ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[jasoncran]

LOL...If it were not the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit,...Hitler would have succeeded in killing every jew on the face of the earth as so that the Lord could not return when He heard the Jewish race say..."Blessed is He that comes in the name of the lord."

As concerning the falling away,..these are those who0 were going to church but were never saved...basicly were playing church and were fence sitters.
That is occurring today,..the opposite occurs once the pre-trib rapture comes to pass.revelation 7;
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb

you claimed this the church dominates the world via a ton of little billy grahams

The Brides faith, which today seems to be smaller than a mustard seed,...would be transformed overnite into a faith larger than a mountain!
You would have millions of super Billy Grahams running loose on the earth!
Well,....Today,the anti-christ or the false prophet cannot perform one miracle,or take center stage, until the Bride has been caught up out of this world!!!

really so the church in the eighties were all false? all of them? every one in america? that i find hard to believe.uh the scopes trial happened before the formation of isreal as a state!

think about if the chruch is removed then the holy spirt does that restraining. and stalin killed more jews then hitler.he got away with it.

more jews lived in the ussr and her satelite states then in that part of europe.
its funny you claimed that the sinner in the trib who get saved will have the sealing of the hs yet he is tested for his faith.

meaning that his salvation is conditional. that presents a problem for you.surely you realise miracles dont keep you in christ. if so explain how come the disciples were so wish washy and later after the hs the churches had issues?

 

[Stormcrow]

After reading the words of Christ on the subject, yet again, I am convinced that futurism and dispensationalsim are the heresies, because they reject Christ's clear and unequivocal statements on these issues.

Both represent a whole other gospel.

 

[pretrib]

The A/D was not a man, it was Rome's legions:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB)
​

He didn't say His coming would be visible to the whole earth. He said it would be visible to those in “the land†of Judea, including Jerusalem:

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)
​

Who are the “tribes of the land?â€

{10} "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10 (NASB)
​

Except, of course, for the one to whom Jesus was sent and was addressing? The one that crucified Him?

{31} "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. {32} "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. {33} "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? {34} "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, {35} so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. {36} "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Matthew 23:31-36 (NASB)
​

{34} "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Matthew 24:34 (NASB)
​

{29} As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah. Luke 11:29 (NASB)

{24} When Pilate saw that he was accomplishing nothing, but rather that a riot was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this Man's blood; see to that yourselves." {25} And all the people said, "His blood shall be on us and on our children!" Matthew 27:24-25 (NASB)

​

I'm wondering...what part of "you" and "this generation" isn't clicking for you?

Post is long...more is coming.

You Quote:
The A/D was not a man, it was Rome's legions:

{20} "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Luke 21:20 (NASB
​

My Reply:
LOL...wrong from the get go.
The A.O.D. is an event whereby the antichrist sits in the temple of God and proclaims himself as god.

Therefore when you (especially to Jews living in Jerusalem) see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION (abomination = bdelugma = an object of disgust, repulsion, abhorrence used primarily to denote things associated with idolatry and gross ungodliness) which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet (This is strong support for the fact that Jesus accepted Daniel as a true prophet), standing in the holy place (The Jewish Temple = which is the meaning of "this holy place" in Acts 21:28, the only other NT use of hagios in a similar context) (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! 20 But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 forthen (explanation and time phrase marking sequence) there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. (Matthew 24:15-21)
Jesus' words abomination of desolation may also be translated, “the abomination which makes desolate, or lays waste†indicating the abomination causes the desolation. As noted Daniel referred to the abomination of desolation three times, two describing the Antichrist (Daniel 9:27; 12:11) and one (Da 11:31) referring to Antiochus Epiphanes (cf 1Macc 1:54, 6:7 - See Antiochus-Da 8:9-note, Da 8:17-note, Da 8:19-note; Da notes; Da notes 2).
KJV Bible Commentary: The abomination of desolation refers to Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11; (Da 11:31 refers to)...Antiochus Epiphanes’ profanation of the Jewish temple worship (which) would foreshadow a similar and more severe act by the eschatological Antichrist. Whereas Antiochus offered a pig on the sacred altar of the Temple, the Antichrist will offer himself (2Th 2:3, 4)!...This cancels limitation of Daniel’s prophecy to just the days of Antiochus (Allen, p. 256) since Jesus, in His day, was still awaiting further fulfillment, and it likewise goes beyond the catastrophe of a.d. 70 (Stagg, p. 200), since it is called the greatest tribulation of all time (Mt 24:21).

 

[Stormcrow]

{30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the land lament, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30 (Darby)

See that phrase, "sign of the Son of man in heaven?" Want to know what that sign was???

{55} But being full of the Holy Spirit, he [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)

This sign will eventually appear to all who face death. For those who believe in Him, it will be a sign of great comfort, but for those who reject Him, it will be a sign of terrible dread.

This is the sign - I believe - every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem saw in 70 AD, as the Romans bore down on them with drawn swords and lit torches.

Mystery solved.

 

[Stormcrow]

LOL...wrong from the get go.
The A.O.D. is an event whereby the antichrist sits in the temple of God and proclaims himself as god.

You provided a commentary. I gave you the words of Christ Himself. I'll go with those if that's OK with you. 2

 

[pretrib]

you claimed this the church dominates the world via a ton of little billy grahams



really so the church in the eighties were all false? all of them? every one in america? that i find hard to believe.uh the scopes trial happened before the formation of isreal as a state!

think about if the chruch is removed then the holy spirt does that restraining. and stalin killed more jews then hitler.he got away with it.

more jews lived in the ussr and her satelite states then in that part of europe.
its funny you claimed that the sinner in the trib who get saved will have the sealing of the hs yet he is tested for his faith.

meaning that his salvation is conditional. that presents a problem for you.surely you realise miracles dont keep you in christ. if so explain how come the disciples were so wish washy and later after the hs the churches had issues?

Jason,..it seems that your ability to grasp what is posted is not up to parr.

You Quote:
you claimed this the church dominates the world via a ton of little billy grahams



really so the church in the eighties were all false? all of them? every one in america? that i find hard to believe.uh the scopes trial happened before the formation of isreal as a state!


My Reply:
Allow me to explain it this way,..some erroneously claim that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week.
The very first thing hat marks day one of Daniels 70th week is the confirming of a covenant with the Israel and the many by the antichrist....the Bride today is very aware of this prophecy.

I guess what it boils down too is that you do not really know who you are in Christ Jesus,..obviously you do not seem to realize that the one living inside of you is much more greater than the one who is in the world.

satan nor his lil demons are no match for the bride today,....at least to those who realize what the Armor of God really entails.
The lil ol demons today tremble at the name of Jesus.
Satan and his lil cohorts ain't about nothing....what? are you sceered..LOL

Today the church is in the lacidonia age,..in other words it is luke warm.......but I tell you the truth,..if the Bride were still on this earth and had just witnessed a 7 year covenant confirm between Israel and the antichrist,..all these lukewarm christians would become like an army of billy grahams.
They would be like Paul and Stephen,..bold in their walk,..you should try it,..because if you do,..signs will follow you.....I know this as a fact.

My point is that the bride will not be on this earth to endure Gods wrath when it begins in Ezekiel 38;18-20

 

[pretrib]

See that phrase, "sign of the Son of man in heaven?" Want to know what that sign was???

{55} But being full of the Holy Spirit, he [Stephen] gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; {56} and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Acts 7:55-56 (NASB)

This sign will eventually appear to all who face death. For those who believe in Him, it will be a sign of great comfort, but for those who reject Him, it will be a sign of terrible dread.

This is the sign - I believe - every man, woman, and child in Jerusalem saw in 70 AD, as the Romans bore down on them with drawn swords and lit torches.

Mystery solved.

It seems that your ability to perceive is limited in scope pertaininjg to prophecy.

You Quote:
sign of the Son of man in heaven?" Want to know what that sign was???


My Reply:
Matthew 24:30
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Then in Matt 24:29 He says that immediately after the tribulation ends, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. It's now 3 ½ years later. The Great Tribulation has ended.

Matt 24:30 has people on Earth seeing the Sign of the Son of Man in the sky, His visible return to Earth with power and great glory, and all the peoples of the Earth mourning. It's now too late for them to be saved and they intuitively realize it. This is the Second Coming. (Contrast the use of the second person "you" and your" in verses 20, 23, 25 and 26 with the third person "they" in verse 30. Jews who heed this warning and flee are distinguished from the nations (Gentiles) who mourn at His return.)

It's so funny that you made that claim of yours,.because,..Armageddon is still future,..thr resurrection of thye martyreds is still future.

the millennial reign of Jesus has not yet begun.
There was no sheep and goat judgement,..

The Lord has not yet built the Millennial temple Himself,..nor has animal sacrifices begun yet in the millennial

satan is still on the loose,..
I do not recall a earthquake so tremdous that the mountains could not be found.

I could go on and on,..you teach a false doctrine that does not line up with the Word of God.

 

[pretrib]

You provided a commentary. I gave you the words of Christ Himself. I'll go with those if that's OK with you. 2

So when did the two witnesses get slain and the world giving gifts to each other and the world freaking out that they stood on their feet and ascended into heaven in the sight of men?LOL

 

[Hitch]

LOL...I do not have a problem with this...The last day....So what is your point?

Well Im not at all surprised to see you have no concern over what Jesus had to say. Still it leads to problems when ever we disregard the Word of God, in this case in letter and person. Jesus says the resurrection is at the last day , you dont. Of course most of your scheme begins with the resurrection as resurrection must precede rapture, and continues ,contrary to what Jesus said, for over a thousand years.

Further Jesus says all who are in the graves good and evil , will hear and rise, you say a few here and there with thousands of years between. You also must leave the righteous dead of the Thousands Years to raised with the ungodly, again contrary to what Jesus said.

But thanx for demonstrating typical pre-millennial disregard for Jesus Christ.

 

[Hitch]

So when did the two witnesses get slain and the world giving gifts to each other and the world freaking out that they stood on their feet and ascended into heaven in the sight of men?LOL

Are you sure you dont mean the two trees? Trees are great evangelists ya know, literally.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason,..it seems that your ability to grasp what is posted is not up to parr.

You Quote:
you claimed this the church dominates the world via a ton of little billy grahams



really so the church in the eighties were all false? all of them? every one in america? that i find hard to believe.uh the scopes trial happened before the formation of isreal as a state!


My Reply:
Allow me to explain it this way,..some erroneously claim that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week.
The very first thing hat marks day one of Daniels 70th week is the confirming of a covenant with the Israel and the many by the antichrist....the Bride today is very aware of this prophecy.

I guess what it boils down too is that you do not really know who you are in Christ Jesus,..obviously you do not seem to realize that the one living inside of you is much more greater than the one who is in the world.

satan nor his lil demons are no match for the bride today,....at least to those who realize what the Armor of God really entails.
The lil ol demons today tremble at the name of Jesus.
Satan and his lil cohorts ain't about nothing....what? are you sceered..LOL

Today the church is in the lacidonia age,..in other words it is luke warm.......but I tell you the truth,..if the Bride were still on this earth and had just witnessed a 7 year covenant confirm between Israel and the antichrist,..all these lukewarm christians would become like an army of billy grahams.
They would be like Paul and Stephen,..bold in their walk,..you should try it,..because if you do,..signs will follow you.....I know this as a fact.

My point is that the bride will not be on this earth to endure Gods wrath when it begins in Ezekiel 38;18-20

no i do know. and i believe. the problem is that same church would be needed to win souls while the enemy slays them

i have been healed of bisexuality,pornography. self-loathing.

your are stating the church of today is in state of loadicians? really visit china then report or ask the coptics or the arab christian and they will be insulted.

i am not in anyway stating the church is weak, i mainly wanted to point out that god lets these things come to pass. i know better. that is why i stated this is in ebb not the final falling away. while i cant be sure but in the past there has been far worse offenses by christians.

s.korea where christianity is stronger there then in america has sent more missionaries out now then america has.

so is that from a weak chruch? or what about the chinese who die for the lord.

it makes no sense to remove a church when the blood of saints is what makes the church grow.

 

[pretrib]

Are you sure you dont mean the two trees? Trees are great evangelists ya know, literally.

Expositors in this category agree that the witnesses are two individuals, but they disagree on who these people are, as exemplified by the following ten interpretations: (1) Elijah and Moses, (2) Elijah and Enoch, (3) Elijah and John the Baptist, (4) Elijah and John the Apostle, (5) Elijah and an unidentified person, (6) Peter and James, (7) Peter and John, (8) Peter and Paul, (9) the two high priests, Ananus and Jesus, who nobly withstood the zealots in Jerusalem, and were massacred by them, and (10) two unknown persons who will minister in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah in the future.â€6 “These witnesses are individuals. No reader of the account, having no preconceived theory to defend, would ever think of taking them for bodies, or successions of people. All the early fathers, from whom we have any testimony on the subject, regarded them as two individual men.â€

Have you ever heard of the world giving gifts to each other because of the two tree's that called fire out of their mouth and caused it not to rain and and could not be killed for 1,260 days...that people would celebtrate their death and 3 1/2 days later rise on their feet and a voice from heaven says ..come up hither...maybe the tree's ascended up into that great orchard in the sky......LOL..that's a big imagination.

 

[Hitch]

Expositors in this category agree that the witnesses are two individuals, but they disagree on who these people are, as exemplified by the following ten interpretations: (1) Elijah and Moses, (2) Elijah and Enoch, (3) Elijah and John the Baptist, (4) Elijah and John the Apostle, (5) Elijah and an unidentified person, (6) Peter and James, (7) Peter and John, (8) Peter and Paul, (9) the two high priests, Ananus and Jesus, who nobly withstood the zealots in Jerusalem, and were massacred by them, and (10) two unknown persons who will minister in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah in the future.”6 “These witnesses are individuals. No reader of the account, having no preconceived theory to defend, would ever think of taking them for bodies, or successions of people. All the early fathers, from whom we have any testimony on the subject, regarded them as two individual men.”

Have you ever heard of the world giving gifts to each other because of the two tree's that called fire out of their mouth

Sure its the trees that grow in the 1200 mile high city LOL

and caused it not to rain and and could not be killed for 1,260 days...that people would celebtrate their death and 3 1/2 days later rise on their feet and a voice from heaven says ..come up hither...maybe the tree's ascended up into that great orchard in the sky......LOL..that's a big imagination.

So you're another pretend literalist,,, Im so surprised

 

[pretrib]

no i do know. and i believe. the problem is that same church would be needed to win souls while the enemy slays them

i have been healed of bisexuality,pornography. self-loathing.

your are stating the church of today is in state of loadicians? really visit china then report or ask the coptics or the arab christian and they will be insulted.

i am not in anyway stating the church is weak, i mainly wanted to point out that god lets these things come to pass. i know better. that is why i stated this is in ebb not the final falling away. while i cant be sure but in the past there has been far worse offenses by christians.

s.korea where christianity is stronger there then in america has sent more missionaries out now then america has.

so is that from a weak chruch? or what about the chinese who die for the lord.

it makes no sense to remove a church when the blood of saints is what makes the church grow.

Sigh.....Jason it's the sign of the times,..things are getting much worse,..and yes,..people are definately falling away...(I'm referring to the fence sitters)...unfortunately,..I have a daughter who had recently laughed and denied the resurrection of our risen Lord,...She grew up hearing about Jesus,..but her answer today was...Daddy, I'm not a little girl no more...she has fallin away and never was ever saved.

You Quote:
your are stating the church of today is in state of loadicians? really visit china then report or ask the coptics or the arab christian and they will be insulted

My Reply:
Do you have a source ,..that would be interesting to read about.

 

[jasoncran]

My Reply:
Do you have a source ,..that would be interesting to read about.[/QUOTE]



Missions Incredible | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction


Christianity Today, March 2006

Missions Incredible

South Korea sends more missionaries than any country but the U.S. And it won't be long before it's number one.

by Rob Moll | posted 02/24/2006 09:30 a.m


Samuel Kang was God's improbable choice to be a leader in the world's fastest-growing missionary movement. Kang was born in Japan when the Japanese empire was forcing alien Shinto beliefs down Korean throats.

At the end of World War II, the Kang family returned to Korea and grew deeply fervent in their Christian faith. The Kangs dedicated Samuel to God, and they told him, "You will become a pastor."

Kang rebelled. "I did not want to accept my parents' dedication of me to God without my consent," he says. For years, he resisted God's call. But by the time he was 20, Samuel's heart softened, and he felt compelled to give himself to God. "No one can escape from his sovereign call," Kang says.

It took another 20 years of discipling and discernment before Kang set foot on a mission field. At age 39, Kang and his wife, Sarah (who had discovered her own call to missions work), left South Korea for Nigeria. When they departed in 1980, there were only 93 Korean missionaries worldwide.

During the next 11 years, Samuel and Sarah Kang raised a family, planted Nigerian churches, and started a Bible college for Nigerian pastors. Kang's eyes sparkle as he recalls his days in Africa. "The Lord gave me this wonderful opportunity to serve him," he says. "If God gives me another life, may I give it to him as a missionary."

Kang doesn't look backward very often. Now 64 years old, with silvery hair and a gentle smile, he is leading an ambitious 25-year plan to help South Korea send out more missionaries than any other country.

Kang is chief executive director of the Korean World Mission Association and dean of the Graduate School of World Mission at Seoul's influential Chongshin University. He has helped move South Korean missions into a place never before imagined: South Korea today sends out more missionaries than any other country except the United States. In terms of missionaries per congregation, Korea sends one missionary for every 4.2 congregations, which places it 11th in the world. (The U.S. does not rank in the top 10.)


Majority-World Missions

But more than that, mission scholars agree that Koreans are a potent vanguard for an emerging missionary movement that is about to eclipse centuries of Western-dominated Protestant missions. They call it the "majority-world" mission movement. They say this new term—"majority world"—is necessary to replace the aging terms "third world" and "developing world." The radical change in Protestant missions is forcing scholars and missionaries to create new ways of talking about the global scene.

The global majority (5.2 billion people) live in less developed nations. Of the world's 6.4 billion people, less than 18 percent live in developed nations. Scholars say the church's future in large measure rests in the hands of the global majority.

"The day of Western missionary dominance is over, not because Western missionaries have died off," says Scott Moreau, chair of intercultural studies at Wheaton College (Illinois), "but because the rest of the world has caught the vision and is engaged and energized."

Moreau says Americans must come to realize that "missions is a two-way street on every continent." Today's missionary is as likely to be a black African in Europe as a northern Indian in south India or a Korean in China. In addition, mission leaders are placing a new focus on Asia, where 60 percent of the global population lives. Samuel Hugh Moffett, the elder American statesman of Asian Christianity, told Christianity Today that Asia represents "the future for missions." Born in Korea to missionary parents and now professor emeritus at Princeton Theological Seminary, Moffett has spent his professional life studying Christianity in Asia. Between 1998 and 2005, he produced the two-volume History of Christianity in Asia, the recipient of many scholarly accolades.

Moffett paints no pretty picture of the challenges facing the majority-world mission movement in Asia. "We're starting from way back," he says. After 2,000 years of mission work, the population of Asia is no more than 8 percent Christian. "We're not doing very well. Asia is more religious than any of the other continents," he says, yet Asians perceive Christianity as an "alien" religion, even though "Jesus was born in Asia." This perception can give Koreans a unique advantage in bringing the gospel from one Asian country to another.

Another advantage is the evangelistic zeal typical of the majority-world church, a zeal that has been fundamental to majority-world missionary growth. In 1973, CT reported there were at least 3,411 non-Western, crosscultural missionaries in the world. That number has now exploded to 103,000, according to reliable estimates, though figures are difficult to determine in the majority world.

That total nearly equals the number of U.S. and Canadian Protestant mission personnel, which stands at about 112,000.

As the Western mission movement matures and slows down, majority-world missions are expanding. South Korea sends more than 1,100 new missionaries annually. That means Korea alone sends out as many new missionaries each year as all of the countries of the West combined.

This rocketing rate of growth is historic. When Kang returned to his home in 1991, South Korea had sent more than 1,200 missionaries, up from 80 just 11 years before. Today, almost 13,000 South Koreans are serving as longterm missionaries in countries around the world.

"For many years," Kang says, "God said at night, 'You are like Jonah. You are like Jonah.' " Eventually, Kang relented, and he told his wife about God's call to evangelize Muslims in Africa. But Sarah worried about safety, education, and her own lack of a divine call.

Kang remained patient. Ten years after his initial conversation with his wife, he gave Sarah a biography of a missionary to Muslims. After reading the book, Sarah asked him to pray for her as she went to church every evening.

For nine weeks, Sarah sought God's direction in all-night prayer vigils. At dawn one day, Kang saw his wife coming home with tears streaming down her face. "God finally called me as a missionary," she exclaimed. "I do not follow you. I go with you."

 

[jasoncran]

Outreach in the Red Zone

On May 30, 2004, terrorists in Iraq linked to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi kidnapped Kim Sun Il, a Korean interpreter. The South Korean native had been working for a year with a South Korean firm that supplied goods to the U.S. Army, an opportunity Kim used as a means of gaining entrance into the country.

Like many Korean missionaries, he was highly educated, holding undergraduate and graduate degrees in English, theology, and Arabic. He was also willing to undertake the dangerous task of working in a war zone.

Kim had a passion for mission work among unreached peoples. Mission experts estimate that 1.8 billion individuals in thousands of ethnic groups remain unexposed to the gospel. South Korean missionaries, in particular, are pioneering projects and methods to spread the gospel in these areas. Korea sends 34 percent of its missionaries to unreached peoples; the international average is around 10 percent.

During Kim's captivity, Zarqawi threatened to kill him unless South Korea scrapped its plan to send 3,000 troops to join the U.S.-led coalition that had toppled Saddam Hussein in 2003. The kidnapping took the South Korean government by surprise, and it frantically tried to rescue the captured translator. It also took Westerners by surprise, as the little-known Korean missionary movement was given a face on television screens around the world. Terrorists released video footage of Kim pleading for his life. On June 22, his beheaded body was recovered outside of Baghdad.

Christians in South Korea see their missionaries as uniquely positioned to bridge the divide between the wealthy West and majority-world nations. In 1973, during the landmark Seoul Crusade, Billy Graham predicted that South Korea would be the launching pad for missions to Asia. (See "Prophecy and Politics.") South Koreans are doing just that, and Kim's ultimate sacrifice in Iraq is one heroic example of their passion.

According to Henry Lee, a mission leader based in Seoul, this kind of drive is a trait shared by many Koreans, sending them to dangerous regions.

For seven years, Lee worked with Muslims in another red zone, violence-torn Chechnya and Dagestan, located between the Caspian Sea and the Black Sea and governed by Russia. He worked to plant churches and raise national church leaders. After being expelled from Russia in 2003, Lee worked as a mission pastor in Southern California. He now trains Korean missionaries for Frontiers, which works in Muslim countries.

Lee teaches his students how to enter and gain trust in a Muslim community. All Asians have a mistrust of outsiders, Lee says. "If I don't know you, I can't trust you." For missionaries in the Muslim world, it is even more true. "Unless you break into that community, you cannot get them for the kingdom of God," Lee says.

Lee also says it's nearly impossible to pull a Muslim out of his or her community. "We do not do extraction evangelism," he says. "We don't want to take them out of their community to build a new fellowship. I want to see God's fellowship built in that Muslim community, and then that community will last and reproduce."

Due to the efforts of Lee and others, the church is growing in Chechnya. One larger congregation is made up of more than 70 percent Muslim-background believers. The situation is similar in other pockets of Asia where Korean missionaries are working. According to the Korea Research Institute for Missions' (KRIM) biennial report, 47 percent of Korean missionaries are working throughout Asia, and roughly one quarter work in Muslim countries.

After ministering in Dagestan, Lee moved further north into Russia for safety reasons. Eventually, Lee was forced to leave the country entirely, but not before he had spent four years training 12 church leaders and pastors. By entering the region from southern Russia for two weeks at a time every two months, Lee was able to train national church leaders in Chechnya, teaching them Old and New Testament theology and other seminary-level courses. Lee remembers, "One leader said to me, 'Even though you didn't plant the church, you laid a foundation.' "

Lee turns somber when he recalls the 12 believers he discipled in Chechnya and Dagestan. "Even though I can't continue to teach them, my disciples are teaching the next generation of church leaders in the North Caucasus. They will remember me, and I will remember them."

One powerful memory sticks in Lee's mind. It was a hot week on the Black Sea, and the facilities were run down. The Chechen leaders were holding their first retreat. Every evening after prayer, they sang traditional Chechen songs and danced traditional Chechen dances. But they were singing and dancing to God the Father, who sent his son Jesus Christ.

"We came to have a sense of unity that we are in the same kingdom," Lee says. "That was a really special moment of Chechen Christianity."


Lone-Ranger Complex

Steve Moon, director of the Korea Research Institute for Missions, says Korean missionaries love the romance and adventure of pioneering mission work. Their role model is Horace G. Underwood, the first Presbyterian missionary to Korea.

"When Korean missionaries go out to the field, they want to be the first missionary, especially as a Korean," says Moon. "We are strong in starting new projects."

But that entrepreneurial spirit has its downsides. "We have many lone rangers," Moon says. "Many Korean missionaries are on their own. They will start their own ministry instead of joining a team."

Koreans often lack crosscultural competency as well, Moon says. Americans not only have missionary experience, but they also have crosscultural opportunities in their own country. Koreans come from a monocultural, monolingual country.

This tension is not unusual in the history of missions. "Wherever there is a renewal or revival anywhere in the world, it results in missions," says C. Douglas McConnell, dean of Fuller Seminary's School of Intercultural Studies. Each emerging church has tried to export its characteristics to other places, says McConnell, who recently co-authored The Changing Face of World Missions.

South Korea's rapid church growth in the '70s and '80s led to a remarkable missionary consciousness, but it will take some maturing before it becomes as effective as it could be. Learning cultural sensitivity takes time, McConnell says. "To be very honest with you, I have myself. The process of helping local Christians to understand the faith in their own categories is relatively sophisticated. It takes a couple of generations of missionaries."

It took Americans and the British two or three generations to learn to contextualize the gospel, he says, and it's amazing that Koreans are catching on so quickly.

Korean congregations often send missionaries directly, without an outside or denominational agency. While this process makes local churches more mission conscious and helps them identify better with the outreach, it also creates problems. Mission scholars say some churches tend to view missionary church plants as extensions of the home church. In some congregations, serving on the mission field has even become a step on the ladder of pastoral promotions.

Korean competitiveness also has a double edge. Koreans' aspiration to outdo America may result in huge numbers of Korean missionaries, but as one missionary to Japan told CT, competitiveness among missionaries there has made it harder to raise up national church leaders in an already difficult environment. Missionaries, he says, focus on their church rather than working together with other missionaries to build seminaries and schools that can help the church at large.

In addition, Timothy Park, a professor at Fuller and director of its Korean-studies program, says recent Korean missionaries have not always followed the indigenous church principle that made the first missionaries to Korea so successful. In communist countries, for example, many indigenous churches were thriving, says Park, who was a missionary to the Philippines. But as soon as these countries opened up to foreign missionaries, the churches became weak and dependent.

"They enjoy financial support and lose the sense of depending on God and doing their best to help their churches grow. They depend on [Korean missionaries] for support, and they are eventually controlled by the missionaries."

Even though Park helped to create a Philippine church association, the church is not growing. "In terms of the number of congregations, it increases, but not in terms of membership," he says. Sheep stealing is a major problem. Missionaries start new churches by using Korean mission funds to lure members from other congregations. This way the missionaries can report successful church plants to their home churches. "Nationals compare missions' supporting policies, and they try to belong to the one that's the most generous."

"The foreigners create great problems," Park says. "A former general secretary of the Christian Church of the Philippines told me they are agonizing over the situation. He said unless foreign missionaries leave the Philippines, he doesn't think the church will grow."

But Korean mission leaders recognize these problems and are working to address them. To begin with, they are encouraging churches to send missionaries through agencies, which ensures quality training and also eliminates undue influence from the sending churches.

 

[jasoncran]

B]Western Model Less Useful

Majority-world missionaries say one cultural advantage works strongly in their favor. A former mission director put it this way: "There is a team working in northern India. There are a couple Koreans, a Japanese, an Ethiopian, a couple Americans, and a couple Australians. [Thus] it is very difficult for Muslims in northern India to say that Christianity is a Western religion."

In addition, majority-world missionaries know that the Western model of missions has cultural elements that are not well suited to their work in the field. Western-style missions are dramatically more expensive to maintain and require a large, complex organization to raise and disburse funds worldwide.

The majority-world model is more like a network. Due to financial constraints, it has to be more flexible and collaborative. Because majority-world missionaries are often culturally closer to those they serve on the mission field, they are also more attuned to local cultural situations.

These differences are subtle, but significant. One Korean missionary to Afghanistan complained that his Western coworkers were too analytic and too policy-driven.

Sung-Chan Kwon is now executive director of Global Bible Translators, but for six years he worked as a Western agency-sponsored missionary in Afghanistan. He says he could not accomplish his mission while following the overly rigid regulations and policies his agency specified.

Kwon says he was required to ask local Afghans first to itemize their needs before he started a project. But Kwon believed building relationships should take priority over determining the best project. "The West wants to control people with regulations. The heart is more important," he says. It's better to teach someone what it means to be a missionary, Kwon says, than simply to teach them what to do.

Some Koreans are starting to host forums to discuss what Korean missions should look like in the future. "In terms of theology and missiology, in terms of methods, we may not be unique," says David Lee, director of Global Missionary Training Center, which trains about 7 percent of Korean missionaries. "But it's uniquely Koreans doing this with Korean structure, with Korean church support, with Korean zeal and Korean spirituality, which is willing to suffer and willing to shout to God with perseverance."

However, others believe missions are missions. "There is no such thing as Korean missions," says one well-respected Korean pastor.

Steve Moon writes in his 2002 report that while Korea will continue to work with Western mission agencies in the beginning of the 21st century, it may be time for Korea to look back East and learn how to help other majority-world countries develop their mission movements. "China and India will play crucial roles in evangelizing the existing unreached world. … Korean missions are expected to develop both the philosophy and the skills to smooth partnerships both with international mission agencies with a Western background and with indigenous mission agencies with a two-thirds-world background."

Many Korean missionaries work in China, where they help train house-church leaders. David Lee, who has also served as chair of the World Evangelical Alliance mission commission, sees a big role for Korean missionaries in getting Chinese missionaries involved in Korea's Back to Jerusalem project, which aims to send 100,000 missionaries to the Middle East. "If we can somehow assist them in terms of a more modern way of thinking and coping and understanding context and crosscultural communication," he says, "I think they would have a greater survival rate."


Next Pentecost

As experienced missionaries return from the field, the Korean missions movement matures.

Instead of retiring in 1991, Kang started a new career. He launched a mission agency and became an academic dean at Chongshin University and director of the Korea World Mission Association (KWMA).

Kang and the association plan to send 100,000 full-time Korean missionaries by 2030. They hope to mobilize 50 percent of Korean churches to be involved in missions, recruit 1 of every 300 Korean Christians to become missionaries, adopt 200 unreached people groups every five years, and send 1 million tentmakers into difficult-access countries by 2020.

It's an ambitious plan, and not everyone believes it is practical. Steve Moon says the project is "unrealistic." The mission infrastructure is already overwhelmed, he says. Currently the infrastructure in Korea can only support about 5,000 missionaries. The only way to send 100,000 missionaries would be to include tentmakers in the definition of a missionary. One pastor on the board of KWMA says that although he didn't vote against the project, it is too ambitious. Koreans' ambition can be a problem, he says, and this is a good example.

But others defend the project. Even if KWMA doesn't achieve its goal, they say, it will have accomplished much. Furthermore, many skeptics in 1988 said it was unrealistic for a group of Korean church leaders to send out 10,000 missionaries within 12 years. Yet the church leaders nearly did it.

So beginning in June of this year, at the first Protestant church established in Korea, KWMA and other groups will inaugurate their plan with a month-long, countrywide missions awareness program called World Mission Korea 2006. It will include all major denominations and agencies, says Kang. The whole nation will participate, with meetings in Seoul and 18 other cities throughout the month of June, all focusing on completing the task of world evangelization. By the end of the month, says Kang, "No church may say, 'We never heard about missions.' "

"We Koreans need to have a vision and goal for the future," Kang says. By developing international partnerships, using the resources of Korean diaspora churches, and recruiting retirees or mid-career professionals as tentmakers, Kang says, Korea has the resources to achieve its goals.

At the same time, many church leaders are preparing for the centennial of the Korean Pentecost, the 1907 revival in Pyongyang that many consider the birth of the Korean church. Mirroring that revival, respected pastors and church leaders are publicly confessing sin. Many hope for another revival that could produce an expanded awareness of missions.

So what happens if, despite immense hurdles, South Korea manages to reach the world's estimated 6,000 unreached people groups? What if it leads 21st-century missions into Asia, the final frontier of missions, and shepherds the majority world as it takes up its role in fulfilling the Great Commission? What happens if Korea's missions miracle continues?

"We expect Christ to come back," says Kang.

if ya kinda notice the idea of pre-trib is mainly an american phenomon. why is that we dont check the idea that we may be falling away in the west but the east is coming to the lord?
you have to look at the big picture not just you town and state and country.


Rob Moll is associate online editor for CT.

 

[Stormcrow]

It seems that your ability to perceive is limited in scope pertaininjg to prophecy.

This isn't about me. You haven't addressed Christ's very own clear and unequivocal words.

you teach a false doctrine that does not line up with the Word of God.

:toofunny:biglol:biglaugh

 

[Vic C.]

Probably the most serious trouble with 'pre-trib' is that it requires "another Gospel".

I COULD NOT say it better if I tried!

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


'nuff said.

 

[jasoncran]

that seems to be the way pre-trib presents that. i was a hardcore pre-tribber vic will attest. and i never said that the trib saints would have to somehow make it with works and have conditional salvation.