Confronting the doctrine of sinless perfection with 1 Corinthians 3:1-4 and Colossians 3:5-10

[Hopeful 2]

That's biblical truth and sound teaching which you reject for a heresy.

Original sin is a catholic doctrine, and it is untrue.
If you want to start a thread on that, do so.

By putting on your own garment of filthy rag, which you mistake for the white robe of righteousness until you are thrown out of the marriage supper of the Lamb.

Then it is not "putting on Christ".
The manifestation of that would be further sin.

If you still need Christ's righteousness, take off your self righteousness! (Titus 3:5)

I will carry His righteousness until I either pass on, or commit a sin.

Then stop boasting like the Pharisee in Lk. 18:9-14. You don't see that in your bible because you're blinded by your pride.

It seems you have a real problem discerning the difference between truth and boasting.

You are contradicting Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 15:36, new creature cannot be reborn until the old one dies.

The old "me" has already been killed.
It is written..."For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Rom 6:5-7)

But have they not immersed in Christ's death and burial?

No, and the manifestation of that is further sinning.

Have you not read Jn. 10:30? "I and my father are ONE." Where's the separation there?

I have read it.
God is a Spirit, while Jesus was a man.
That was the only separation.

Why not?

Because that is the day of judgement, and when they look for names in the book of life.

And so do I forgive your accusations.

What accusation do you refer to ?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Original sin is a catholic doctrine, and it is untrue.
If you want to start a thread on that, do so.

No I don't, I wanna confront your denial right here in this thread.

Then it is not "putting on Christ".
The manifestation of that would be further sin.

Then why are you still doing it?

I will carry His righteousness until I either pass on, or commit a sin.

You are carrying your own self-righteousness as long as you preach the heresy of "sinless perfection."

It seems you have a real problem discerning the difference between truth and boasting.

Whose truth? Yours or God's?

The old "me" has already been killed.

So you're a corpse? A zombie? A ghost?

No, and the manifestation of that is further sinning.

How so? Why are their old selves not "killed" and buried? What makes you think you're not one of them?

I have read it.
God is a Spirit, while Jesus was a man.
That was the only separation.

No you haven't. Jesus was BOTH man and God, BOTH flesh and spirit. No separation.

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Because that is the day of judgement, and when they look for names in the book of life.

So? What makes you so sure that your name is in there?

What accusation do you refer to ?

That somehow I'm defending sin when I'm only exposing sin which you choose to deny.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No I don't, I wanna confront your denial right here in this thread.

You know my views on the false church's false doctrine.

Then why are you still doing it?

I'm not.

You are carrying your own self-righteousness as long as you preach the heresy of "sinless perfection."

It isn't my righteousness I carry.

Whose truth? Yours or God's?

God's...(John 8:32-34)

So you're a corpse? A zombie? A ghost?

A new creature.

How so? Why are their old selves not "killed" and buried? What makes you think you're not one of them?

Their repentance from sin was a lie to God, so the only thing that happened at their baptism into Christ was, they got wet.

No you haven't. Jesus was BOTH man and God, BOTH flesh and spirit. No separation.

If no separation, why didn't Jesus know when the last day woud be ?

"Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

Thank God or that !!

So? What makes you so sure that your name is in there?

I am not sure it will be there on the last day.

That somehow I'm defending sin when I'm only exposing sin which you choose to deny.

There is no doubt about the fact that you are defending sin.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You know my views on the false church's false doctrine.

Yes, denial.

I'm not.

It isn't my righteousness I carry.

More denial.

God's...(John 8:32-34)

Yours. (Is. 14:13-14)

A new creature.

A new creature is not "already killed". A new creature is a LIVING sacrifice.

Their repentance from sin was a lie to God, so the only thing that happened at their baptism into Christ was, they got wet.

Then your argument about "immersion into the death and burial of Chrisit" would be a lie.

If no separation, why didn't Jesus know when the last day woud be ?

Because the Antichrist changed the times and laws (Dan. 7:25), there was no Gregarian calendar for Jesus or his disciples.

Thank God or that !!

You were denying Jesus's spiritual nature.

I am not sure it will be there on the last day.

Then you're not sure about assurance of salvation. You have no moral superiority, and no standing to lecture on me.

There is no doubt about the fact that you are defending sin.

There's no doubt about your deadly sin of pride.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes, denial.


More denial.

Yours. (Is. 14:13-14)

A new creature is not "already killed". A new creature is a LIVING sacrifice.

Then your argument about "immersion into the death and burial of Chrisit" would be a lie.

Because the Antichrist changed the times and laws (Dan. 7:25), there was no Gregarian calendar for Jesus or his disciples.

You were denying Jesus's spiritual nature.

Then you're not sure about assurance of salvation. You have no moral superiority, and no standing to lecture on me.

There's no doubt about your deadly sin of pride.

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
I sure am glad that Jesus' commands are doable.
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
I sure am glad the God answers Jesus' prayers in the affirmative.
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
I sure am glad that Paul went in depth in explaining the destruction of the old man and its effect on behalf of the new creature.
That being, freedom from sin !

 

[Corinth77777]

I asked a question awhile back. What would God rather have your sinlessness or For you to trust Him?

For

Abraham, ‘He believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness

For if we Trust God for everything, our lives, He will teach us. And that does mean running our lives on His terms and not our own.

For myself when I see the terms sinless perfection, it sounds like something I must do, instead of an outcome, that comes by a changed heart from an interactive relationship.

So I don't see anybody winning an arguement here just because in how its viewed.

We know being perfect means maturity, growing up to full measure, where we Love.

We are saved, and we are being saved from the power of sin in our daily lives as we are students in training for reigning.

Being saved, in my view, from¹ the power of sin is when our bodies are in allignment with our New Spirit. So when what you say and do are in alignment.

That's like Paul saying who can save us from this body of sin I thank the Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore salvation is not merely forgiveness, however you come to see this, and heaven when you die, it's about life in the kingdom now by having an interactive relationship with God.

Jesus came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.

If we love Him we will keep His commands and the father And the son will come in and make their abode with us.

This doesn't have to mean if you love me you will do this for me. But what come out of love.

The commandments are to be kept in order to relate to God. But we do not keep them by trying to do them in our own power. The righteous requirements of the law are fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit. So we uphold the law through the faith of Jesus.

And that will take some time to explain

So now we can understand if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you shall be saved. The inside and the outside should be in alignment.

For look at the rest of the passage:
But let me note before I forget: that it's about cleaning up the inside so the outside will be clean as well. And recall the passage- may your whole body soul and spirit be preserved the day of the Lord.

Now to the rest of the passage

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10

Confession and profession are different

You can profess something to be true without trusting.

But confession by a well know professor was said - to own up to the condition of your soul.

So when what you say and what you do are in alignment of your new heart. Then you see how Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil:

If by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

Salvation is not merely about heaven when you die but to get heaven in us now.

For scripture says who will be able to stand at His coming? M 3:2

That is why we are to purify ourselves now. For when He comes He will be like a blazing fire.

Back to the Romsns 10 passage for a second
I actually see the passages positionally. But the position is not without it's duty.

Compare Romans 10 with Dueteronomy
30 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Deuteronomy-30-1/

One believes onto righteousness, to me means they have been regenerated, the confession is the outcome. So this Is Salvation because you have been quickened together with Christ, made alive when you were dead.

So the above is You are saved





The position is not without it's duty to live according to the call. When you live according to the call.

You are being saved-

therefore to me sanctification is a progressive growth in righteousness being a disciple learning to do all the things Jesus commanded.

Man see the outside of what we do, and this is how we brimg them to what is in the inside God.
So to magnify God is to Hold up His name.

In the end the Gospel I see is Life in the Kingdom is available now to enter for anyone who trust who Jesus is. He was proven to be the son of God and an extraordinary King for He died for our sins and death could not hold Him and was Raised for our Justification and has been given all power, even to continually forgive sin and everything we need is in Him.

 

[Corinth77777]

.

 

[Hopeful 2]

I asked a question awhile back. What would God rather have your sinlessness or For you to trust Him?

The two are inseparable.
How can a man who trusts God offend the One he trusts in ?

For
Abraham, ‘He believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness
For if we Trust God for everything, our lives, He will teach us. And that does mean running our lives on His terms and not our own.
For myself when I see the terms sinless perfection, it sounds like something I must do, instead of an outcome, that comes by a changed heart from an interactive relationship.

It sure is !
It is a command of both God and Jesus Christ !

So I don't see anybody winning an arguement here just because in how its viewed.
We know being perfect means maturity, growing up to full measure, where we Love.

Those regenerated from God's seed will continue to grow in grace and knowledge.
But they start from a perfect point in Christ.

We are saved, and we are being saved from the power of sin in our daily lives as we are students in training for reigning.

No man is saved from the power of sin is he is defending his ability to commit more sin.

Being saved, in my view, from¹ the power of sin is when our bodies are in allignment with our New Spirit. So when what you say and do are in alignment.

Ever met anybody who has arrived at that end ?
If not, then by your own words, nobody will be saved.

That's like Paul saying who can save us from this body of sin I thank the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yep, thanks for Paul's Rom 6:6 answer to Rom 7:24's plaint.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Therefore salvation is not merely forgiveness, however you come to see this, and heaven when you die, it's about life in the kingdom now by having an interactive relationship with God.

Sinners can't do that.

Jesus came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.
If we love Him we will keep His commands and the father And the son will come in and make their abode with us.

And if we don't love Him?
We will continue to commit sin.

This doesn't have to mean if you love me you will do this for me. But what come out of love.

Don't get double-minded on me now...

The commandments are to be kept in order to relate to God. But we do not keep them by trying to do them in our own power. The righteous requirements of the law are fullfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit. So we uphold the law through the faith of Jesus.

Thank God we don't have to do them under our own power.
The repentant and washed have the gift of the Holy Ghost to help us !

And that will take some time to explain
So now we can understand if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart you shall be saved. The inside and the outside should be in alignment.
For look at the rest of the passage:
But let me note before I forget: that it's about cleaning up the inside so the outside will be clean as well. And recall the passage- may your whole body soul and spirit be preserved the day of the Lord.
Now to the rest of the passage
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10

Believes unto what ? RIGHTEOUSNESS.
It is the UNbelievers who seem to beleive unto UNrighteousness.

Confession and profession are different
You can profess something to be true without trusting.
But confession by a well know professor was said - to own up to the condition of your soul.
So when what you say and what you do are in alignment of your new heart. Then you see how Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil:
If by the Spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

Thanks be to God !

Salvation is not merely about heaven when you die but to get heaven in us now.
For scripture says who will be able to stand at His coming? M 3:2
That is why we are to purify ourselves now. For when He comes He will be like a blazing fire.

"Purify yourself"...sounds like sinless perfection !

Back to the Romsns 10 passage for a second
I actually see the passages positionally. But the position is not without it's duty.
Compare Romans 10 with Dueteronomy
30 https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Deuteronomy-30-1/
One believes onto righteousness, to me means they have been regenerated, the confession is the outcome. So this Is Salvation because you have been quickened together with Christ, made alive when you were dead.
So the above is You are saved
The position is not without it's duty to live according to the call. When you live according to the call.
You are being saved-
therefore to me sanctification is a progressive growth in righteousness being a disciple learning to do all the things Jesus commanded.
Man see the outside of what we do, and this is how we brimg them to what is in the inside God.
So to magnify God is to Hold up His name.
In the end the Gospel I see is Life in the Kingdom is available now to enter for anyone who trust who Jesus is. He was proven to be the son of God and an extraordinary King for He died for our sins and death could not hold Him and was Raised for our Justification and has been given all power, even to continually forgive sin and everything we need is in Him.

There is no sin in His kingdom.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
I sure am glad that Jesus' commands are doable.
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
I sure am glad the God answers Jesus' prayers in the affirmative.
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
I sure am glad that Paul went in depth in explaining the destruction of the old man and its effect on behalf of the new creature.
That being, freedom from sin !

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? (1 Cor. 3:1-3)

We're still carnal and walking in the flesh. If we're already perfect, then why did Paul write this to the Corinthian church? You think you're above this?

For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Heb. 5:12-14)

If you're "sinlessly perfect”，why are you still spiritually immature? Your boastful attitude shows you're still babe in Christ, unskilled and unable to discern spiritual truth.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. (Gal. 4:28-29)

Your "old man" is still there, "even so it is NOW".

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (Rom. 12:1-2)

Stop preaching the heresy of "sinless perfection", brother, humber yourself and present your body as a living sacrifice acceptable to God.

 

[hawkman]

TOS1.3: Use self control and focus on reconciliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

 

[Corinth77777]

The two are inseparable.
How can a man who trusts God offend the One he trusts in ?

My question was which would He rather have- for Abraham believed God and it was counted to Him for righteousness.

It sure is !
It is a command of both God and Jesus Christ !

Those regenerated from God's seed will continue to grow in grace and knowledge.
But they start from a perfect point in Christ.

No man is saved from the power of sin is he is defending his ability to commit more sin.

I beg to differ
as said earlier- we are saved
and we are being saved

If we walk in the Spirit the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. ( saved- where you had a quilty conscience you dont anymore)

Sins power is the Law that brings death seperation from God
When walking by the Spirit there is no Law after the Flesh which brings seperation.



“To us who are being saved [the cross] is the power of God” 1 Cor. 1:18

(3 Ps) penaly, power presence

Ever met anybody who has arrived at that end ?
If not, then by your own words, nobody will be saved.

Yep, thanks for Paul's Rom 6:6 answer to Rom 7:24's plaint.
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Sinners can't do that.

And if we don't love Him?
We will continue to commit sin.

Don't get double-minded on me now...

Thank God we don't have to do them under our own power.
The repentant and washed have the gift of the Holy Ghost to help us !

Believes unto what ? RIGHTEOUSNESS.
It is the UNbelievers who seem to beleive unto UNrighteousness.

Thanks be to God !

"Purify yourself"...sounds like sinless perfection !

There is no sin in His kingdom.

 

[Corinth77777]

The

Being saved, in my view, from¹ the power of sin is when our bodies are in allignment with our New Spirit. So when what you say and do are in alignment.

Hope2 -Ever met anybody who has arrived at that end ?
If not, then by your own words, nobody will be saved.

Corinth77777-
Yes When what I believe is acted out in my behavior.

Being saved is also about everyday life we receive from God.

 

[Corinth77777]

The

Therefore salvation is not merely forgiveness, however you come to see this, and heaven when you die, it's about life in the kingdom now by having an interactive relationship with God.

Hopeful2 -Sinners can't do that.
Corinth77777- no, but sinners saved by grace can.

 

[Corinth77777]

The

This doesn't have to mean if you love me you will do this for me. But what come out of love.

Hopeful2-.Don't get double-minded on me now..
Lol on you- because you may not understand it may seem that way....

Corinth77777-The question is why wouldn't you understand?

If you love me you will obey my commands is a statement of fact.

But do you really think that is saying if you love me you will do this for me?

You're not doing something because you should or should not.
You love because of who you now are.

 

[JJonas]

Sorry for the long delay!

So are you saying Christians can be carnal?
Could be a good pt.

Well, that's what I read in the Bible, e.g. in the quoted verses of 1 Cor. 3.

Can one be in the light and not walk in the light.
And isn't Salvation every day life we receive from God?

A believer can stray away from the truth for a time, I believe. See for example the story of David and Batscheba. However, once confronted by prophet Nathan, he admitted his guilt and repented. The same happened with the believer of Corinth which practised “such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles” (1 Cor. 5:1). After he endured church discipline, he repented and can be restored (2 Cor. 2:6-8).

“You shall know them by their fruits” (Matt 7:16a). It often take time to see the fruits, I believe. Believers have the Holy Spirit in them, and one of the roles of the Holy Spirit is to convince of sin (John 16:8). So when someone refuses to repent and chooses to persevere in sin, I consider that a bad fruit from a bad tree, yes an evidence that he is not regenerated!

Question: How is one Given the right to become a son.

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12)

 

[JJonas]

Sorry for the late response!

You will never meet a person eyeball to eyeball claiming to never sin.
Never!
The reason being they are mythical creations that can never come forth to make such a claim in daylight where they can be identified and be confronted by contrary complications of their own reality .
Nowhere but the shadowy make believe internet world can they plant their flag of phoniness.
The nameless anonymity of the internet being the paramount foundation for any claim of sinlessness to these mythical characters

I met once such a man, although I didn't have the opportunity to really know him. He was part of the “Last Reformation” movement of Torben, which also teaches sinless perfection. However this man did nothing else but name sin with a different name, when sin happens in his life. Indeed, he talked about something like letting his car run with the old motor (the flesh), instead of intentionally choosing to run it with the new motor (the spirit) that he has since the new birth.

However sin litterally means: “miss the mark”, and letting your car run with the old motor instead of intentionally running it with the new motor is still “missing the mark”!

 

[Hopeful 2]

My question was which would He rather have- for Abraham believed God and it was counted to Him for righteousness.

He gets both, or neither one.

I beg to differ
as said earlier- we are saved
and we are being saved

If we walk in the Spirit the blood cleanses us from all unrighteousness. ( saved- where you had a quilty conscience you dont anymore)

Yes, and doesn't that enable us to say we have no sin ?

Sins power is the Law that brings death seperation from God
When walking by the Spirit there is no Law after the Flesh which brings seperation.

True, and Paul even mentions it in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

“To us who are being saved [the cross] is the power of God” 1 Cor. 1:18
(3 Ps) penaly, power presence

OK.
Isn't that power enough to keep us free from sinning ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hope2 -Ever met anybody who has arrived at that end ?

Yes, and was taught by them to remain faithful.

Corinth77777-
Yes When what I believe is acted out in my behavior.
Being saved is also about everyday life we receive from God.

Got that right !

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful2 -Sinners can't do that.
Corinth77777- no, but sinners saved by grace can.

If they are "saved by grace" the evidence will be a life without sinning.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hopeful2-.Don't get double-minded on me now..
Lol on you- because you may not understand it may seem that way....

That's possible.

Corinth77777-The question is why wouldn't you understand?

If you love me you will obey my commands is a statement of fact.

Yes, it is.

But do you really think that is saying if you love me you will do this for me?

Certainly.
Don't you ?

You're not doing something because you should or should not.

I do it because I love the requestor.

You love because of who you now are.

OK.