ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[pretrib]

There are two comings of the lord from heaven,the first decending of Christ from heaven is to gather the believers(rapture),the second descending of Christ from heaven is with the believers that He already gathered to defeat the antichrist. The pre-trib concept is screwed up because it is claiming that the return Jesus gave to the church is DIFFERENT than the return of Jesus described by Paul, they are described the same and the time frame is the same and they are the same. The tribulation Jesus described that would precede His return is a great persecution, not the wrath of God, after the church is gathered THEN the wrath of God begins and later Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist. Pre-trib is off because they call the tribulation that Jesus described the wrath of God when it is not, they are also off because they claim Paul described a different return than Jesus described(not in scripture).

Hi Sam21,..I hope you are having a great and blessed day.

You Quote:
The tribulation Jesus described that would precede His return is a great persecution, not the wrath of God, after the church is gathered THEN the wrath of God begins and later Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist. Pre-trib is off because they call the tribulation that Jesus described the wrath of God when it is not, they are also off because they claim Paul described a different return than Jesus described(not in scripture).

My Reply:
No my friend,..I am not off as you state.

The Wrath of God begins with Ezsekiel 38;18,19,and 20
This lines up with Revelation 6;12 through 17.....But you would need to correctly divide this scripture to understand it's chronological order,..and of course,..The whole of Joel 2 lines up with Ezekiel 38.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Sam21,..I hope you are having a great and blessed day.

You Quote:
The tribulation Jesus described that would precede His return is a great persecution, not the wrath of God, after the church is gathered THEN the wrath of God begins and later Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist. Pre-trib is off because they call the tribulation that Jesus described the wrath of God when it is not, they are also off because they claim Paul described a different return than Jesus described(not in scripture).

My Reply:
No my friend,..I am not off as you state.

The Wrath of God begins with Ezsekiel 38;18,19,and 20
This lines up with Revelation 6;12 through 17.....But you would need to correctly divide this scripture to understand it's chronological order,..and of course,..The whole of Joel 2 lines up with Ezekiel 38.

acts 2
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.’[b]

hmm that is in reference to when the holy ghost came to the believers ie the pentecost. so that was fulfilled.

theres no historical evidence of a bloody moon which would imply the idea of a eclipse of the moon by the earth whereby the moon turns red. i have seen that event recently in florida and that would tell us exactly when that even happened as we can by lunar cycles and solar calenders know these things.

 

[Lehigh3]

Me thinks that someone came back with a new name- but with the same spoon-fed dispy agenda.

But I'm out of this thread. Work it out between ya!

Remember to who & when & by what criteria Christians had to appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive the things done in the "body." And Peter said that the time had come for judgment to begin at the house of God.

Regarding judgment:
(John 16:8-11)

 

[jasoncran]

i am awaiting the preterists to post. i have been gentle. i have even touched their ideas as i am not one of them.but some of their views have merit.

 

[Hitch]

i am awaiting the preterists to post. i have been gentle. i have even touched their ideas as i am not one of them.but some of their views have merit.

As usual Jason ,Im content to quote Jesus;

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

 

[pretrib]

i monitor what isreal does. but uh for ezekiel 38 to come to pass the jews must know their tribes!i am jewish and i dont know the tribe i come from only the jews with the last name cohen or cohn are considered levites.

btw you assume much. i do buy that isreal will face some trials. and accept the antichrist.

wow calling me unsaved over eschatological differences. hmm, i guess all those sainst such as luther. knox, calvin who didnt know about the pret-trib doctrine wont be in heaven.

again. you cant tell me that he comes twice, he came three times per your view.
first to save men.then to rapture the saints then to judge the earth.

that makes it three.

You Quote:
i monitor what isreal does. but uh for ezekiel 38 to come to pass the jews must know their tribes!i am jewish and i dont know the tribe i come from only the jews with the last name cohen or cohn are considered levites.

My Reply:
Well first of all.."Shalom"....HeY!..I know how to say..Please give me some icecream in Hebrew!
You may not know what tribe you come from,..but the Holy Spirit does I assure you,....But based on scripture,..the only requirement for Ezekiel 38 to come to pass,..is that Israel be dwelling in peace carelessly and the world know that she is(Ezekiel 38;11-14)

You Quote:
btw you assume much. i do buy that isreal will face some trials. and accept the antichrist

My Reply:
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
But when the A.O.D. comes to pass,..they will realize that they have been deceived and will flee.

You Quote:
wow calling me unsaved over eschatological differences. hmm, i guess all those sainst such as luther. knox, calvin who didnt know about the pret-trib doctrine wont be in heaven.

My Reply:
The only requirement for eternal savation is that you believe in God's only begotten Son..Jesus the Christ.But it helps to listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit when He nudges you injto the direction of truth in endtime prophecy.

You Quote:

again. you cant tell me that he comes twice, he came three times per your view.
first to save men.then to rapture the saints then to judge the earth.


My Reply:
I do not have a problem with this,.......I agree with this,... "three times".

 

[reba]

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary told not to touch Him


Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


Eight days later Thomas is told to touch Him and He is eating…..


Jesus was born 1 trip to earth
Some time after Mary (John 20,17)

He ascended.

Because Thomas is touching Him...

So that would be a second trip

Now we re waiting again and some folks say He will return a couple more times.

 

[jasoncran]

thats a first. as uh when they are unified its under him as king not as under the ac.

here:

Ezekiel 37


1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

that wont happen till after the destruction of the anti-christ,this implies that clearly

and isreal of today isnt really following God is she.?

they deny the messiah them that are jews?they allow abortions and gay marriages.so that has to change.

this is in regard clearly to when the jerusalem is united under the lords and when they say baruchba beshem adonai.

the jews from judea are primarily either benjaminites or judeans. a few be may as i stated levites or other tribes.but its not what its is here clearly.

 

[jasoncran]

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary told not to touch Him


Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


Eight days later Thomas is told to touch Him and He is eating…..


Jesus was born 1 trip to earth
Some time after Mary (John 20,17)

He ascended.

Because Thomas is touching Him...

So that would be a second trip

Now we re waiting again and some folks say He will return a couple more times.

actually this is the ascenscion for he told mary that he hadnt ascended to the father and wasnt glorified.

acts 1

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

[pretrib]

acts 2
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words. 15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. 16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.’[b]

hmm that is in reference to when the holy ghost came to the believers ie the pentecost. so that was fulfilled.

theres no historical evidence of a bloody moon which would imply the idea of a eclipse of the moon by the earth whereby the moon turns red. i have seen that event recently in florida and that would tell us exactly when that even happened as we can by lunar cycles and solar calenders know these things.

You fail to observe the following..."17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,"........."LAST DAYS"...Still future

It may also be helpful to see the last days as something like a "season," a general period of time, more than a more specific period, such as a week. In the whole span of God's plan for human history, we are in the "season" of the last days.

Though there were still to be some 2,000 years until Jesus returned, until this point, history had been running towards the point of the ultimate establishment of God's kingdom on earth. But from this time on, history runs parallel to that point, ready at any time for the consummation.

Joe 2:3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and none has escaped [the ravages of the devouring hordes].

My Reply:
For a long time before May 14, 1948 and in the early days when Israel was declared a nation,...the Land was desolate and barren.
But it was prophesied that Israel would become like the garden of Eden.
Ezekiel 36:35 (New King James Version)
35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’

Also Joel 2;16 says:
Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

So it is at the time just moments before this invasion of Israel in the Ezekial 38 battle when the Rapture of the Bride would occur.

Also,...Joel 2;20
20“I will drive the northern army far from you,

pushing it into a parched and barren land,

with its front columns going into the eastern seab

and those in the rear into the western sea.c

And its stench will go up;

its smell will rise.â€

This is a geographical description of Russia and surrounding nations.
When one reads Ezekial 38;15 King James Amplified bible,....It states that it is the power from the utter most north that attacks Israel.
If you were to draw a line beginning with Jerusalem drawing due north not moving a hair space to the left or right,...you will find that you have drawn a line straight thru Moscow Russia center for center!
Ezekial 39;11
Talks about that bad smell that you read here in Joel 2;20

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers : and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.
We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.
Ezekial 38;18-20
which matches perfectly with revelation 6;14-17, Isaiah 2;19,
Joel 2
Take notice that this Ezekial 38 battle occurs when Israel and the World believes that they are dwelling safely.

Now,..the Lord could have described the flood in detail,...BUT! He did not! Instead He chose to point out a scenerio that they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.Just as the world was saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.(i Thessalonians 5;3)Verse 4;16-17 occurs "BEFORE" verse 5;3
Ezekial 38...describes that the world was living in peace and Israel and the world was not expecting an attack against Israel which is also the time that God's FURY came up in His face, Gods Wrath had Been activated by this attack..It is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"
The two women grinding at the mill,..a description of normal life,..The Lord added this description to make sure all the einstein's and little rose peddles, of the world clearly got the picture that He intended


What I am pointing out is that the Day of the Lord begins with Exekial 38;18-20....which matches with revelation 6;14-17.....and joel 2 and that the rapture(Caught Up) occurs just before Gods Wrath(Look at above description again)

Jesus is coming to take us home people,...Get Ready,..Whoo Hoo!

 

[pretrib]

thats a first. as uh when they are unified its under him as king not as under the ac.

here:

Ezekiel 37


1The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,
2And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
3And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
4Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
5Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
6And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
7So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
8And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
9Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
10So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
11Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
12Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 28And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

that wont happen till after the destruction of the anti-christ,this implies that clearly

and isreal of today isnt really following God is she.?

they deny the messiah them that are jews?they allow abortions and gay marriages.so that has to change.

this is in regard clearly to when the jerusalem is united under the lords and when they say baruchba beshem adonai.

the jews from judea are primarily either benjaminites or judeans. a few be may as i stated levites or other tribes.but its not what its is here clearly.

Well yes and no...What I nmean is that Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy that is still ongoing today and will see it's completion when the Lord returns.

 

[jasoncran]

You fail to observe the following..."17 ‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,"........."LAST DAYS"...Still future

It may also be helpful to see the last days as something like a "season," a general period of time, more than a more specific period, such as a week. In the whole span of God's plan for human history, we are in the "season" of the last days.

Though there were still to be some 2,000 years until Jesus returned, until this point, history had been running towards the point of the ultimate establishment of God's kingdom on earth. But from this time on, history runs parallel to that point, ready at any time for the consummation.

Joe 2:3 A fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns; the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yes, and none has escaped [the ravages of the devouring hordes].

My Reply:
For a long time before May 14, 1948 and in the early days when Israel was declared a nation,...the Land was desolate and barren.
But it was prophesied that Israel would become like the garden of Eden.
Ezekiel 36:35 (New King James Version)
35 So they will say, ‘This land that was desolate has become like the garden of Eden; and the wasted, desolate, and ruined cities are now fortified and inhabited.’

Also Joel 2;16 says:
Let the bridegroom leave his room

and the bride her chamber.

So it is at the time just moments before this invasion of Israel in the Ezekial 38 battle when the Rapture of the Bride would occur.

Also,...Joel 2;20
20“I will drive the northern army far from you,

pushing it into a parched and barren land,

with its front columns going into the eastern seab

and those in the rear into the western sea.c

And its stench will go up;

its smell will rise.â€

This is a geographical description of Russia and surrounding nations.
When one reads Ezekial 38;15 King James Amplified bible,....It states that it is the power from the utter most north that attacks Israel.
If you were to draw a line beginning with Jerusalem drawing due north not moving a hair space to the left or right,...you will find that you have drawn a line straight thru Moscow Russia center for center!
Ezekial 39;11
Talks about that bad smell that you read here in Joel 2;20

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers : and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

When you read Ezekial 38;18-20
This is when the Day of the Lord begins, that continues throughout all of Daniels 70th week the Time of Jacobs trouble.
We all know that the Bride is caught up to meet the Lord in the air just prior to the beginning Day of The Lord.
Ezekial 38;18-20
which matches perfectly with revelation 6;14-17, Isaiah 2;19,
Joel 2
Take notice that this Ezekial 38 battle occurs when Israel and the World believes that they are dwelling safely.

Now,..the Lord could have described the flood in detail,...BUT! He did not! Instead He chose to point out a scenerio that they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark.Just as the world was saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.(i Thessalonians 5;3)Verse 4;16-17 occurs "BEFORE" verse 5;3
Ezekial 38...describes that the world was living in peace and Israel and the world was not expecting an attack against Israel which is also the time that God's FURY came up in His face, Gods Wrath had Been activated by this attack..It is the beginning of the "Day of the Lord"
The two women grinding at the mill,..a description of normal life,..The Lord added this description to make sure all the einstein's and little rose peddles, of the world clearly got the picture that He intended


What I am pointing out is that the Day of the Lord begins with Exekial 38;18-20....which matches with revelation 6;14-17.....and joel 2 and that the rapture(Caught Up) occurs just before Gods Wrath(Look at above description again)

Jesus is coming to take us home people,...Get Ready,..Whoo Hoo!

lol.

hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


ok. so you buy into that hal lindsey deal.man that fool is still believed?

first off its been almost 70 yrs since isreal proclaimed,and uh they dont live in peace at all. surely you dont think that. they have never had any lengthy breaks in hostility at all. ie the six day war. the war of 1973, the invasion of lebanon in 2002 and also the war with syria.

hardly at peace.

i dont see the land of isreal at peace yet. i may not happen in my lifetime. doubtful.

 

[Hitch]

Well yes and no...What I nmean is that Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy that is still ongoing today and will see it's completion when the Lord returns.

So bible prophecy is being fulfilled today and the rapture can occur at any moment because ,,,there is no prophecy needing to be fulfilled before hand.?

 

[jasoncran]

Well yes and no...What I nmean is that Ezekiel 37 is a prophecy that is still ongoing today and will see it's completion when the Lord returns.

ok can you tell me why most american jews dont want to move to isreal?

most of jews are coming from poor countries that are oppressive.

but here in america most of the jews live hear.isreal accounts for only one third of the jewish world population.there are still more jews in america then isreal. not all isrealis are jews. you have arabs that are isreali.

i wouldnt mind visiting that land but i aint moving to a war zone.

 

[pretrib]

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Mary told not to touch Him


Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.


Luk 24:30 And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.


Eight days later Thomas is told to touch Him and He is eating…..


Jesus was born 1 trip to earth
Some time after Mary (John 20,17)

He ascended.

Because Thomas is touching Him...

So that would be a second trip

Now we re waiting again and some folks say He will return a couple more times.

When the Lord Arose from the Dead,..many came out of their graves,..Then,..there is a pre-trib rapture,..where all the dead and alive are raptured,..and then,...there is a resurrection shortly after armageddon,..all these are considered as the First resurrection in kind,..the shadow type for this can be found in the Jewish agricultural harvest. David Reagan

When the Lord ascended,...The angels said that He would return in like manner.

 

[jasoncran]

that doesnt support the idea of a pre trib rapture.

how then do the martyred trib saints make it to heaven and they cant be excluded from the rapture as well they are resurected if you expect consistency?

 

[pretrib]

ok can you tell me why most american jews dont want to move to isreal?

most of jews are coming from poor countries that are oppressive.

but here in america most of the jews live hear.isreal accounts for only one third of the jewish world population.there are still more jews in america then isreal. not all isrealis are jews. you have arabs that are isreali.

i wouldnt mind visiting that land but i aint moving to a war zone.

Glad you asked
There is a time coming soon, when Ezsekiel 38 will come to pass,..and the Creator of the Universe will destroy the invading armies that come against Israel.
The Jews from all over the world will have witnessed the Hand of God against her enemies,...and many many Jews will come from all over the earth back to Israel with one desire in their heart,..and that is to build the third temple unto God,.....but not all the Jews will return at that time.
It is possible that the third temple could be built prior to Daniels 70th week,...when Israel defeats all inner ring Arab neighbors that surround her borders in the coming Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 war that today you see brewing over in the middle east.
But the remainder of the Jews will be returned to Israel in the Matthew 24;31 prophecy.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
The Angelic Gathering
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:


The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.[15]


Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.[16] After noting that " from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," [17] Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:


First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).

. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]


What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]


Conclusion
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

 

[jasoncran]

Glad you asked
There is a time coming soon, when Ezsekiel 38 will come to pass,..and the Creator of the Universe will destroy the invading armies that come against Israel.
The Jews from all over the world will have witnessed the Hand of God against her enemies,...and many many Jews will come from all over the earth back to Israel with one desire in their heart,..and that is to build the third temple unto God,.....but not all the Jews will return at that time.
It is possible that the third temple could be built prior to Daniels 70th week,...when Israel defeats all inner ring Arab neighbors that surround her borders in the coming Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 war that today you see brewing over in the middle east.
But the remainder of the Jews will be returned to Israel in the Matthew 24;31 prophecy.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the word elect means chosen. In Old testament times, the elect were God’s Chosen people, the Jews (Isaiah 45:4). During this age the Church is God’s elect (1 Peter 1:1), and after the Church is gone Tribulation believers will be His elect. (Matt. 24:22) In the Millennium, Israel will once again be called God’s elect (Isaiah 65:22)
The Angelic Gathering
To me, the most convincing reason why Matthew 24:31 is not a rapture statement is found in the fact that this verse includes citations from Old Testament passages, specifically Deuteronomy 30:4. These references clearly support the notion that this angelic gathering, which was predicted in the Older Testament, references a regathering of saved Jews who need to be returned to the land of Israel in which they will live for a thousand years during Christ' s Kingdom. Instead, of using El Al airlines, the Lord will use angelic carriers to transport His people back to their land. What is the support for this view? Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum tells us the following about the use of Old Testament citations in Matthew 24:31:


The Matthew passage is a rather simple summary of all that the prophets had to say about the second facet of Israel' s final restoration. Its purpose was to make clear that the world-wide regathering predicted by the prophets will be fulfilled only after the second coming.[15]


Dr. Renald Showers has done an excellent job collecting evidence and arguing for this view.[16] After noting that " from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other" means that " the elect will be gathered from all over the world at Christ' s coming," [17] Dr. Showers provides three lines of proof for his view as follows:


First, because of Israel' s persistent rebellion against God, He declared that He would scatter the Jews " into all the winds" (Ezek. 5:10, 12) or " toward all winds" (Ezek. 17:21). In Zechariah 2:6 God stated that He did scatter them abroad " as four winds of the heavens." . . . God did scatter the Jews all over the world.

Next, God also declared that in the future Israel would be gathered from the east, west, north, and south, " from the ends of the earth" (Isa. 43:5-7). We should note that in the context of this promise, God called Israel His " chosen" (vv. 10, 20).

. . . Just as Jesus indicated that the gathering of His elect from the four directions of the world will take place in conjunction with " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Greek text of Mt. 24:21), so Isaiah 27:13 teaches that the scattered children of Israel will be gathered to their homeland in conjunction with the blowing of " a great trumpet" (literal translation of the Hebrew). . . .

Gerhard Friedrich wrote that in that future eschatological day " a great horn shall be blown (Is. 27:13)" and the exiled will be brought back by that signal. Again he asserted that in conjunction with the blowing of the great trumpet of Isaiah 27:13, " There follows the gathering of Israel and the return of the dispersed to Zion."

It is significant to note that Isaiah 27:13, which foretells this future regathering of Israel, is the only specific reference in the Old Testament to a " great" trumpet.

Although Isaiah 11:11-12 does not refer to a great trumpet, it is parallel to Isaiah 27:13 because it refers to the same regathering of Israel. In its context, this passage indicates that when the Messiah (a root of Jesse, vv. 1, 10) comes to rule and transform the world as an " ensign" (a banner), He will gather together the scattered remnant of His people Israel " from the four corners of the earth." [18]


What Jesus describes in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is the Jewish ingathering that will fulfill the prophetic aspects of the Feast of Trumpets for the nation of Israel. In fact, a prayer for this regathering of the children of Israel appears to this day in the Jewish Daily Prayer Book.[19]


Conclusion
It is quite clear that since the church is not mentioned in Matthew 24, then verse 31 cannot be a reference to the rapture of the church. Instead, as one studies the context and Old Testament references that our Lord alludes to, it becomes quite clear that He speaks of an end time regathering of elect Israel in order to return them to the land for the Millennium. At Christ' s first coming he wept over Jerusalem and expressed His desire to gather Israel to Himself " the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling" (Matt. 23:37). At His second coming, elect Israel will look upon Him whom they have pierced (Zech. 12:10) and say, " Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!" (Ps. 118:26; Matt. 23:39). Maranatha!

several problems with that. the audience of matthew 24 was the church and the lord was talking about ad 70 in some events. though i do believe that a scattering will occur again as the state isreal must also be saved from her enemies

herein lies a problem for you if the jews arent all there in the nation of isreal, then is it possible that you and i might not see the rapture?

me think so.we may be dead. when the ac turns on isreal and commits the abomonation of desolation they flee jersusalem. meaning that they likely are hunted down and kiled by the ac and other men under his control.

that must happen and also for a nation to return the capital must be in total control of the state.jews dont control all of jersusalem. so if the ac gives them jerusalem they have to get the temple built first.

that hasnt happened yet as the jews know the cost of such an endeavor. so either the ac convinces the muslims to ceded isreal their part of jerusalem or they take it by force.

 

[pretrib]

that doesnt support the idea of a pre trib rapture.

how then do the martyred trib saints make it to heaven and they cant be excluded from the rapture as well they are resurected if you expect consistency?

I do not believe that you understood what I am saying here.

You see,..there is not a rapture at all when the Lord comes to fight at Armageddon.

If there were a rapture at that time,..there would not be any believer on the earth to repopulate the earth,..because we know that all believers receive immortal bodies in the rapture.....so if all the dead and alive are changed,..there would not be anyone to populate the earth.

Allow me to change this up somewhat,..so that you will take notice of something.

He Who Has An Ear, Let Him Hear
What is the difference between these verses:

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™â€

And this verse:

Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.

Jason,..the reason why revelation 13;9 has omitted..." let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."...is because the Holy Spirit that indwells each believer has been taken out of the way in the pre-trib rapture.

All these peace negotiations that you today on how the world is trying to force a Palestinian state against Israel's will....Is not going to happen!!!

All hell is about to break loose in the middle east.
This september,..if the world through the United Nations goes over Israels head and recognize a Palestian state,,...I assure you that Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 will come to pass any day..there are no if's..ands" and Buts' about this...it will happen before your very eyes.
The catch is....The general time era of the rapture is sometime before(NOW) this war comes to pass,..and sometime shortly after it comes to pass.
You see Jason,......once Israel believes that she is living in peace,..Ezeliel 38 will come to pass,..and it is this battle that activates God's Wrath..it is this battle that activates,..The Day of the Lord.
We all know that the rapture will happen before the Day of the Lord.

Now the reason why I say that the rapture could happen before this coming Isaiah 17;1/Psalms prophecy,..is because God would not destroy Sodom until Lot and His family were taken out of harms way......It's just that I believe that there are christians that are living in Damascus, Syria....it is just something that I am aware of...that's all I'm saying.

 

[jasoncran]

I do not believe that you understood what I am saying here.

You see,..there is not a rapture at all when the Lord comes to fight at Armageddon.

If there were a rapture at that time,..there would not be any believer on the earth to repopulate the earth,..because we know that all believers receive immortal bodies in the rapture.....so if all the dead and alive are changed,..there would not be anyone to populate the earth.

Allow me to change this up somewhat,..so that you will take notice of something.

He Who Has An Ear, Let Him Hear
What is the difference between these verses:

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches...

Revelation 2:29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™

Revelation 3:22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.â€â€™â€

And this verse:

Revelation 13:9 He who has an ear, let him hear.

Jason,..the reason why revelation 13;9 has omitted..." let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."...is because the Holy Spirit that indwells each believer has been taken out of the way in the pre-trib rapture.

All these peace negotiations that you today on how the world is trying to force a Palestinian state against Israel's will....Is not going to happen!!!

All hell is about to break loose in the middle east.
This september,..if the world through the United Nations goes over Israels head and recognize a Palestian state,,...I assure you that Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 will come to pass any day..there are no if's..ands" and Buts' about this...it will happen before your very eyes.
The catch is....The general time era of the rapture is sometime before(NOW) this war comes to pass,..and sometime shortly after it comes to pass.
You see Jason,......once Israel believes that she is living in peace,..Ezeliel 38 will come to pass,..and it is this battle that activates God's Wrath..it is this battle that activates,..The Day of the Lord.
We all know that the rapture will happen before the Day of the Lord.

Now the reason why I say that the rapture could happen before this coming Isaiah 17;1/Psalms prophecy,..is because God would not destroy Sodom until Lot and His family were taken out of harms way......It's just that I believe that there are christians that are living in Damascus, Syria....it is just something that I am aware of...that's all I'm saying.

revalation 13:9?

so theres no holy spirit on the earth at this time.man even for a pre-tribbers thats is somethign i dont hear.

so how is the trib saint going to understand the bible?

he faces death and what his own flesh will enable him to stay strong?

that clearly violates what jesus said when he said this

think not what to say for in the hour i will give the words to speak.

and romans 8 when paul states nothning can seperate us from the love of God

you sir preach two gospels.that trib saint wont last at all.

the same jesus said he would never forsake you nor leave you and yet when you said this he is essential on his own.

how is the saint going to understand the bible? how will he be taught?its hard to believe and act saintly in trouble times without the holy spirit.

that isnt in the bible,conditional for saints then and unconditional in the trib.

meaning thats god says too bad you were born in the trib or didnt repent when i warned yah and now you are on your own. is that the God we know?