Did Jesus inherit sinful flesh nature?

[Alfred Persson]

The Flesh that Jesus had was no different that the flesh we and everyone before us had . The flesh can not sin on it's own , it takes a mind , a brain for the sin to be done . You have to choose to hold your thoughts captive as Jesus did , we have the Holy Spirit as our Guide .

If Jesus did not have the same flesh as us then the verse highlighted below is a lie .

Hebrews 4:15 Context​

12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The Original View of Original Sin

Augustine’s writings on original sin are often seen as a reaction to his own perceived youthful sexual excesses. In reality, his views are rooted in philosophy.

foundations.vision.org

A final point. I objected to your definition of "flesh" as body only, without a mind driven by lusts, sin nature. On a rudimentary level Christ's human body is just as human as ours, but He is without blemish or sin.

In other words, the definition of flesh without it being controlled by a mind easily influenced by sinful desire, is used in only a few scriptures. To illustrate, that definition does not work here:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Rom. 7:18 NKJ)

Flesh is used to refer to human nature which through Adam is fallen. That is why I objected to your "focused" statement: We are imperfect; Christ is perfect, even His flesh was perfect.

Strong's helpfully lists the wide range of meaning "flesh" has in Scripture:

4561 σάρξ sarx {sarx}

Meaning: 1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering 3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast 4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Origin: probably from the base of 4563; TDNT - 7:98,1000; n f

Usage: AV - flesh 147, carnal 2, carnally minded + 5427 1, fleshly 1; 151

 

[hawkman]

You said: "The Flesh that Jesus had was no different that the flesh we and everyone before us had"

True .

Our mothers conceived via our father's sperm. We inherit Adam's fallen nature (with his desires for sin) through our father.

Tell me where the fallen nature is in the father ? What if the father is a Christian ?

Walvoord, in his book "Jesus Christ Our LORD" discusses the sinlessness of Christ very thoroughly. You should get his book. I only excerpted parts of it.

Christ was sinless I already believe that . Did you find a post where I said Christ was sinful ?

You ask for my opinion about the text in Hebrews, I certainly do not agree with your limiting "without sin" to the act alone:

Christ's human nature was fully human, yet without sin:
For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (Heb. 4:15 NKJ)


"in all points" includes everything in the compass of flesh, hence I conclude Christ didn't lust sinfully as we do.

In other words, Christ was incarnate in the "likeness of sinful flesh", it wasn't sinful flesh:
For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, (Rom. 8:3 NKJ)

Where did I say that Jesus lusted ? Hold all your thoughts captive just as Jesus did ! Jesus was our example to follow . He overcame through the power of the Holy Spirit just as we can too ! Praise God !

If Jesus had an advantage over us then he could not be tempted in all points ! The temptation would have been for naught .

2 Corinthians 10:5 Context​

2But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's. 8For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

 

[hawkman]

Flesh is used to refer to human nature which through Adam is fallen. That is why I objected to your "focused" statement: We are imperfect; Christ is perfect, even His flesh was perfect.

Do you know what infirmities are ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

True .

Tell me where the fallen nature is in the father ? What if the father is a Christian ?

Christ was sinless I already believe that . Did you find a post where I said Christ was sinful ?

Where did I say that Jesus lusted ? Hold all your thoughts captive just as Jesus did ! Jesus was our example to follow . He overcame through the power of the Holy Spirit just as we can too ! Praise God !

If Jesus had an advantage over us then he could not be tempted in all points ! The temptation would have been for naught .

2 Corinthians 10:5 Context​

2But I beseech you, that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's. 8For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

At first read it seems elementary if Jesus could not sin, then He could not be tempted like us in all points. That is a reasonable deduction. Theologians have discussed this thoroughly. You'll find their discussion under the doctrine of the "Impeccability of Christ".

Its possible I misread your words as support for the idea Christ's human nature was fallen like ours, or He could not be tempted as we on all points. If so I apologize.

But for all interested in this subject another except from Walvoord's book follows. Note it ends with the Hebrew passage which I bolded. I urge all who want to study this, get Walvoord's book, Jesus Christ Our Lord:

The Impeccability of Christ
...
Orthodox theologians generally agree that Jesus Christ never committed any sin. This seems to be a natural corollary to His deity and an absolute prerequisite to His work of substitution on the cross. Any affirmation of moral failure on the part of Christ requires a doctrine of His person which would deny in some sense His absolute deity.

A question has been raised, however, by orthodox theologians whether the sinlessness of Christ was the same as that of Adam before the fall or whether it possessed a peculiar character because of the presence of the divine nature. In a word, could the Son of God be tempted as Adam was tempted and could He have sinned as Adam sinned? While most orthodox theologians agree that Christ could be tempted because of the presence of a human nature, a division occurs on the question as to whether being tempted He could sin.

Definition of Impeccability

The point of view that Christ could sin is designated by the term “peccability,” and the doctrine that Christ could not sin is referred to as the impeccability of Christ. Adherents of both views agree that Christ did not sin, but those who affirm peccability hold that He could have sinned, whereas those who declare the impeccability of Christ believe that He could not sin due to the presence of the divine nature.

The doctrine of impeccability has been questioned especially on the point of whether an impeccable person can be tempted in any proper sense. If Christ had a human nature which was subject to temptation, was this not in itself evidence that He could have sinned? The point of view of those who believe that Christ could have sinned is expressed by Charles Hodge who has summarized this teaching as follows:-

This sinlessness of our Lord, however, does not amount to absolute impeccability. It was not a non potest peccare. If He was a true man He must have been capable of sinning. That He did not sin under the greatest provocation; that when He was reviled He blessed; when He suffered He threatened not; that He was dumb, as a sheep before its shearers, is held up to us as an example. Temptation implies the possibility of sin. If from the constitution of his person it was impossible for Christ to sin, then his temptation was unreal and without effect, and He cannot sympathize with his people.15

The problem that Hodge raises is very real and, judging by our own experience, temptation is always associated with peccability. Hodge, however, assumes certain points in his argument which are subject to question. In order to solve the problem as to whether Christ is peccable, it is necessary, first of all, to examine the character of temptation itself to ascertain whether peccability is inevitably involved in any real temptation and, second, to determine the unique factor in Christ, that is, that He had two natures, one a divine nature and the other a sinless human nature.

Can an impeccable person be tempted? It is generally agreed by those who hold that Christ did not commit sin that He had no sin nature. Whatever temptation could come to Him, then, would be from without and not from within. Whatever may have been the natural impulses of a sinless nature which might have led to sin if not held in control, there was no sin nature to suggest sin from within and form a favorable basis for temptation. It must be admitted by Hodge, who denies impeccability, that in any case the temptation of Christ is different from that of sinful men.

Not only is there agreement on the fact that Christ had no sin nature, but it is also agreed on the other hand that as to His person He was tempted. This is plainly stated in Hebrews 4:15 (ASV): “For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”

15 15. Hodge, II, 457. Walvoord, J. F. (2008). Jesus Christ Our Lord (pp. 145–147). Galaxie Software.

After deliberation of relevant scripture, I believe in the "Impeccability of Christ", His fully human nature could not sin because the Eternal Son was incarnate in it.

 

[RandyK]

A final point. I objected to your definition of "flesh" as body only, without a mind driven by lusts, sin nature. On a rudimentary level Christ's human body is just as human as ours, but He is without blemish or sin.

In other words, the definition of flesh without it being controlled by a mind easily influenced by sinful desire, is used in only a few scriptures. To illustrate, that definition does not work here:

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Rom. 7:18 NKJ)

Flesh is used to refer to human nature which through Adam is fallen. That is why I objected to your "focused" statement: We are imperfect; Christ is perfect, even His flesh was perfect.

Strong's helpfully lists the wide range of meaning "flesh" has in Scripture:

4561 σάρξ sarx {sarx}

Meaning: 1) flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body 2a) the body of a man 2b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 2b1) born of natural generation 2c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 2c1) without any suggestion of depravity 2c2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 2c3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering 3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast 4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God

Origin: probably from the base of 4563; TDNT - 7:98,1000; n f

Usage: AV - flesh 147, carnal 2, carnally minded + 5427 1, fleshly 1; 151

This is a question I've had: what does the Bible mean by "the flesh?" The best I've been able to see it, the word indicates our physical selves, now that we've been removed from God's perfect control. In sinning Adam came out from under the Lord's control and guidance and came to be under an alien jurisdiction, operating from out of Self, but inspired by a rebellious spirit, following subconsciously Satan's spiritual rebellion against God.

What is inherited from Adam is not just our physical DNA, but together with it his Sin Nature. Sin is, I think, a *spiritual inheritance,* though locked within our physical being, or "flesh."

That's why, I think, Paul referred to our Sin Nature as "the flesh," because it is encased within our physical body and brain/mind. We have a Sin Inclination because our human spirits are poisoned by the spiritual poison of Sin, which is the desire to resist and rebel against God's word to us.

Anyway, that's kind of how I've looked at it, though I'm not sure I have it 100% right. It's just how I've imagined Paul to mean "the flesh." Your own thoughts are welcome!

 

[hawkman]

At first read it seems elementary if Jesus could not sin, then He could not be tempted like us in all points. That is a reasonable deduction. Theologians have discussed this thoroughly. You'll find their discussion under the doctrine of the "Impeccability of Christ".

Its possible I misread your words as support for the idea Christ's human nature was fallen like ours, or He could not be tempted as we on all points. If so I apologize.

But for all interested in this subject another except from Walvoord's book follows. Note it ends with the Hebrew passage which I bolded. I urge all who want to study this, get Walvoord's book, Jesus Christ Our Lord:

The Impeccability of Christ
...
Orthodox theologians generally agree that Jesus Christ never committed any sin. This seems to be a natural corollary to His deity and an absolute prerequisite to His work of substitution on the cross. Any affirmation of moral failure on the part of Christ requires a doctrine of His person which would deny in some sense His absolute deity.

A question has been raised, however, by orthodox theologians whether the sinlessness of Christ was the same as that of Adam before the fall or whether it possessed a peculiar character because of the presence of the divine nature. In a word, could the Son of God be tempted as Adam was tempted and could He have sinned as Adam sinned? While most orthodox theologians agree that Christ could be tempted because of the presence of a human nature, a division occurs on the question as to whether being tempted He could sin.

Definition of Impeccability

The point of view that Christ could sin is designated by the term “peccability,” and the doctrine that Christ could not sin is referred to as the impeccability of Christ. Adherents of both views agree that Christ did not sin, but those who affirm peccability hold that He could have sinned, whereas those who declare the impeccability of Christ believe that He could not sin due to the presence of the divine nature.

The doctrine of impeccability has been questioned especially on the point of whether an impeccable person can be tempted in any proper sense. If Christ had a human nature which was subject to temptation, was this not in itself evidence that He could have sinned? The point of view of those who believe that Christ could have sinned is expressed by Charles Hodge who has summarized this teaching as follows:-

This sinlessness of our Lord, however, does not amount to absolute impeccability. It was not a non potest peccare. If He was a true man He must have been capable of sinning. That He did not sin under the greatest provocation; that when He was reviled He blessed; when He suffered He threatened not; that He was dumb, as a sheep before its shearers, is held up to us as an example. Temptation implies the possibility of sin. If from the constitution of his person it was impossible for Christ to sin, then his temptation was unreal and without effect, and He cannot sympathize with his people.15

The problem that Hodge raises is very real and, judging by our own experience, temptation is always associated with peccability. Hodge, however, assumes certain points in his argument which are subject to question. In order to solve the problem as to whether Christ is peccable, it is necessary, first of all, to examine the character of temptation itself to ascertain whether peccability is inevitably involved in any real temptation and, second, to determine the unique factor in Christ, that is, that He had two natures, one a divine nature and the other a sinless human nature.

Can an impeccable person be tempted? It is generally agreed by those who hold that Christ did not commit sin that He had no sin nature. Whatever temptation could come to Him, then, would be from without and not from within. Whatever may have been the natural impulses of a sinless nature which might have led to sin if not held in control, there was no sin nature to suggest sin from within and form a favorable basis for temptation. It must be admitted by Hodge, who denies impeccability, that in any case the temptation of Christ is different from that of sinful men.

Not only is there agreement on the fact that Christ had no sin nature, but it is also agreed on the other hand that as to His person He was tempted. This is plainly stated in Hebrews 4:15 (ASV): “For we have not a high priest that cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but one that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”

15 15. Hodge, II, 457. Walvoord, J. F. (2008). Jesus Christ Our Lord (pp. 145–147). Galaxie Software.

After deliberation of relevant scripture, I believe in the "Impeccability of Christ", His fully human nature could not sin because the Eternal Son was incarnate in it.

No answers to my questions to you , oh well .

Adam , Eve and all other humans born on this planet including Mary and Jesus have a human nature . Are all humans that have this human nature capable of sinning , YES . There is no "sin nature" there is only human nature .

No one has been able to tell me who put the "sin nature" in humans or where they put the "sin nature" in the humans . Can you Alfred Persson ? No more commentary if you please .

 

[RandyK]

At first read it seems elementary if Jesus could not sin, then He could not be tempted like us in all points. That is a reasonable deduction. Theologians have discussed this thoroughly. You'll find their discussion under the doctrine of the "Impeccability of Christ".

I think Christ was impeccable. The confusion comes with the word "temptation." Can Christ be tempted without a possibility of choosing to sin? Yes.

So "temptation" has to do with suffering the affliction of having something offered to you that you should be repulsed by. Even if there is zero chance of you accepting the repulsive offering the fact it is repulsive and being offered to you means you are being afflicted by the offering.

It is this way with temptation for Christ. He had no possibility of choosing to accept what for him was certainly repulsive, even if it is pleasurable to the flesh. Since his will was one with the Father's will, he is by nature repulsed by anything contrary to his Deity.

There was no chance of him giving in to this "temptation," which was indeed a "temptation" even though he was repulsed by the thought of giving in to something pleasurable that was ungodly. As God, he cannot want to sin--he is by nature repulsed by the thought of anything contrary to his Deity.

The fact a temptation may be offering something pleasurable to his flesh in no way mitigates his utter distate for something that would define his holiness as something unholy. He cannot want to be anything other than God even with the thought of something pleasurable to his flesh.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is a question I've had: what does the Bible mean by "the flesh?" The best I've been able to see it, the word indicates our physical selves, now that we've been removed from God's perfect control. In sinning Adam came out from under the Lord's control and guidance and came to be under an alien jurisdiction, operating from out of Self, but inspired by a rebellious spirit, following subconsciously Satan's spiritual rebellion against God.

What is inherited from Adam is not just our physical DNA, but together with it his Sin Nature. Sin is, I think, a *spiritual inheritance,* though locked within our physical being, or "flesh."

That's why, I think, Paul referred to our Sin Nature as "the flesh," because it is encased within our physical body and brain/mind. We have a Sin Inclination because our human spirits are poisoned by the spiritual poison of Sin, which is the desire to resist and rebel against God's word to us.

Anyway, that's kind of how I've looked at it, though I'm not sure I have it 100% right. It's just how I've imagined Paul to mean "the flesh." Your own thoughts are welcome!

Context determines the meaning. Your definition summed it up, touched the major uses. Look it up in a Lexicon:

The range of meaning extends from the substance flesh (both human and animal), to the human body, to the entire person, and to all humankind.-Balz, H. R., & Schneider, G. (1990–). In Exegetical dictionary of the New Testament (Vol. 3, p. 230). Eerdmans.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I think Christ was impeccable. The confusion comes with the word "temptation." Can Christ be tempted without a possibility of choosing to sin? Yes.

So "temptation" has to do with suffering the affliction of having something offered to you that you should be repulsed by. Even if there is zero chance of you accepting the repulsive offering the fact it is repulsive and being offered to you means you are being afflicted by the offering.

It is this way with temptation for Christ. He had no possibility of choosing to accept what for him was certainly repulsive, even if it is pleasurable to the flesh. Since his will was one with the Father's will, he is by nature repulsed by anything contrary to his Deity.

There was no chance of him giving in to this "temptation," which was indeed a "temptation" even though he was repulsed by the thought of giving in to something pleasurable that was ungodly. As God, he cannot want to sin--he is by nature repulsed by the thought of anything contrary to his Deity.

The fact a temptation may be offering something pleasurable to his flesh in no way mitigates his utter distate for something that would define his holiness as something unholy. He cannot want to be anything other than God even with the thought of something pleasurable to his flesh.

I agree. Christ is unique, having two natures subsisting in One Divine Person, who is God the Son, Holy.

I recall someone arguing Satan tempted Christ PROVING He could choose to sin. But that doesn't follow because its key premise is Satan was right about Christ. Recall he was also wrong about Job, who despite Satan's best efforts never cursed God. Satan was certain he would.

All intelligent creatures are subject to bias. In Satan's case, he looked inwardly and concluded he would curse God if so temped, therefore so would Job.

God was proved right, Job didn't do it.

Likewise Satan tempting Christ, he was mistaken again.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No answers to my questions to you , oh well .

Adam , Eve and all other humans born on this planet including Mary and Jesus have a human nature . Are all humans that have this human nature capable of sinning , YES . There is no "sin nature" there is only human nature .

No one has been able to tell me who put the "sin nature" in humans or where they put the "sin nature" in the humans . Can you Alfred Persson ? No more commentary if you please .

It can be inferred from the Fall all get sin nature at conception from Adam. That is why all in Adam die, the wages of sin is death:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22 KJV)

Our sins are forgiven in Christ, that is why we are made alive in Him.

Scripture likens this to being "born from above ("again"), which parallels earthly conception. At conception we are born, at the new birth its like being conceived again but this time by God The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.

 

[hawkman]

It can be inferred from the Fall all get sin nature at conception from Adam.

Since this "sin nature" seems to be contagious . Where and when did Adam get his "sin nature " from and Who put it in him ?
Did God tell Adam he now had this "sin nature " and all of his descendants would have this "sin nature " too ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Since this "sin nature" seems to be contagious . Where and when did Adam get his "sin nature " from and Who put it in him ?
Did God tell Adam he now had this "sin nature " and all of his descendants would have this "sin nature " too ?

Not contagious. Its a function of being "in God" or "separated from God".

Before Adam sinned, he and Eve was in God's presence. The symbolism of them being naked yet unashamed showed they were holy, without sin. Therefore, no death.

Sinning separated them from God, the wages of sin is death.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
(Rom. 5:12-14 NKJ)

18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. (Rom. 5:18-19 NKJ)

God tells us, through the Holy Scriptures.

I'm sure God had lots to say to Adam the brief narrative in Genesis doesn't record.

 

[hawkman]

Before Adam sinned, he and Eve was in God's presence. The symbolism of them being naked yet unashamed showed they were holy, without sin.

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were they created capable of sin ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were Adam and Eve created with a "sin nature " ? I say NO , but they were created with a human nature and that is all that we need to enable our sinning !

God created us capable of making choices , He wants us to make the right choices . Adam and Eve choose poorly .

"Sin nature " is a fabrication of Augustine at his Kool-Aid stand and drink they did .

 

[Alfred Persson]

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were they created capable of sin ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were Adam and Eve created with a "sin nature " ? I say NO , but they were created with a human nature and that is all that we need to enable our sinning !

God created us capable of making choices , He wants us to make the right choices . Adam and Eve choose poorly .

"Sin nature " is a fabrication of Augustine at his Kool-Aid stand and drink they did .
View attachment 21636

First we must define what is meant by "sin nature", the "sinful state" into which all are born:

I. A DEFINITION
Inherited sin is that sinful state into which all people are born.

Theologians have used several labels to describe this concept. (1) Some call it, as the title of this chapter, inherited sin. This emphasizes the truth that all people inherit this sinful state from their parents, and their parents from their parents, all the way back to Adam and Eve. (2) Others call it the sin nature, which focuses on the fact that sin has corrupted our entire nature. The term “sin nature” provides a clear contrast between that root nature and its fruits (which are particular acts of sin). (3) Still others prefer the term “original sin” because Adam’s original sin produced that moral corruption of nature that was transmitted by inheritance to each succeeding generation.

II. SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE
The Bible clearly states that all aspects of man’s being are corrupt. “By nature” we are children of wrath—that is, objects of wrath (Eph. 2:3). By actions we are also objects of God’s wrath, but this verse refers to something innate. Psalm 51:5 indicates that this is something we have from conception, not something acquired by actions during our lifetimes.

Every facet of man’s being is affected by this sin nature. (1) His intellect is blinded (2 Cor. 4:4). His mind is reprobate or disapproved (Rom. 1:28). His understanding is darkened, separated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18). (2) His emotions are degraded and defiled (Rom. 1:21, 24, 26; Titus 1:15). (3) His will is enslaved to sin and therefore stands in opposition to God (Rom. 6:20; 7:20).Ryrie, C. C. (1999). Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth (p. 252). Moody Press.

Augustine didn't invent the concept, its taught in scripture. Adam and Eve "fell" when they were cast out of the presence of God, sinning became normal to them.

The Scriptural Account of the Fall of Man
The third chapter of Genesis gives the fullest account of this awful tragedy in the experience of mankind. Other scriptures: Rom 5:12–19; 1 Tim. 2:14; Gen 6:5; 8:21; Psa. 14; Rom 3:l0–23.

The purpose of the Genesis narrative is not to give an account of the manner in which sin came into the world, but how it found its advent into the human race. Sin was already in the world, as the existence of Satan and the chaotic condition of things in the beginning strikingly testify.

The reasonableness of the narrative of the fall is seen in view of the condition of man after he had sinned, as compared with his condition when he was created. Compare Gen. 1:26 with 6:5, and Psa. 14. If the fall of man were not narrated in Genesis we should have to postulate some such event to account for the present condition in which we find man. In no part of the Scripture, save in the creation account as found in the first two chapters of Genesis, does man appear perfect and upright. His attitude is that of rebellion against God, of deepening and awful corruption.-Evans, W., & Coder, S. M. (1974). The great doctrines of the Bible (Enl. ed., pp. 129–130). Moody Press.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were they created capable of sin ? I say YES . Is there any doubt Alfred Persson ?

Were Adam and Eve created with a "sin nature " ? I say NO , but they were created with a human nature and that is all that we need to enable our sinning !

God created us capable of making choices , He wants us to make the right choices . Adam and Eve choose poorly .

"Sin nature " is a fabrication of Augustine at his Kool-Aid stand and drink they did .
View attachment 21636

Of course Adam and Eve could sin, they proved that when they chose to believe Satan rather than God, and rebelled against His command they not eat of the tree of knowledge.

But most Christian denominations believe their sin "began the Fall". Don't you believe that too?

 

[hawkman]

Alfred Persson , why can't you answer my very simple questions . It is because the "inferred" sin nature does not exist .

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ?

Were Adam and Eve created capable of sin ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson , why can't you answer my very simple questions . It is because the "inferred" sin nature does not exist .

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ?

Were Adam and Eve created capable of sin ?

Just answered Yes. But most Christians see God's warning "in the day you eat you die" as fulfilled the moment Adam ate and both realized they were naked. That illustrated they felt "changed", going from innocence to guilty. They "fell from God's grace" and became "dead in their sins" separated from God. Their physical death was a function of their already having died, exactly as God warned.

 

[RandyK]

Alfred Persson , why can't you answer my very simple questions . It is because the "inferred" sin nature does not exist .

Did Adam and Eve have a human nature ?

Were Adam and Eve created capable of sin ?

Yes, Adam and Eve were created with the capacity to Sin. Obviously this is true because they chose to Sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve had a human nature. They were created humans.

But I've been told and I've believed that Mankind obtained a "Sin Nature" from the point that Adam and Eve chose to Sin. That rebellious spirit is transferred to future generations who all have, from birth, the inclination towards Sinning. They are spiritually flawed, having poisoned spirits, from the moment of conception, in my opinion and in my experience.

I like Augustine, but I don't think he was perfect. If he started the idea of a "Sin Nature," then I think he probably got the idea from the Bible. Everybody, at all ages, had to be purified under the Law. And everybody had to be redeemed, regardless of age, in the NT era.

I don't always agree with "Got Questions," but this I agree with--at least in part:

What is the sin nature? | GotQuestions.org

What is the sin nature? What does it mean that we all have a sin nature?

www.gotquestions.org

I might just add this from my own thinking. The fruit we produce is dependent on the tree we are. If our tree is poisonous, the fruit is poisonous. If the tree is good, the fruit is good. If the tree is contaminated, the fruit is contaminated.

We are contaminated and produce children with the same contamination. We cannot produce perfect fruit out of imperfect bodies and minds.

Just my opinion. Sorry we have to disagree on this brother! Otherwise, I hope you have a great 4th (if you live in America).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, Adam and Eve were created with the capacity to Sin. Obviously this is true because they chose to Sin.

Yes, Adam and Eve had a human nature. They were created humans.

But I've been told and I've believed that Mankind obtained a "Sin Nature" from the point that Adam and Eve chose to Sin. That rebellious spirit is transferred to future generations who all have, from birth, the inclination towards Sinning. They are spiritually flawed, having poisoned spirits, from the moment of conception, in my opinion and in my experience.

I like Augustine, but I don't think he was perfect. If he started the idea of a "Sin Nature," then I think he probably got the idea from the Bible. Everybody, at all ages, had to be purified under the Law. And everybody had to be redeemed, regardless of age, in the NT era.

I don't always agree with "Got Questions," but this I agree with--at least in part:

What is the sin nature? | GotQuestions.org

What is the sin nature? What does it mean that we all have a sin nature?

www.gotquestions.org

I might just add this from my own thinking. The fruit we produce is dependent on the tree we are. If our tree is poisonous, the fruit is poisonous. If the tree is good, the fruit is good. If the tree is contaminated, the fruit is contaminated.

We are contaminated and produce children with the same contamination. We cannot produce perfect fruit out of imperfect bodies and minds.

Just my opinion. Sorry we have to disagree on this brother! Otherwise, I hope you have a great 4th (if you live in America).

I am confused. You agree with GotQuestions? I haven't said anything different:

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.-GotQuestions

What you added I can't agree with, as if our "contamination" is different human to human, and our offspring reflect that.

Scripture says we are all equally dead in our sins from birth. Of course we can add to the torment in hell, by choosing to sin even more than what is common to man. But that wouldn't affect our children. Some in law enforcement had criminal parents, and vice versa.

 

[RandyK]

I am confused. You agree with GotQuestions? I haven't said anything different:

I was disagreeing with Hawkman--not you. As far as I know, we're in complete agreement on this. Sorry you saw it differently!

The Bible explains the reason for the trouble. Humanity is sinful, not just in theory or in practice but by nature. Sin is part of the very fiber of our being. The Bible speaks of “sinful flesh” in Romans 8:3. It’s our “earthly nature” that produces the list of sins in Colossians 3:5. And Romans 6:6 speaks of “the body ruled by sin.” The flesh-and-blood existence we lead on this earth is shaped by our sinful, corrupt nature.-GotQuestions

What you added I can't agree with, as if our "contamination" is different human to human, and our offspring reflect that.

I was speaking of *spiritual contamination*--not physical contagion. Just as we inherit our parents' DNA we inherit their spiritual contamination, as I see it.

Scripture says we are all equally dead in our sins from birth. Of course we can add to the torment in hell, by choosing to sin even more than what is common to man. But that wouldn't affect our children. Some in law enforcement had criminal parents, and vice versa.

We can inherit Sin Tendencies, such as a proneness to dependence on drugs or alcohol, but we can also choose to resist these tendencies.