is the best that a normal Christian life can offer? I think not.
Take special notice what Paul is saying. When he wanted to do good he failed and when he wanted to avoid evil he failed. He was describing a completely failed life not an occasional mistake!
How could he pen such a contradiction? How could he write with such power and in a few sentences totally contradict himself, then in a few more sentences reverse himself again? God is not a God of confusion. So how are we to reconcile this conundrum?
This final phrase in chapter 7 holds part of the answer.
"So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God,...That is to say, in his mind he knew the law was just and good and he wanted to serve it, but that was the best he could do. It was just a pipe dream that lived only in his mind. Why? Because with the flesh he could only serve the law of sin.
Previously in verses 5&6 he addresses this very same thing;
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, (not the flesh) and not in the oldness of the letter.
THERE ARE 2 LAWS, Carry
In verse 23 Paul refers to the 'law of sin' indicating that this failed life of which he spoke is the result of the 'law of sin' and death which was in his members. With the flesh he served the law of sin but that was when he was in the flesh. "BUT NOW" How does God deal with this law of sin and death? he simply brings into effect a much greater law! Here is your deliverance Carry !
“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom. 8:1,2
I pray that this is helpful
Carry_Your_Name
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Somewhat helpful, but not really. In my long debate with that heretic, I mentioned this many times, that the law is not sin, but a mirror, it defines and exposes sin, the term "law of sin" is misleading and confusing. "Is the law sin? Certainly not!" Jesus himself explicitly condemned lawlessness as he rejected Christians in name only: "depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!" Law of the spirit is the new covenant, prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31-34, this law is written in each believer's heart. A spiritually mature believer doesn't need to be constantly monitored and lectured, they have internalized the law, they voluntarily and automatically follow God's commands. Legalism is for immature believers who do need to be constantly monitored and lectured.
Also, I'd like to point out that our modern understanding is often clouded by the western individualistic view, even Tenchi once told me to read the bible as God's personal words to me. Well there's a big problem if you go down that route - the bible was not originally written as personal revelation or instructions, at least not most of the books. It's not customized for you. If you read it as personal self-help message, then inevitably you'll compartmentalize it, picking the parts you like and ditching the parts you don't like. Romans was a letter to the whole Roman church, not to any particular individual, and so was 1 John and most other letters. It really annoys me that most modern churches are teaching the bible as a self help book, no wonder they're powerless.
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Tenchi
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Yes, it is a Strawman cartoon of what they actually believe. And you simply double-down on it here. As Scripture makes quite clear, they understand that the saints of God sin but are moving more and more toward a condition where sin is the exception rather than the rule.
You may deride the analogy but in doing so you haven't shown that it is "poor."
It is a big non sequitur that you've offered here. Clothed in the righteousness of Christ who, by faith, we have "put on" (Galatians 3:27; Romans 13:14), we are forensically declared by God to be righteous. But we are no more actually perfectly righteous than the man who puts on a bearskin coat is actually a bear. This is what is evident in the record of Scripture, as I've already demonstrated in earlier posts to this thread. It just doesn't follow, then, that because we are in Christ, all that he is becomes ours.
We are in Christ, but we don't therefore possess his omniscience, nor do we gain his omnipotence. We are in Christ, but none of us has lived from eternity past, the Creator of All Things, as he has. Why pick this one feature of sinlessness, then, and fix upon it, making it necessary that his sinless perfection be ours? As Scripture plainly indicates, not all that is true of Christ is true of those in him.
??? We've talked about this before and simply repeating this faulty reasoning won't somehow make it less faulty. "Seed" in the NT refers to the Gospel, or Truth of God's word, or to offspring/descendants, or to the literal seed of a plant. In which sense are you using "seed" here?
If by "seed" you mean "offspring" or "descendant," how does it follow that all that is true of a progenitor is true of his "seed"? I have six siblings and none of them is exactly like either of my parents. Some are taller than my parents, others shorter; some are slimmer than my parents, others heavier; hair color and eye color also vary from that of my parents; and so on. While there a vague similarity between my parents and their children, there is not in any way identicality. This physical divergence of children from parent has a parallel spiritually. Though we are spiritual descendants of the "seed of Abraham" who is Christ, we are not identical to him and simply cannot be as created beings.
If by "seed" you mean some sort of nascent "kernel" of spiritual being or life that is akin to that of a plant, it is obvious, it seems to me, that a seed is radically different from that of the plant from which the seed comes. No one looks at a walnut and at the walnut tree from which it came and thinks the seed of the tree is the same as the tree itself. If the "seed" of Christ is within us, a sort of "spiritual life" carrying the spiritual "genetics" of Christ, it is so in a nascent form, an immature form, that only changing over time, in an environment promoting growth, will produce a more mature form.
This is the case, also, for the born-again person, the "seed" of the Holy Spirit imparting to the spiritually-regenerated person (Titus 3:5) the life of Christ (Romans 8:9-16; 1 John 4:13). But this life is in an immature "seed" state, requiring time and nourishment in order to grow and mature.
Ephesians 4:13-16 )
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
Perfection precludes growth; if one is perfect one cannot be improved, developed, enlarged, etc. But Paul here clearly urged his fellow saints in the Lord to growth, to progress from being "children tossed to and fro" to spiritual maturity.
But immaturity in human beings means weakness, vulnerability, and ignorance, all of which contribute in the believer to stumbling into sin, which is what we read about all throughout the NT. Here's one example:
Hebrews 5:12-13
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,
13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child.
What were these immature spiritual "milk drinkers" doing? They were remaining mired in the "elementary doctrines" of the faith, repenting over and over from "dead works," which is to say, from sin.
Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
We have the same sort of story played out among the believers, the "carnal babes in Christ," at Corinth (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) and the believers in the province of Galatia who were being pressed into Jewish legalism (Galatians 3:1-3) and the Christians in Rome who were ignorant of their identity in Christ and living lives in which sin abounded (Romans 6:1-2).
I've run out of time to write more. Will try and do so later.
Well said.
You have everything in there that I have learned from God.
I was once reading Rom 7 and 8 while keeping in mind that there were no chapter of verse numbers in the original Greek.
God led me to see that Rom 8:2 answered Rom 7:23.
Rom 7:23..."But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
Answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
God also showed me that Rom 7:24 had [been answered in Rom 6:6.
Rom 7:24..."O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Rom 7 cannot be Paul's post-conversion state.
Rom 7:5 sets the stage with it's "For when we WERE in the flesh".
Rom 7 is Paul's before-and-after tale.
As even Jesus said that no man can serve two masters, (Matt 6:24), and He also said that those who commit sin are the servants of sin, (John 8:34), what do you think sinners' relationship with Jesus is ?
Matt 6:24 says the sinners hate Him.
A real repentance from sin would end their movement towards what you say is impossible.
OK
"Put on Christ", "declared righteous", but neither in Christ nor righteous.
Can't you see the futility of your false doctrine of sin in Christ ?
We are not promised omniscience or life from eternity past for our repentance from sin.
Isn't that one of those straw man arguments you cite ?
Because God and Jesus commanded it. (Lev 11:44, Matt 5: 48)
And they made the way for it to occur.
They gave us the destruction of the old man and rebirth from God's seed.
But you still can't beleive common sense.
There is no sin in God or in Jesus, so there cannot be sin in those who reside in Them.
Can an apple seed bring forth onions ?
No, as a seed must bring forth after itself.
Why to you presume that God's seed can bring forth the devil's fruit ?
They are all human...right?
So human seed brings forth humans !
What is God's seed going to bring forth ?
Devils ?
No.
Are any of them not human?
By seed, I mean the same seed that birthed Jesus from Mary.
That is not a possibility.
Seed brings forth after itself.
Can that walnut ever bring forth something besides another walnut tree ?
Why so you assume Gods seed will bring forth liars, thieves, and murderers ?
You are starting to catch on !
God's seed will never bring forth the devilish.
It's fruit will always be Christ centered, from day one till its last day.
OK, sure, but it will never bring forth the devil's fruit.
If you don't think it is possible, then you are not a part of verse 13's "all".
Start out as a child of God, and from that pure start grow in grace and knowledge.
Hardly.
Start perfect, and grow from that point.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
If one isn't pure from the start, they will not slowly evolve into anything like pure.
Perhaps you have never heard of growing in grace and knowledge.
Jesus was perfect, but He grew in grace and stature.
Why do you think that is impossible for the rest of God's children ?
They had been wasting the gifts of God given them to grow in grace and knowledge.
Continued waste of time would make them the branches cut off of the holy Root. (Rom 11)
The end of those who remain of a carnal mind, or who are swept away by doctrines that accommodate sin, is eternal destruction in a lake of fire.
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Do you believe Jesus is God?
I appreciate the format that is used by those of you who are familiar with this forum. By being new I don’t know how to parse out statements and comment about them separately as Hopeful has in his last post. Also I know I am long ‘winded’ but there are so many points and scriptures that come to mind as I write. I would hope that my long replies do not put any of you off. Lastly If you have a concern it would be well to question specific statements and text I have used.
Tenchi
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What it appears here that you understood me to mean and what I actually meant are widely-differing things. In actuality, I don't believe the Bible is "customized for you," or is a "personal self-help message," or that it's appropriate to pick and choose among its contents what you like. And in all of the posts to CF.net that I've written, in none of them will you encounter such advice from me.
The usage of "the law of sin" is not confusing. It is stating something that happens again and again, the effect that follows a cause, a law or principal. It is not referring to the Decalogue which is the divine mirror and it is that which is written in the heart. "The law of the spirit of life" is a superior and divine law which supersedes and nullifies the law of sin and death. neither of these usages are referring to the Decalogue.
Carry wrote; "...they voluntarily and automatically follow God's commands."
This is so sweet and it brings to mind a statement that I once heard and committed it to memory.
"If we consent, Christ will so identify himself with our thoughts and purposes, He will so blend our hearts and minds in accordance to his will, that when obeying Him, we will be but carrying out our own impulses. The heart refined and sanctified will find its highest delight in doing the will of God. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him our life will be a life of continual obedience."
Perhaps reading the bible as a self-help book may be misnomer. But from personal experience Father has spoken to me using scripture and sometimes it comes from a source that it was not originally intended to say but it was so perfect for my moment of need. Add other times a statement from a worldly movie or song comes into my mind and I know that it is his voice speaking to me using something that is familiar some thing that came from my stored memory. That is why I consider him the Lover of my soul who whisper sweet nothings in my ear.
Tenchi
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I don't know that you've been entirely clear about what you mean by "truly born again from God's seed." God isn't a plant, right? He doesn't inseminate His children with spiritual sperm, with divine "seed," either. I am born-again by the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within me and making of me his "temple" (Romans 8:9-16; Titus 3:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; John 3:3-7). He is never referred to in the NT, though, as the "seed" of Christ in the born-again person. What, then, do you mean by "born again from God's seed"?
These things are nowhere stated in the NT of genuinely born-again people in the Early Church, though many of them are criticized for sinful conduct in many places in the NT.
I once saw online a cat raised by a dog that acts like a dog. It plays like a dog, fetching balls, and picking up sticks, and digging in the dirt. The cat hangs out with dogs, going where they go, eating what they eat, and generally behaving quite unlike a cat. Is the cat, therefore, not a cat? The "fruit" of its behavior is not consistent with its feline nature. This, though, would not be good grounds upon which to say that the cat is a dog. This the-cat-is-a-dog logic is what you're employing in the quotation above concerning Christians.
It is, though, precisely because the writers of the NT did not think in this fallacious way that when they saw sin in the lives of Early Christians they wrote to them in criticism of their sin as "brethren," and those "in Christ," and "God's field and buildings," and "temples of the Holy Spirit" and so on.
Nowhere in any of Paul's writings does he ever write that the only thing he had yet to attain to was his resurrection to a glorified body. It is entirely eisegesis that you're doing - forcing an idea into the biblical text - when you assert such a thing.
In verse 15, Paul wrote of being mature, but maturity doesn't necessarily imply sinless perfection. And his admission to not yet having attained denies the idea of his being sinlessly perfect. The "prize of the upward call of God in Christ" is what Paul described at length only a few verse earlier: knowing Christ.
Philippians 3:7-10
7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—
10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
Repeatedly in this section of verses, Paul emphasized that Christ - knowing him, being like him - was his chief preoccupation and that toward this goal - not yet fully attained - he was constantly pressing. It is the repetition of this goal that signals what Paul had primarily in view when he continued on, writing of what he had not yet attained. This "prize" Paul had actually referred to repeatedly earlier in his letter to the Christians at Philippi.
Philippians 1:12-18
12 I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel,
13 so that it has become known throughout the whole imperial guard and to all the rest that my imprisonment is for Christ.
14 And most of the brothers, having become confident in the Lord by my imprisonment, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.
15 Some indeed preach Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from good will.
16 The latter do it out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.
17 The former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely but thinking to afflict me in my imprisonment.
18 What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice. Yes, and I will rejoice,
Paul's interest here isn't in a resurrected, glorified body but in Christ.
Philippians 1:20-23
20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death.
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Paul's focus here was not on getting a resurrected, glorified body but on being with Christ and on Christ being honored in Paul's body. In light of Paul's very clear emphasis in his letter on Christ and achieving more in regards to his relationship with Christ, to imply that Paul's resurrected body was all he had yet to attain is just, well, bizarre. But this contortion of the obvious is always what false doctrines require of those who hold them.
Continued below.