Does The Bible Teach There Is A Second Chance In The Afterlife To Be Saved By Jesus?

[citrus]

Spam. See it is my auto correct

 

[citrus]

Whatever

 

[Highway54]

"Does the Bible teach there is a second chance in the afterlife to be saved by Jesus?

Some believe we have only one life on earth to make our decision for or against God. Hebrews 9:27 says "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." They believe Jesus' parable reveals no second chance for the uncharitable Rich Man in Hell. When he asks Lazarus to warn his family about hell he is told they have sufficient warning in the Bible to take the opportunity to repent and be saved during this life.

However, the very next verse (Hebrews 9:28) says after death and the "judgment" those judged "eagerly wait" for Christ's Second coming, for salvation. Therefore, the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) is "the second chance", in Greek krisis is a "trial, contest, selection…opinion or decision given"-Strong's Concordance. Clearly, all who repent and believe in Jesus "won" this "contest", because now they "eagerly wait for Him…for salvation":


Jesus taught the same thing. While still in the Grave the Dead will hear Christ's voice, and those who obey "do good" and therefore will rise to the "resurrection of life":


What about Jesus' parable? To begin with, its not a parable, it’s a prophecy Christ would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) and they would treat Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they treated Moses and the prophets, rejecting their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). As a "prophecy" it is truth, not "false prophecy."

The context implies a second chance exists for the Rich Man.

1.)Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:. 2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21). 3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment. 5) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", his words convey meaning many don't see. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. God's inspection, His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ)

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, they will be chastised in Hades contrary to their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must pass suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

Those who have not committed eternal sins will be purged of all that subverts their ability to make the free will confession Jesus is the
Christ, the Son of God and have life in His Name (John 20:28-31). All addiction to sin and self-delusion is burned away by the torment (931 βάσανος basano) of God's inspection, revealing the truth of the individual, who he really is. Once liberated and fully able to make a free will choice the gospel of Christ is preached, for belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for judgment (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8). Therefore, only after a definite and formal presentment of the Gospel of Christ is made to a soul fully capable of making an informed and free judgment will God judge the conscious and deliberate acceptance or rejection of Christ.

For the rest of this article listing scripture support:

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

For anointed Christians their judgment is now, if they die faithful they will instantly be resurrected to heaven since the first resurrection has already happened (we believe) Rev 20:6 For the rest of us we gain our everlasting life at the end of the millennial reign of Christ v5. At that point we will be equal to Adam. But satan will also be allowed to roam the earth for a short time, so like Adam we too will have to pass his tests toward us. After that short period he and those who choose to follow him will be cast into the lake of fire. No more redemption.

 

[Alfred Persson]

For anointed Christians their judgment is now, if they die faithful they will instantly be resurrected to heaven since the first resurrection has already happened (we believe) Rev 20:6 For the rest of us we gain our everlasting life at the end of the millennial reign of Christ v5. At that point we will be equal to Adam. But satan will also be allowed to roam the earth for a short time, so like Adam we too will have to pass his tests toward us. After that short period he and those who choose to follow him will be cast into the lake of fire. No more redemption.

I looked for where you discussed the scriptures I cited as proof the Bible teaches the second chance, but couldn't find it. I have no comment on your beliefs.

 

[Free]

"Does the Bible teach there is a second chance in the afterlife to be saved by Jesus?

No.

Some believe we have only one life on earth to make our decision for or against God. Hebrews 9:27 says "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." They believe Jesus' parable reveals no second chance for the uncharitable Rich Man in Hell. When he asks Lazarus to warn his family about hell he is told they have sufficient warning in the Bible to take the opportunity to repent and be saved during this life.

However, the very next verse (Hebrews 9:28) says after death and the "judgment" those judged "eagerly wait" for Christ's Second coming, for salvation. Therefore, the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) is "the second chance", in Greek krisis is a "trial, contest, selection…opinion or decision given"-Strong's Concordance. Clearly, all who repent and believe in Jesus "won" this "contest", because now they "eagerly wait for Him…for salvation":

This verse does not teach a second chance. Notice that humans die once and then are judged. That judgement is whether or not they had a saving faith. Paul then parallels that one-time death and judgement with Christ coming again to save those who already have faith in him. There is no second chance being taught in this verse.

Jesus taught the same thing. While still in the Grave the Dead will hear Christ's voice, and those who obey "do good" and therefore will rise to the "resurrection of life":


What about Jesus' parable? To begin with, its not a parable, it’s a prophecy Christ would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) and they would treat Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they treated Moses and the prophets, rejecting their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). As a "prophecy" it is truth, not "false prophecy."

The context implies a second chance exists for the Rich Man.

There is nothing in the context that implies a second chance for the Rich Man. In fact, the context implies that there isn't:

Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)

If there was no way for the Rich Man's anguish to be abated, then clearly there cannot be another chance at salvation, which is much more significant than having a few drops of water from Lazarus's finger.

There simply is nothing in all of Scripture to support the idea that there is a second chance after death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No.


This verse does not teach a second chance. Notice that humans die once and then are judged. That judgement is whether or not they had a saving faith. Paul then parallels that one-time death and judgement with Christ coming again to save those who already have faith in him. There is no second chance being taught in this verse.


There is nothing in the context that implies a second chance for the Rich Man. In fact, the context implies that there isn't:

Luk 16:24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ (ESV)

If there was no way for the Rich Man's anguish to be abated, then clearly there cannot be another chance at salvation, which is much more significant than having a few drops of water from Lazarus's finger.

There simply is nothing in all of Scripture to support the idea that there is a second chance after death.

The verse certainly does. The context says Christ's sacrificed once to cover everyone since the foundation of the world, that includes Adam and Eve and everyone born since then. Therefore, the trial couldn't be whether they had saving faith while alive, Christ didn't appear until the 1st century.

Therefore, the trial is whether they have saving faith after they learn about Christ in Hell:

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

Hebrews 9:28 says after death and the "judgment" those judged "eagerly wait" for Christ's Second coming, for salvation. Therefore, the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) is "the second chance", in Greek krisis is a "trial, contest, selection…opinion or decision given"-Strong's Concordance. Clearly, all who repent and believe in Jesus "won" this "contest", because now they "eagerly wait for Him…for salvation".

My post list all the indications the Rich Man was not irredeemably wicked. You ignore them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I improved the argument, it treats some of the questions raised on this board. There is a mass of irrefutable scripture proofs a second chance has always existed for those not guilty of eternal sins:

"Does the Bible teach there is a second chance in the afterlife to be saved by Jesus?

Some believe we have only one life on earth to make our decision for or against God. Hebrews 9:27 says "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." They believe Jesus' parable reveals no second chance for the uncharitable Rich Man in Hell. When he asks Lazarus to warn his family about hell he is told they have sufficient warning in the Bible to take the opportunity to repent and be saved during this life.

However, the Hebrews text (Hebrews 9:28) says after death and the "judgment" the judged "eagerly wait" for Christ's Second coming, "for salvation". Therefore, the "judgment" (2920 κρίσις krisis) must be a "second chance", in Greek krisis is a "trial, contest, selection…opinion or decision given"-Strong's Concordance.

24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another--
26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment (2920 κρίσις krisis),
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 NKJ)

How can we be certain this trial isn't a judgment whether one died a Christian? That couldn't be said about the generations who died before Christ came. The context implies what is being judged: It is written: "He…appeared….once at the end of the ages…to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" so He would not "have…to suffer often since the foundation of the world" (Heb. 9:24-26) That would cover the generations alive before the 1st century. As belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for salvation or condemnation (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8) it follows the dead had the gospel of Christ preached to them so they can choose to live according to God in the spirit, after being judged according to men in the flesh (1 Pt. 4:6). That is "the trial", those who receive Jesus as the Christ as the Son of God are saved, live according to God in the spirit and eagerly wait for Christ's second coming, for salvation, the resurrection to life. Having heard and obeyed Christ's voice while in the grave they done good (John 5:28-29).

ALL humanity goes through the same trial. Therefore, all who repent and believe in Jesus during their trial have Jesus as the propitiation for their sins just as the scripture promises: "And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world [1]" (1 Jn. 2:2 ).

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς)
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Jesus promised "the dead in the grave "will hear His voice" and "those who have done good" will rise to the "resurrection of life". The wording parallels what Christ said about the living who hear and obey His voice:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (John 5:24 KJV)

Jesus used the same phrase ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς (hear his voice) in both John 5:24, 28. As it refers to obedient hearing leading to eternal life in John 5:24, it means obedient hearing will result in life in John 5:28-29. All who obey Christ's voice whether alive or dead shall live, be given eternal life.

What about Jesus' parable?

To begin with, its not a parable, it’s a prophecy Christ would send the risen Lazarus to the mocking Pharisees (Luke 16:14) and they would treat Lazarus (John 12:9-11) just as they treated Moses and the prophets, rejecting their testimony about Christ (Luke 16:29-31). As a "prophecy" it is truth, not "false prophecy."

The context implies a second chance exists for the Rich Man.

1.)Rather than a self-absorbed man who curses both Abraham and God for his plight, the Rich Man shows selfless concern for his family (Luke 16:. 2.) Abraham affectionately calls the Rich Man "son" (Luke 16:25). It is impossible Abraham would speak affectionately if the Rich Man were an irredeemable enemy of God: "Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate you? And do I not loathe those who rise up against you?" (Psalm 139:21). 3.) Abraham and others wanted to comfort the Rich Man, but an impassible chasm prevented them (Luke 16:26). It is impossible the redeemed would rebelliously want to subvert God's punishment of the wicked (Rev. 15:3-4). Therefore, the scene does not depict God's punishment. 5) When the Rich Man cried "I am tormented (3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) in this flame (5395 φλόξ phlox)", his words convey meaning many don't see. The Rich Man is in "sorrow" (cp. Acts 20:38 3600 ὀδυνάω odunao) for his sins, for the first time he is 100% aware how badly he missed the mark of God's perfection. God's inspection, His "eyes like a flame of fire" are bringing every dark secret and sin to the light, all self-delusion is being purged. Just as it is written: The Lord has washed away the filth… and purged the blood of Jerusalem…by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning" (Isa. 4:4 NKJ)

Christ's prophecy to the Pharisees revealed even the children of Abraham(Matthew 3:9-10) like the Rich Man, if they die enemies of the gospel rejecting His authority, they will be chastised in Hades contrary to their belief Abraham would not permit an Israelite enter Hades: “In the world to come Abraham sits at the gate of Gehenna, permitting none to enter who bears the seal of the covenant” (Genesis Rabbah xlviii). Paul touches on this subject declaring "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable". All Israel will be saved even if they must pass suffer the torments of hell first (Romans 11:26-33; 1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

Those who have not committed eternal sins will be purged of all that subverts their ability to make the free will confession Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and have life in His Name (John 20:28-31). All addiction to sin and self-delusion is burned away by the torment (931 βάσανος basano) of God's inspection, revealing the truth of the individual, who he really is. Once liberated and fully able to make a free will choice the gospel of Christ is preached, for belief or non-belief in Christ are the only grounds for judgment (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8). Therefore, only after a definite and formal presentment of the Gospel of Christ is made to a soul fully capable of making an informed and free judgment will God judge the conscious and deliberate acceptance or rejection of Christ.

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

 

[Highway54]

I looked for where you discussed the scriptures I cited as proof the Bible teaches the second chance, but couldn't find it. I have no comment on your beliefs.

There are those that could be considered to have a second chance Alfred Persson based on the Scripture you posted are Heb 9:27 which states it is appointed for us to die once. Likely you are familiar with the resurrection sir, all those who survive the day of God's anger Zeph 2:3; Rev 7:14 will come to life at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5. Thus actually having that second chance, likely that is what you are thinking about.

On the other hand those who side with satan after his release Rev 20:7,8 will get cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, their second chance is now gone. The final judgment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are those that could be considered to have a second chance Alfred Persson based on the Scripture you posted are Heb 9:27 which states it is appointed for us to die once. Likely you are familiar with the resurrection sir, all those who survive the day of God's anger Zeph 2:3; Rev 7:14 will come to life at the end of the thousand years Rev 20:5. Thus actually having that second chance, likely that is what you are thinking about.

On the other hand those who side with satan after his release Rev 20:7,8 will get cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death, their second chance is now gone. The final judgment.

No, we don't agree about resurrection. The church is raised at the Rapture. When Christ judges the Sheep and Goats (Church goers who failed to become Christians in time), Christians are seated with Christ and His angels, as Kings and Priests. "These my Brethren (Mt. 25:40; Rm. 8:29) were "gathered" (2 Thess. 2:1) from the earth during Christ's coming in glory. They reign with Christ as Kings and Priests (Rev. 1:6; 20:4-6; 1 Thess. 4:14-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-58; Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 14:14-16). Because they believed in Christ when physically alive, they do not "come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24). As Christ's "Brethren" they have authority to judge the unsaved with Christ (Mt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 6:3; Rev. 20:4), the "firstborn among many brethren" (Rm. 8:29).

The resurrection on Judgement Day concerns first those who remained faithful to God during Christ's Millennial Kingdom but were still spiritually dead; then Death and Hades are emptied, and the dead are judged and the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous occurs. All who passed the "trial" in hell are raised to the resurrection of life.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:11-13 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

God is fair.

Survivors of Armageddon who didn't take the mark enter the millennial kingdom, that's their second chance.

Adam and Eve and all who died since the foundation of the world without Christ can believe in Him in hell and wait for Judgment Day to be raised to life. That's their second chance.

The Sheep and Goats who failed to commit to Christ are given their second chance according to whether they aided Christ's brethren (Christians) during the Tribulation. The Sheep are changed in a twinkling of an eye and join Christians who are seated with Christ and His angels.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:31-40 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

No, we don't agree about resurrection. The church is raised at the Rapture. When Christ judges the Sheep and Goats (Church goers who failed to become Christians in time), Christians are seated with Christ and His angels, as Kings and Priests. "These my Brethren (Mt. 25:40; Rm. 8:29) were "gathered" (2 Thess. 2:1) from the earth during Christ's coming in glory. They reign with Christ as Kings and Priests (Rev. 1:6; 20:4-6; 1 Thess. 4:14-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-58; Mat. 24:29-31; Rev. 14:14-16). Because they believed in Christ when physically alive, they do not "come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24). As Christ's "Brethren" they have authority to judge the unsaved with Christ (Mt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 6:3; Rev. 20:4), the "firstborn among many brethren" (Rm. 8:29).

The resurrection on Judgement Day concerns first those who remained faithful to God during Christ's Millennial Kingdom but were still spiritually dead; then Death and Hades are emptied, and the dead are judged and the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous occurs. All who passed the "trial" in hell are raised to the resurrection of life.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:11-13 NKJ)

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

God is fair.

Survivors of Armageddon who didn't take the mark enter the millennial kingdom, that's their second chance.

Adam and Eve and all who died since the foundation of the world without Christ can believe in Him in hell and wait for Judgment Day to be raised to life. That's their second chance.

The Sheep and Goats who failed to commit to Christ are given their second chance according to whether they aided Christ's brethren (Christians) during the Tribulation. The Sheep are changed in a twinkling of an eye and join Christians who are seated with Christ and His angels.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 `for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 `I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying,`Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
38 `When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
39 `Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them,`Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' (Matt. 25:31-40 NKJ)

No, we don't agree about resurrection. The church is raised at the Rapture.

I understand your thinking on this, and to tell you the truth I am confused about the time of it's occurrence. Time will tell who is correct I guess, as it has either happened or not. It will be invisible to humans I would quite imagine.

Survivors of Armageddon who didn't take the mark enter the millennial kingdom, that's their second chance.

Those who survive armageddon are of course protected by God, judged righteous, purchased with the blood of the lamb Rev 7:14. They will have proved worthy through their obedience of the scriptures you posted, for their assistance to Christ's brothers who go to heaven to serve as those Kings and Priests along side King Jesus. And you are quite correct, they will not have received the mark of the beast, any more than their anointed brothers and sisters did.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I understand your thinking on this, and to tell you the truth I am confused about the time of it's occurrence. Time will tell who is correct I guess, as it has either happened or not. It will be invisible to humans I would quite imagine.

Those who survive armageddon are of course protected by God, judged righteous, purchased with the blood of the lamb Rev 7:14. They will have proved worthy through their obedience of the scriptures you posted, for their assistance to Christ's brothers who go to heaven to serve as those Kings and Priests along side King Jesus. And you are quite correct, they will not have received the mark of the beast, any more than their anointed brothers and sisters did.

The timing of the 1st resurrection (which includes all who died in Christ) is at the "last trump" which is just before the bowls of God's wrath are poured out (Rev. 14:14-16):

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52 NKJ)

The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church | End Time News

Of the three established views on the Rapture, pre-, mid- and post-tribulation, only the "pre-wrath rapture" followed by angels gathering the elect from the four winds at Christ's coming, harmonizes all the Biblical data. 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our...

endtimenews.net

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Disproves the Pretribulation Rapture Theory | End Time News

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one

endtimenews.net

Our Lord's "coming" (3952 παρουσία Parousia) literally "presence" is like the coming of a King. His "presence" is felt before He is visible. How long precisely the Bible doesn't say, but the "sign of Christ's coming" (Mt. 24:3, 30) which is an opening in the sky (Rev. 19:11) perhaps like a "stargate flashing lightning" (Mt. 24:27) appears first while His army gathers near it, and everyone on earth can see the heavenly army gathering. During this time the First resurrection/rapture of the church occurs:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:15-18 NKJ)

14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:14-17 NKJ)

Many of us will volunteer to join Christ's heavenly army to slay the Beast's human and fallen angel army gathered at Armageddon. In our resurrection bodies we will be more than a match for them:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. (Ps. 110:3 NKJ)

As for the survivors of Armageddon, those who didn't do eternal sins (Mk. 3:29; 9:42-48) or weren't lawless (against God's law) or offensive to our Holy God (Mt. 13:41-42; 49-50; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Eph. 5:5-6) are allowed into the Millennial Kingdom but remain spiritually dead. They must obey Christ and His Kings and Priests (the church) during the 1,000 years and will be judged on Judgment Day. Those who sin during the 1,000 years are cast into the lake of fire (Isa. 65:20):

7 When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (Rev. 20:7-9 CSB)

12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 CSB)

So survivors of Armageddon do not become Kings and priests with the church, their change from death to life in immortal resurrection bodies happens on Judgment Day provided they remained faithful to Christ during the 1,000 years.

Then Death and Hades are emptied out and all the human dead from Adam and Eve onward who became Christians in hell rise to a resurrection of life. The wicked rise up in abominable bodies reeking of corruption and decay (Gal. 6:8) to a resurrection of condemnation

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

There is a "second chance trial" in hell, but no one leaves hell until Judgment Day, the "Day of the Lord Jesus":

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)

When a person responds favorably to the gospel preached to the dead, they pass the "trial/judgment" but they remain in Hades, albeit now "live according to God in the spirit" which implies they are "at rest" and not suffering at all:


For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But no one can cross over from hell to heaven (Abraham and Lazarus) because a great gulf prevents it. But on judgment day Hell is emptied out, and everyone rises according to their status. If believers, they rise in glorious bodies like all the Church has. If wicked, hideous bodies reeking of corruption and death that cause them shame:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan. 12:2-3 NKJ)

As their names weren't added to the book of life, they are judged and cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15 NKJ)

 

[Highway54]

The timing of the 1st resurrection (which includes all who died in Christ) is at the "last trump" which is just before the bowls of God's wrath are poured out (Rev. 14:14-16):

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51-52 NKJ)

The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church | End Time News

Of the three established views on the Rapture, pre-, mid- and post-tribulation, only the "pre-wrath rapture" followed by angels gathering the elect from the four winds at Christ's coming, harmonizes all the Biblical data. 1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our...

endtimenews.net

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Disproves the Pretribulation Rapture Theory | End Time News

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one

endtimenews.net

Our Lord's "coming" (3952 παρουσία Parousia) literally "presence" is like the coming of a King. His "presence" is felt before He is visible. How long precisely the Bible doesn't say, but the "sign of Christ's coming" (Mt. 24:3, 30) which is an opening in the sky (Rev. 19:11) perhaps like a "stargate flashing lightning" (Mt. 24:27) appears first while His army gathers near it, and everyone on earth can see the heavenly army gathering. During this time the First resurrection/rapture of the church occurs:

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:15-18 NKJ)

14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?" (Rev. 6:14-17 NKJ)

Many of us will volunteer to join Christ's heavenly army to slay the Beast's human and fallen angel army gathered at Armageddon. In our resurrection bodies we will be more than a match for them:

Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth. (Ps. 110:3 NKJ)

As for the survivors of Armageddon, those who didn't do eternal sins (Mk. 3:29; 9:42-48) or weren't lawless (against God's law) or offensive to our Holy God (Mt. 13:41-42; 49-50; 1 Cor. 6:9-10; Eph. 5:5-6) are allowed into the Millennial Kingdom but remain spiritually dead. They must obey Christ and His Kings and Priests (the church) during the 1,000 years and will be judged on Judgment Day. Those who sin during the 1,000 years are cast into the lake of fire (Isa. 65:20):

7 When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea.
9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (Rev. 20:7-9 CSB)

12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. (Rev. 20:12 CSB)

So survivors of Armageddon do not become Kings and priests with the church, their change from death to life in immortal resurrection bodies happens on Judgment Day provided they remained faithful to Christ during the 1,000 years.

Then Death and Hades are emptied out and all the human dead from Adam and Eve onward who became Christians in hell rise to a resurrection of life. The wicked rise up in abominable bodies reeking of corruption and decay (Gal. 6:8) to a resurrection of condemnation

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. (Rev. 20:13 NKJ)


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

There is a "second chance trial" in hell, but no one leaves hell until Judgment Day, the "Day of the Lord Jesus":

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)

When a person responds favorably to the gospel preached to the dead, they pass the "trial/judgment" but they remain in Hades, albeit now "live according to God in the spirit" which implies they are "at rest" and not suffering at all:


For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But no one can cross over from hell to heaven (Abraham and Lazarus) because a great gulf prevents it. But on judgment day Hell is emptied out, and everyone rises according to their status. If believers, they rise in glorious bodies like all the Church has. If wicked, hideous bodies reeking of corruption and death that cause them shame:

2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever. (Dan. 12:2-3 NKJ)

As their names weren't added to the book of life, they are judged and cast into the lake of fire:

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:13-15 NKJ)

You have gotten into a considerable time period sir, on a personal level I do not understand the timing of the first resurrection, but we of my faith believe it has happened already. I get a bit confused by the account recorded for us at 1 Thes 4:16 which I do not believe has happened yet. So I cannot confirm at this time if the first resurrection has occurred or not, I will research it more and see what I find out.

I do agree that Jesus presence has began as he gave in Mat 24, and that we are very near his return as well.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You have gotten into a considerable time period sir, on a personal level I do not understand the timing of the first resurrection, but we of my faith believe it has happened already. I get a bit confused by the account recorded for us at 1 Thes 4:16 which I do not believe has happened yet. So I cannot confirm at this time if the first resurrection has occurred or not, I will research it more and see what I find out.

I do agree that Jesus presence has began as he gave in Mat 24, and that we are very near his return as well.

Let's act like Sherlock Holmes and deduce from fact what is true.

Fact, the First Resurrection happens to "souls who had been beheaded...had not worshiped the beast." As that time has not yet come, it is "elementary" (logically speaking), the "first resurrection" has not yet happened:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 NKJ)

As for "pre-tribulation Rapture", good Christians have been convinced they will be raptured before the arrival of the "Man of Sin...Son of Perdition." But the only way they can believe that is to deny Providential Preservation of Scripture and trust unbelievers who claim the Bible used by the Church since the apostles contains errors:

Fact: The "day of Christ" is the time of His second coming, and the "Man of Sin...Son of Destruction" cannot come before that time. That means, the Rapture cannot happen before we see the Antichrist arrive:


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:1-4 NKJ)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Disproves the Pretribulation Rapture Theory | End Time News

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one

endtimenews.net

I believe the false teaching of "pre-tribulation rapture" (believed by otherwise good Christians), is the primary reason why this will happen in the end time:

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
(Matt. 24:9-10 NKJ)

As the Beast is slaughtering Christians for not accepting the Mark or worshipping him, Church Goers who believed in "pretribulation rapture" will feel betrayed. They will blame God and the Bible and begin to ridicule the faith, mock it and they will betray Christians, to the Beast:

and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (2 Pet. 3:4 NKJ)

The ONLY thing we can be certain of, the Bible is 100% correct. Don't give place to the Devil, his main strategy for destroying obedience to God's Word, is to cast doubt upon it...."Did God really say that?":

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden '?" (Gen. 3:1 CSB)


The Word of God says the "Man of Sin" will not come before the Day of Christ, therefore pre-tribulation rapture is impossible.

 

[Highway54]

Let's act like Sherlock Holmes and deduce from fact what is true.

Fact, the First Resurrection happens to "souls who had been beheaded...had not worshiped the beast." As that time has not yet come, it is "elementary" (logically speaking), the "first resurrection" has not yet happened:

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 NKJ)

As for "pre-tribulation Rapture", good Christians have been convinced they will be raptured before the arrival of the "Man of Sin...Son of Perdition." But the only way they can believe that is to deny Providential Preservation of Scripture and trust unbelievers who claim the Bible used by the Church since the apostles contains errors:

Fact: The "day of Christ" is the time of His second coming, and the "Man of Sin...Son of Destruction" cannot come before that time. That means, the Rapture cannot happen before we see the Antichrist arrive:


1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:1-4 NKJ)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Disproves the Pretribulation Rapture Theory | End Time News

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one

endtimenews.net

I believe the false teaching of "pre-tribulation rapture" (believed by otherwise good Christians), is the primary reason why this will happen in the end time:

9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.
10 "And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
(Matt. 24:9-10 NKJ)

As the Beast is slaughtering Christians for not accepting the Mark or worshipping him, Church Goers who believed in "pretribulation rapture" will feel betrayed. They will blame God and the Bible and begin to ridicule the faith, mock it and they will betray Christians, to the Beast:

and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." (2 Pet. 3:4 NKJ)

The ONLY thing we can be certain of, the Bible is 100% correct. Don't give place to the Devil, his main strategy for destroying obedience to God's Word, is to cast doubt upon it...."Did God really say that?":

Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden '?" (Gen. 3:1 CSB)


The Word of God says the "Man of Sin" will not come before the Day of Christ, therefore pre-tribulation rapture is impossible.

The Word of God says the "Man of Sin" will not come before the Day of Christ, therefore pre-tribulation rapture is impossible.

I believe you are correct on this Alfred, as Mat 24:22 clearly indicates Christ's return will be to save those, so clearly they are still there.

I did research it further and came to this conclusion:
First Resurrection
(Revelation 20:6) . . .Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

What? The first resurrection is of the anointed Christians who have died prior to his presence.

When? In speaking of it 1st Thes 4:15-17 says: 1th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 1th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This can be quite confusing as without doing further research it appears to say at Jesus’ return all will basically meet him in the clouds. It also appears that there are two distinct groups that will meet him in the air, and the secondary would not precede those who rose first. So let’s do further research. In verse 15 the coming of the Lord sets the time, but the original word for coming was Parousia, and is defined as:
parousiva Parousia (par-oo-see'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 3952

presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
Jesus used the same term to the apostles about his “coming” at Mat 24:3. Jesus revealed that from that point till his actual coming at the end of the tribulation would not exceed a generations life span v34, we call these the last days.

So based on these passages we believe that those anointed Christians who died from the first century until his initial presence, were resurrected prior to his actual coming in which all the remainder of them would meet the Lord in the air upon his return, what many call the rapture.

Another descriptive account of it found at 1 Cor 15 says: 1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.

This reveals another stage of gathering of those anointed ones, Christ was the first. In verse 51,52 Paul brings the aspect of the rapture of those remaining alive at Jesus’ return: 1co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Thus completing the complete gathering of the anointed ones to Christ upon his return at the end of the great tribulation so that those elect ones would not perish: Mt 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect`s sake those days shall be shortened.


This may or may not be correct, but is Scripturally feasible.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe you are correct on this Alfred, as Mat 24:22 clearly indicates Christ's return will be to save those, so clearly they are still there.

I did research it further and came to this conclusion:
First Resurrection
(Revelation 20:6) . . .Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years.

What? The first resurrection is of the anointed Christians who have died prior to his presence.

When? In speaking of it 1st Thes 4:15-17 says: 1th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 1th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 1th 4:17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
This can be quite confusing as without doing further research it appears to say at Jesus’ return all will basically meet him in the clouds. It also appears that there are two distinct groups that will meet him in the air, and the secondary would not precede those who rose first. So let’s do further research. In verse 15 the coming of the Lord sets the time, but the original word for coming was Parousia, and is defined as:
parousiva Parousia (par-oo-see'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 3952

presence
the coming, arrival, advent
the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God
Jesus used the same term to the apostles about his “coming” at Mat 24:3. Jesus revealed that from that point till his actual coming at the end of the tribulation would not exceed a generations life span v34, we call these the last days.

So based on these passages we believe that those anointed Christians who died from the first century until his initial presence, were resurrected prior to his actual coming in which all the remainder of them would meet the Lord in the air upon his return, what many call the rapture.

Another descriptive account of it found at 1 Cor 15 says: 1co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ`s, at his coming.

This reveals another stage of gathering of those anointed ones, Christ was the first. In verse 51,52 Paul brings the aspect of the rapture of those remaining alive at Jesus’ return: 1co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Thus completing the complete gathering of the anointed ones to Christ upon his return at the end of the great tribulation so that those elect ones would not perish: Mt 24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect`s sake those days shall be shortened.


This may or may not be correct, but is Scripturally feasible.

Well done, a thought provoking article and I agree, the exegesis is Scripturally possible.

And your post caused me to ponder my assumptions about the length of Christ's presence.

Christ's words about His presence do suggest it could span a generation. But not if "this generation etc." is idiom for "quickly."


John implied, "once things begin they must occur in rapid fashion", presumably to fit the end time "week" of seven years:

αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει
"which[things] it is necessary to occur in quickness" (Rev. 1:1 my Literal Translation)

But, you could be right. The actual span of time could be that long. I think His "presence" begins with the start of the signs and I see them all occurring within 7 years, the EndTime Week revealed in Daniel and Revelation.


We agree the 1st resurrection "gathers" the dead in Christ first, then those alive (raptured). But to say they are "first" doesn't require great time separates the groups.

Suppose I say: "I won't go first into the movie; I will follow you." But as I'm right behind you that does not require much time between our entry into the theater. But separating the events does 'fit" the scripture better than basically making it one event.


Something to ponder. Christ spoke about the "sign of His presence".

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign (4592 σημεῖον semeion) of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matt. 24:3 NKJ)

"Then the sign (4592 σημεῖον semeion) of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:30 NKJ)

4592 σημεῖον semeion
Meaning: 1) a sign, mark, token 1a) that by which a person or a thing is distinguished from others and is known 1b) a sign, prodigy, portent, i.e. an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature 1b1) of signs portending remarkable events soon to happen.-Strong's Concordance, copied from BibleWorks 10.0

According to a first century text (Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) the sign of Jesus' coming would be an opening in the sky:

And then the signs of the truth shall appear: first, a sign of an opening in heaven; then a sign of the sound of a trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead. Now, not all of the dead but as was said, the Lord shall come and all the holy ones with him. Then the world will see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.-Brannan, R. (Trans.). (2012). The Apostolic Fathers in English. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

That Christ and His Holy Myriads (Jude 1:14) enter our realm through an opening in the sky is confirmed in the book of Revelation:

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. (Rev. 19:11-14 NKJ)

I'm a Sci-Fi lover, a huge "Stargate" comes to mind, like one used by the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy. Lightning flashing in the sky from east to west. I wonder if the writers of "Stargate SG1" stole the idea from the Bible and invented the evil Ori as a parody on scripture.

The Sign of Jesus’ Coming will be an Opening in the Heavens | End Time News

Both Matthew and Jesus refer to the sign of Jesus' coming as a sign event, something people will see in heaven: Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign (4592 σημεῖον semeion) of Your

endtimenews.net

 

[Highway54]

Well done, a thought provoking article and I agree, the exegesis is Scripturally possible.

And your post caused me to ponder my assumptions about the length of Christ's presence.

Christ's words about His presence do suggest it could span a generation. But not if "this generation etc." is idiom for "quickly."


John implied, "once things begin they must occur in rapid fashion", presumably to fit the end time "week" of seven years:

αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει
"which[things] it is necessary to occur in quickness" (Rev. 1:1 my Literal Translation)

But, you could be right. The actual span of time could be that long. I think His "presence" begins with the start of the signs and I see them all occurring within 7 years, the EndTime Week revealed in Daniel and Revelation.


We agree the 1st resurrection "gathers" the dead in Christ first, then those alive (raptured). But to say they are "first" doesn't require great time separates the groups.

Suppose I say: "I won't go first into the movie; I will follow you." But as I'm right behind you that does not require much time between our entry into the theater. But separating the events does 'fit" the scripture better than basically making it one event.


Something to ponder. Christ spoke about the "sign of His presence".






According to a first century text (Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles) the sign of Jesus' coming would be an opening in the sky:


That Christ and His Holy Myriads (Jude 1:14) enter our realm through an opening in the sky is confirmed in the book of Revelation:



I'm a Sci-Fi lover, a huge "Stargate" comes to mind, like one used by the Ancients in the Pegasus galaxy. Lightning flashing in the sky from east to west. I wonder if the writers of "Stargate SG1" stole the idea from the Bible and invented the evil Ori as a parody on scripture.

The Sign of Jesus’ Coming will be an Opening in the Heavens | End Time News

Both Matthew and Jesus refer to the sign of Jesus' coming as a sign event, something people will see in heaven: Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign (4592 σημεῖον semeion) of Your

endtimenews.net

And your post caused me to ponder my assumptions about the length of Christ's presence.

Christ's words about His presence do suggest it could span a generation. But not if "this generation etc." is idiom for "quickly."

Jesus indicated it would be much longer than expected Alfred, in that even some of his anointed brothers that shepherds his sheep during his presence would fall away saying their master is delaying (similar to the parable of the virgins) Mat 24:48 So even to those of the bride it would appear late, but Jesus assurred us that from the start to the finish that generation would not be completely gone.

From your favorite Sci fy I assume you are much younger than me sir, I be 69 and a lover of sci fy as well, but more along the line of Them, and Tarantula etc2

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus indicated it would be much longer than expected Alfred, in that even some of his anointed brothers that shepherds his sheep during his presence would fall away saying their master is delaying (similar to the parable of the virgins) Mat 24:48 So even to those of the bride it would appear late, but Jesus assurred us that from the start to the finish that generation would not be completely gone.

From your favorite Sci fy I assume you are much younger than me sir, I be 69 and a lover of sci fy as well, but more along the line of Them, and Tarantula etc2

We are the same age. Christ is nearer than when we first believed, in more ways than one!

While is correct the virgins etc apply to every generation, I notice that parable appears in the same context as the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats. I discovered the early church believed the Sheep and Goats were BOTH CHURCHGOERS, but neither made the commitment to Christ. So Christ receives those who put what they heard to practice, but those who did not are cast into the eternal flame. You can see my take on it here:

The Judgment of the Sheep and Goats At Christ’s Return | End Time News

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations (1484 ἔθνος ethnos) will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the

endtimenews.net

 

[Highway54]

We are the same age. Christ is nearer than when we first believed, in more ways than one!

While is correct the virgins etc apply to every generation, I notice that parable appears in the same context as the Judgment of the Sheep and Goats. I discovered the early church believed the Sheep and Goats were BOTH CHURCHGOERS, but neither made the commitment to Christ. So Christ receives those who put what they heard to practice, but those who did not are cast into the eternal flame. You can see my take on it here:

The Judgment of the Sheep and Goats At Christ’s Return | End Time News

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations (1484 ἔθνος ethnos) will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the

endtimenews.net

While is correct the virgins etc apply to every generation

After reading this Alfred, can you discern the time period sir:
Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mt 25:11 Afterward * * came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mt 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[Alfred Persson]

After reading this Alfred, can you discern the time period sir:
Mt 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mt 25:11 Afterward * * came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mt 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mt 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The time of Christ's second coming .

As no generation knows when that will be, it applies to every generation since Christ. All should "keep on watch".

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

 

[Highway54]

The time of Christ's second coming .

As no generation knows when that will be, it applies to every generation since Christ. All should "keep on watch".

Does the Bible teach there is a Second Chance to be saved by Jesus? | End Time News

Scriptural Proof Universal Opportunity for Salvation in Jesus Spans this life and the After-life God is to us a God of deliverances; And to Yahweh the Lord belong escapes from death. (Ps. 68:20) As Christ alone is the Door to Salvation, what is the fate of those born before His time, or in...

endtimenews.net

Exactly! The time of his coming. Do you believe we are in the last days Jesus spoke of in Mat 24 Alfred?