Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[Randy]

Never said it was.
The Son of God, the second person of the Trinity, always existed.
But in the womb of Mary he took on human nature.
Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.
His human nature came from her.
She conceived him in her womb by the power of the Holy Spirit, bore him in her womb and gave birth to him.
Therefore she is his mother.
The person that Mary gave birth to was both God and Man, one person.
Mary was the mother of that person.




Christ came into the world from the body of Mary.
Has it occurred to you that the body that was prepared for God's Son could be the body of Mary that God had prepared to be a fitting vessel to carry his Son, pure and undefiled.
As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

Very well. No I tend to thing of the sacrifice and offering part in regard to the body prepared for Jesus.
Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Mungo]

Very well. No I tend to thing of the sacrifice and offering part in regard to the body prepared for Jesus.
Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

That's another possibility.

 

[JLB]

My posts were full of scripture which you are just ignoring.

You posted your opinion tagged with a scripture reference, with no actual scripture that adressed the scriptures and context I posted.

 

[JLB]

No just Catholic Commentary.

My posts were full of scripture which you are just ignoring.
Nowhere does scripture say that Mary had other children apart from Jesus.

According to Dave Armstrong (a Catholic apologist), a Protestant work The Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words defines adelphos as follows:

Adelphos: denotes a brother, or near kinsmen; in the plural, a community based on identity of origin or life. It is used of:
1. male, children of the same parents….
2. male descendant of the same parents, Acts 7:23,26; Hebrews 7:5
4. people of the same nationality, Acts 3:17,22; Romans 9:3…
5. any man or neighbor, Luke 10:29; Matthew 5:22, 7:3;
6. persons united by a common interest, Matthew 5:47
7. persons united by a common calling, Revelation 22:9
8. mankind, Matthew 25:40; Hebrews 2:17
This is from a Protestant work not a Catholic commentary.

Moreover I showed that some of these brothers and sisters were not children of Mary the mother of Jesus.

An important argument from a theological perspective is that always, when a birth is announced by an angel of a son, it is a matter of an only son.

• Isaac (Gen 18:10)
• Samson (Judges 13:4)
• John the Baptist (Lk 1:13)

If these were figures of the Messiah, it would be illogical that they would be only sons, and the one represented by them were not like them.

when Luke tells us about the family in Nazareth, he only mentions three persons, not more. (Lk 2:41-52) When Jesus was lost in the temple, Joseph and Mary did not return with other sons. If one were lost, surely they would not leave the others (if there were any) at risk of losing them as well.

There is no mention of any other children being born to Mary.

You are hanging onto a false assumption that "brothers" and "sisters" must be uterine brother and sisters of Jesus. This is not true in our culture and it was not true in the culture of Jesus' time.

Here is scripture, with the context that shows Mary, Jesus the carpenter's son, which connects Joseph as the carpenter, which directly contextually ties Jesus's brothers and sisters to Joseph and Mary being the parents.









So we have the family unit of Jesus, Mary and Joseph framed and identified by scripture.

Next the scripture introduces His brothers, plainly indentified as the "carpenters son" brothers and His sisters.

These brothers and sisters are contextually associted with the carpenters son, Joseph, Mary and Jesus.


Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?”
Matthew 13:55-56




JLB

 

[JLB]

This is false exegesis. It ignores the context.

The Biblical way to hear the Good News was to hear it being preached not be reading a book and working it out oneself.

“But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?” (Rom 10:14).
All though Acts and Paul’s letters we hear about the word being preached.

This was not just for the apostolic age. Jesus says about the end times:
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. (Mt 24:14)

John, who wrote the text we are considering, records two promises that Jesus made to the apostles at the Last Supper. This was his final talk to them before his death and resurrection. He had been teaching them for 3 years and was soon to send them out on mission to take the gospel into the world where they would be facing new situations and new challenges.

He makes them two promises.

Firstly about the past – all he has taught them.
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26).

Secondly about the future – to guide them in new situations
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (Jn 16:13)

And we can see how this guiding happened in Acts 1 (the choosing of Matthias as a successor to Judas), and in Acts 15 (the Council of Jerusalem)

Now we move to John’s letter, chapter 2. He is writing to Christians who he personally has catechised, taught them everything, taught them the truth. He addresses them as “my children” (vs 1) and “beloved” (vs 7). However they are in danger of being led astray by false teachers. That is the context. And we need to start at vs 20 not 24 to get the immediate context

20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know.
Footnotes say some manuscripts say “you know everything” instead of you all know.
They know because John has taught them.

21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it… [because John has taught them].

24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you[what they have already been taught]. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Now vs 26 & 27 in this context:
26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you [John is concerned that they are being taught falsely].

27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you [because they have already been taught by John]; as his anointing teaches you about everything [that they have been taught], and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

This is equivalent to the first promise Jesus made to the apostles. The Holy Spirit would bring to mind all the true teaching they had already received. That presupposes that they had already received true teaching. But you have to get that true teaching first. You cannot generate it from your own resources. You cannot reach the truth by starting from scratch, but only by receiving it from those who have already been taught it and can pass it on. Then when you are presented with false teaching, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the truth that you have already been taught.

This where Martin Luther and the other reformers went wrong. They thought they could reject the teaching authority of the Church and start from scratch with just the Bible. And that is why Protestantism has fractured into thousands of denominations with many opposing doctrines.

“From the beginning, the fault lines of Protestantism appeared when Zwingli and Oecolampadius (two lesser Reformers) differed with Luther on the Real Presence, and the Anabaptists dissented on the Eucharist, infant Baptism, Ordination, and the function of civil authority…… By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Word, “This is My Body” was published at Ingolstadt, Germany.”
(A Biblical Defence of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong)

The Bereans are sometimes used to prove that we should search the scriptures for the truth. And indeed we should, but to confirm the truth of what we have been taught. This is what the Bearans did. Paul taught them first, and then they searched the scriptures to confirm the truth of what he taught them.

Again you try to use commentary and opinion to try and explain away scripture.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27




JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

 

[jasonc]

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

Lol

 

[Mungo]

Again you try to use commentary and opinion to try and explain away scripture.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27




JLB

Evasion, evasion, evasion!

I used one comment by Dave Armstrong and many scriptures.
Here it is without the comment:

The Biblical way to hear the Good News was to hear it being preached not be reading a book and working it out oneself.

“But how can they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach?” (Rom 10:14).
All though Acts and Paul’s letters we hear about the word being preached.

This was not just for the apostolic age. Jesus says about the end times:
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, as a testimony to all nations; and then the end will come. (Mt 24:14)

John, who wrote the text we are considering, records two promises that Jesus made to the apostles at the Last Supper. This was his final talk to them before his death and resurrection. He had been teaching them for 3 years and was soon to send them out on mission to take the gospel into the world where they would be facing new situations and new challenges.

He makes them two promises.

Firstly about the past – all he has taught them.
But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. (Jn 14:26).

Secondly about the future – to guide them in new situations
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (Jn 16:13)

And we can see how this guiding happened in Acts 1 (the choosing of Matthias as a successor to Judas), and in Acts 15 (the Council of Jerusalem)

Now we move to John’s letter, chapter 2. He is writing to Christians who he personally has catechised, taught them everything, taught them the truth. He addresses them as “my children” (vs 1) and “beloved” (vs 7). However they are in danger of being led astray by false teachers. That is the context. And we need to start at vs 20 not 24 to get the immediate context

20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know.
Footnotes say some manuscripts say “you know everything” instead of you all know.
They know because John has taught them.

21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it… [because John has taught them].

24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you[what they have already been taught]. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you will abide in the Son and in the Father.

Now vs 26 & 27 in this context:
26 I write this to you about those who would deceive you [John is concerned that they are being taught falsely].

27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you [because they have already been taught by John]; as his anointing teaches you about everything [that they have been taught], and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him.

This is equivalent to the first promise Jesus made to the apostles. The Holy Spirit would bring to mind all the true teaching they had already received. That presupposes that they had already received true teaching. But you have to get that true teaching first. You cannot generate it from your own resources. You cannot reach the truth by starting from scratch, but only by receiving it from those who have already been taught it and can pass it on. Then when you are presented with false teaching, the Holy Spirit will bring to mind the truth that you have already been taught.

This where Martin Luther and the other reformers went wrong. They thought they could reject the teaching authority of the Church and start from scratch with just the Bible. And that is why Protestantism has fractured into thousands of denominations with many opposing doctrines.

The Bereans are sometimes used to prove that we should search the scriptures for the truth. And indeed we should, but to confirm the truth of what we have been taught. This is what the Bearans did. Paul taught them first, and then they searched the scriptures to confirm the truth of what he taught them.

 

[JLB]

The Biblical way to hear the Good News was to hear it being preached not be reading a book and working it out oneself.

We are not discussing people who are unsaved, becoming saved.


We are discussing people who are saved and therefore have the anointing IN THEM.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

• you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things

JLB

 

[Mungo]

We are not discussing people who are unsaved, becoming saved.


We are discussing people who are saved and therefore have the anointing IN THEM.


But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

• you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things

JLB

EXACTLY!
That is the point I was making.
John has already preached to them, taught them everything they need to know.
They have been baptised and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will remind them of all that John has taught them. They don't need anyone else to teach them because they have already been taught.
They don't sit down with a Bible and try to make up their own version of Christianity.

 

[Randy]

EXACTLY!
That is the point I was making.
John has already preached to them, taught them everything they need to know.
They have been baptised and received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit will remind them of all that John has taught them. They don't need anyone else to teach them because they have already been taught.
They don't sit down with a Bible and try to make up their own version of Christianity.

As one who knows Jesus and has believed in Him as far back as my memory goes I state that Mary is the Mother of the
family unit noted in Jesus's home town in regard to His named brothers and unnamed sisters is the highly probable and reasonable "possible" answer. What the NT states is that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus which we state and believe and that is the importance as Jesus is the Son of God not Joseph.

 

[donadams]

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

This scripture refers to a Christian. John is encouraging Christians; people who are in Christ.

Where in this scripture does it mention being a part of a certain denomination to have an anointing?

Jn 15:5
Only after being taught the faith by Christ and his apostolic church and being a baptized member of Christ in the new covenant does this apply, you cannot reject Christ and his church and expect the anointing!
And the anointing “cannot” contradict the reveled truth of Christ and his church

There are no denominations in scripture!

There is only one true church founded by Christ on Peter and the apostles and their successors, it is the new covenant body of Christ! Matt 16:18 One fold
Jn 10:16 the household of faith! Gal 6:10

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Christ and His church are one, what Christ did the church continues to do, the church is an extension of Christ!
Acts 9:4 Jn 20:21-23

Only Christ has authority to found a church, Matt 16:18 all other are false of the tradition of men!

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9;4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13) Thru the grace of God in the sanctification of souls applied in the seven sacraments!

 

[donadams]

Nothing here about the catholic church.

Did Christ found a church?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Did Christ found a church?

Well... if church just means gathering of believers... then didn't He start with 12 guys as a mobile church?

 

[donadams]

I don't reject any teaching of my Lord. In fact I follow Him. I have the witness of the Spirit. I have also loved, believed in, and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. My whole life. I know Him and He knows me. He is the head of the body of Christ. You I don't know.

Name it and claim it don’t count, you must submit to Christ and his church and his apostolic ministers and sacraments
Strange anarchy that claims to love the king and detests the kingdom He established

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13)

 

[Paul Timothy]

Name it and claim it don’t count, you must submit to Christ and his church and his apostolic ministers and sacraments
Strange anarchy that claims to love the king and detests the kingdom He established

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13)

Excuse me but where did the "without error" creep in?
I don't see that in any of the references you provide.

 

[donadams]

Excuse me but where did the "without error" creep in?
I don't see that in any of the references you provide.

Lk 10:16 can Christ teach error?
Jn 20:21:23 same as christ
Jn 16:13 apostles lead into all truth not error
Matt 28:19 teach all men the truths revealed by christ
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Refers to 195 It’s not Bible study, it’s a covenant!

 

[donadams]

She is the Mother of the Christ.

So you do not believe that Jesus is God?

 

[donadams]

Yes the Son is all that the Father is because its the Fathers fullness that lives in Him. Col 1:19
The eternal life found in the Son is the Father.

As I stated I follow Jesus. The Father is the only begotten God.
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Please answer the questions