ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[Sam21]

Hi Sam21,..I hope you are having a great and blessed day.

You Quote:
The tribulation Jesus described that would precede His return is a great persecution, not the wrath of God, after the church is gathered THEN the wrath of God begins and later Christ returns with the saints to defeat the antichrist. Pre-trib is off because they call the tribulation that Jesus described the wrath of God when it is not, they are also off because they claim Paul described a different return than Jesus described(not in scripture).

My Reply:
No my friend,..I am not off as you state.

The Wrath of God begins with Ezsekiel 38;18,19,and 20
This lines up with Revelation 6;12 through 17.....But you would need to correctly divide this scripture to understand it's chronological order,..and of course,..The whole of Joel 2 lines up with Ezekiel 38.

Friend,there is a great tribulation that is described by Jesus in Matt24&Mark13,you can read how Jesus describes that time,it is a time of great persecution against the church and national Israel,the great tribulation Jesus described is a great persecution,of course God would not be persecuting the church so that period of time is NOT the wrath of God, Jesus said He would return after the great persecution(tribulation for believers). One can easily read the descriptions of persecution against those who believe in Christ in the period of time that Jesus called the tribulation,so the tribulation that Jesus describes is not the wrath of God but the wrath of satan against the people of God. Changing the tribulation that Jesus described from the wrath of satan into the wrath of God helps the pre-trib concept but denies the reality of the teaching of Jesus in Matt24 and Mark13.

 

[Vic C.]

that seems to be the way pre-trib presents that. i was a hardcore pre-tribber vic will attest. and i never said that the trib saints would have to somehow make it with works and have conditional salvation.

Jason has been sincere in honestly attempting to understand End Times from the varying positions and I give him credit for broadening his understanding.

I should say that I did not mean to lump all pretrib believers into the category of presenting "another" gospel. I believed in a pretrib rapture in the past and I remember that salvation was presented to these "left behind" converts no differently than it is presented to anyone else. Enduring to the end is not preserved just for them.

That was my point; we are in the age of grace it that will not change.

 

[Vic C.]

Please everyone, stay on topic and PLEASE... address issues, not persons.

 

[Stormcrow]

Well, after doing some research on the two witnesses, once again I find yet more compelling evidence that these events occurred just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

First, a little background.

This verse:

These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. Revelation 11:4 (NASB)

Actually comes from this passage in the Old Testament:

Then I said to him, "What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?" 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, "What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?" 13 So he answered me, saying, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord." 14 Then he said, "These are the two anointed ones who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth." Zechariah 4:11-14 (NASB)

The context of the passage in Zechariah refers to Zerubbabel, the governor of Judea who began rebuilding the second temple under Darius I of Persia.

"The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house, and his hands will finish it. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. Zechariah 4:9 (NASB)

Zerubbabel is thought by some scholars to be one of these "olive trees" ("annointed ones.")

Scholars believe the other olive tree mentioned in Zechariah is Joshua, the first High Priest after the Babylonian captivity, who moved the people to rebuild the temple.

Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. Zechariah 3:1 (NASB)

And the angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7 "Thus says the Lord of hosts, 'If you will walk in My ways and if you will perform My service, then you will also govern My house and also have charge of My courts, and I will grant you free access among these who are standing here. Zechariah 3:6-7 (NASB)

Based on the prophecy of Zechariah, God had chosen two holy men and anointed them to rebuild His temple.

John, in writing Revelation, uses this same prophecy from Zechariah to tell his readers that these men would be powerful - rulers of the people - and would be anointed to serve the temple ("stand before the Lord" is a phrase used to describe the office of the priesthood, Deut. 10:8).

Josephus offers compelling clues as to who these witnesses are:

But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun.

I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 776.

According to Josephus, Ananus and Jesus were the last voices of reason in Jerusalem for making peace with the Romans:

So Ananus and his party believed his oath, and did now receive him to their consultations without further suspicion; nay, so far did they believe him, that they sent him as their ambassador into the temple to the zealots, with proposals of accommodation; for they were very desirous to avoid the pollution of the temple as much as they possibly could, and that no one of their nation should be slain therein.

Flavius Josephus, The Works of Flavius Josephus, trans. William Whiston (Hartford, CN: S. S. Scranton, 1905), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 770.

These are the kind of men about whom Christ spoke when He said these words:

{9} "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Matthew 5:9 (NASB)

And with that, I return you all to your regularly scheduled food fight. :fight

 

[Stormcrow]

I believed in a pretrib rapture in the past and I remember that salvation was presented to these "left behind" converts no differently than it is presented to anyone else. Enduring to the end is not preserved just for them.

Like many others here who have expressed similar sentiments, I too, was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber. There were two "epiphanies" I experienced on the road out of that pipe dream.

The first came about 4 years ago when a Messianic Jew showed me the literal meaning of Daniel 9:27 from the Hebrew text. As I've posted elsewhere on this board, Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah, not some end-time boogeyman called "The Antichrist."

That caused me to start looking much more closely at other prophecies.

The second epiphany came when I realized - fairly recently - that Jesus spoke of two tribulations in Matthew 24, one for believers (verse 9) and one for Jerusalem (verse 21) with the former actually being a sign of the latter!

Once I saw this, suddenly the Olivet Discourse began to harmonize very well with Revelation, and I have since come to conclude that - based entirely on Christ's own words - not only is the rapture a complete misinterpretation of His words, but so is the whole concept of His coming in the first place (which I have tried to demonstrate repeatedly on other threads.)

I am so convinced that Revelation is - essentially - John's telling of the Olivet Discourse from Christ's glorified perspective, that I have begun working on a book about it. So far it's six pages long and I just finished addressing Revelation 1:1!

Here's a snippet:

1. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Ephesus: Apostolic Church (A.D. 33–100)[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Smyrna: Era of Persecution Under the Ten Caesars (A.D. 100–312)[/FONT]
3. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Pergamum: Era of Church-State Union (A.D. 312–590)[/FONT]
4. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Thyatira: Era Spanning the Middle Ages (A.D. 590–1517)[/FONT]
5. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Sardis: Protestant Reformation (A.D. 1517–1750)[/FONT]
6. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Philadelphia: Era of Revival and Great Awakening (A.D. 1750–1925)[/FONT]
7. [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Church in Laodicea: Era of “Higher Criticism” (A.D. 1900–Tribulation)[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hal Lindsey, 'There’s A New World Coming'[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]These interpretations, and many others like them, exist for one, simple reason: people believe the book was written to us, living here and now. One of the many problems with this view is that it takes the Book of Revelation completely out of the time in which it was written and away from the people to whom it was written! Freed of any temporal or cultural moorings, the book and those who interpret it are like rudderless ships driven wherever the winds of current events take them.[/FONT]

You can read the rest when I publish it in oh, I don't know, twenty years maybe? (The rest may have to wait until after I retire!)

 

[pretrib]

B]Western Model Less Useful

Majority-world missionaries say one cultural advantage works strongly in their favor. A former mission director put it this way: "There is a team working in northern India. There are a couple Koreans, a Japanese, an Ethiopian, a couple Americans, and a couple Australians. [Thus] it is very difficult for Muslims in northern India to say that Christianity is a Western religion."

In addition, majority-world missionaries know that the Western model of missions has cultural elements that are not well suited to their work in the field. Western-style missions are dramatically more expensive to maintain and require a large, complex organization to raise and disburse funds worldwide.

The majority-world model is more like a network. Due to financial constraints, it has to be more flexible and collaborative. Because majority-world missionaries are often culturally closer to those they serve on the mission field, they are also more attuned to local cultural situations.

These differences are subtle, but significant. One Korean missionary to Afghanistan complained that his Western coworkers were too analytic and too policy-driven.

Sung-Chan Kwon is now executive director of Global Bible Translators, but for six years he worked as a Western agency-sponsored missionary in Afghanistan. He says he could not accomplish his mission while following the overly rigid regulations and policies his agency specified.

Kwon says he was required to ask local Afghans first to itemize their needs before he started a project. But Kwon believed building relationships should take priority over determining the best project. "The West wants to control people with regulations. The heart is more important," he says. It's better to teach someone what it means to be a missionary, Kwon says, than simply to teach them what to do.

Some Koreans are starting to host forums to discuss what Korean missions should look like in the future. "In terms of theology and missiology, in terms of methods, we may not be unique," says David Lee, director of Global Missionary Training Center, which trains about 7 percent of Korean missionaries. "But it's uniquely Koreans doing this with Korean structure, with Korean church support, with Korean zeal and Korean spirituality, which is willing to suffer and willing to shout to God with perseverance."

However, others believe missions are missions. "There is no such thing as Korean missions," says one well-respected Korean pastor.

Steve Moon writes in his 2002 report that while Korea will continue to work with Western mission agencies in the beginning of the 21st century, it may be time for Korea to look back East and learn how to help other majority-world countries develop their mission movements. "China and India will play crucial roles in evangelizing the existing unreached world. … Korean missions are expected to develop both the philosophy and the skills to smooth partnerships both with international mission agencies with a Western background and with indigenous mission agencies with a two-thirds-world background."

Many Korean missionaries work in China, where they help train house-church leaders. David Lee, who has also served as chair of the World Evangelical Alliance mission commission, sees a big role for Korean missionaries in getting Chinese missionaries involved in Korea's Back to Jerusalem project, which aims to send 100,000 missionaries to the Middle East. "If we can somehow assist them in terms of a more modern way of thinking and coping and understanding context and crosscultural communication," he says, "I think they would have a greater survival rate."


Next Pentecost

As experienced missionaries return from the field, the Korean missions movement matures.

Instead of retiring in 1991, Kang started a new career. He launched a mission agency and became an academic dean at Chongshin University and director of the Korea World Mission Association (KWMA).

Kang and the association plan to send 100,000 full-time Korean missionaries by 2030. They hope to mobilize 50 percent of Korean churches to be involved in missions, recruit 1 of every 300 Korean Christians to become missionaries, adopt 200 unreached people groups every five years, and send 1 million tentmakers into difficult-access countries by 2020.

It's an ambitious plan, and not everyone believes it is practical. Steve Moon says the project is "unrealistic." The mission infrastructure is already overwhelmed, he says. Currently the infrastructure in Korea can only support about 5,000 missionaries. The only way to send 100,000 missionaries would be to include tentmakers in the definition of a missionary. One pastor on the board of KWMA says that although he didn't vote against the project, it is too ambitious. Koreans' ambition can be a problem, he says, and this is a good example.

But others defend the project. Even if KWMA doesn't achieve its goal, they say, it will have accomplished much. Furthermore, many skeptics in 1988 said it was unrealistic for a group of Korean church leaders to send out 10,000 missionaries within 12 years. Yet the church leaders nearly did it.

So beginning in June of this year, at the first Protestant church established in Korea, KWMA and other groups will inaugurate their plan with a month-long, countrywide missions awareness program called World Mission Korea 2006. It will include all major denominations and agencies, says Kang. The whole nation will participate, with meetings in Seoul and 18 other cities throughout the month of June, all focusing on completing the task of world evangelization. By the end of the month, says Kang, "No church may say, 'We never heard about missions.' "

"We Koreans need to have a vision and goal for the future," Kang says. By developing international partnerships, using the resources of Korean diaspora churches, and recruiting retirees or mid-career professionals as tentmakers, Kang says, Korea has the resources to achieve its goals.

At the same time, many church leaders are preparing for the centennial of the Korean Pentecost, the 1907 revival in Pyongyang that many consider the birth of the Korean church. Mirroring that revival, respected pastors and church leaders are publicly confessing sin. Many hope for another revival that could produce an expanded awareness of missions.

So what happens if, despite immense hurdles, South Korea manages to reach the world's estimated 6,000 unreached people groups? What if it leads 21st-century missions into Asia, the final frontier of missions, and shepherds the majority world as it takes up its role in fulfilling the Great Commission? What happens if Korea's missions miracle continues?

"We expect Christ to come back," says Kang.

if ya kinda notice the idea of pre-trib is mainly an american phenomon. why is that we dont check the idea that we may be falling away in the west but the east is coming to the lord?
you have to look at the big picture not just you town and state and country.


Rob Moll is associate online editor for CT.

That was a great read.........Does smuggling bible tracts into the former Soviet Union count?:yes

 

[pretrib]

This isn't about me. You haven't addressed Christ's very own clear and unequivocal words.



:toofunny:biglol:biglaugh

Your not paying attention...actually I addressed Christ's very own clear and unequivocal words.
Do you not realize that context is king
You should try not leaving out the other scriptures, if you want the real meaning that was originally intended brought forth.

 

[pretrib]

I COULD NOT say it better if I tried!

Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,


'nuff said.

Well then vic,....suppose you tell us when Ezekiel 38 begins,..because that is when the wrath of God begins and all students of bible prophecy should all agree that the Bride does not enter the Wrath of God.
I claim that Ezekiel 38 begins prior to Daniels 70th week,.....can you scripturally prove other wise?
Just to save you some time,...it cannot be done.;)

 

[pretrib]

No, you will have to do some other studying - & I will not work for dispy nonsense .

Jesus' use of "this generation" in the Greek was the "generation" word for His contemporaries. Look it up. The Greek makes all your post mute.
(I don't care what you say men say to sell books & or have nothing else to spoon feed about- since they can't even preach about the faith or any of the faith from the OT)


We could continue along these lines of investigation, but I choose to end the search for the meaning of this word "generation" with a quotation from the Works of Josephus where he uses the word "generation."

"I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly:– That neither did any other city [making reference to Jerusalem] ever suffered such miseries [referring to the siege and destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans] nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this [generation] was, from the beginning of the world."
The Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 10, Paragraph 51, Line 442.


Did you understand what the HISTORIAN said? And will you look up the Greek use for "this generation" shall be held liable for all the blood ........?

Answer my question in due time. Have you read the Works of Josephus? Do you know what I'm talking about?

You seem to have a habit of not reseaching out the truth......are you just stating what your mentors are stating?

A generation can be between 70 and eighty years,...and the sign that began the last generation was the birth of Israel on May 14, 1948
Psalms 90:
10The length of our days is seventy years—
or eighty, if we have the strength;
yet their spana is but trouble and sorrow,
for they quickly pass, and we fly away.

Isaiah 66​

Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?†says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?†says your God.
10“Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.

Ezekiel's Prophecy of Israel's Rebirth in 1948
In the year 592 B.C. in the Babylonian Empire a Hebrew slave named Ezekiel was instructed by an angel to:

" Lie on your left side and put the sin of the house of Israel upon yourself. You are to bear their sin for the number of days you lie on your side. I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin. So for 390 days you will bear the sin of the house of Israel. After you have finished this, lie down again, this time on your right side, and bear the sin of the house of Judah. I have assigned you 40 days, a day for each year." (Ezekiel 4:4-6).

At the time of this visitation the Jews were in captivity after being overthrown by the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzer in 606 B.C. This 70 year captivity of the Jews had been prophesied extensively by Isaiah almost 100 years earlier (Isaiah 39:5-7) and (Jeremiah chapt 25&27).

Now the prophecy in Ezekiel chapt 4 predicts a total of 430 years of punishment for the nation of Israel. 70 years of this period of punishment are accounted for in the 70 year Babylonian captivity. That leaves 360 more years of punishment unaccounted for. For centuries biblical scholars could find nowhere in history a period of punishment on Israel that could corresponds to the remaining 360 years of punishment.

In the book of Leviticus, chapt 26, we are told that if the nation of Israel did not hearken (obey) unto the Lord that she would be punished. Then after being punished, if the nation continued to be in rebellion toward God that the punishment would be multiplied by seven:

"If you will not listen to me and carry out all these commands, and if you reject my decrees and abhor my laws and fail to carry out all my commands and so violate my covenant...I will set my face against you so that you will be defeated by your enemies. If after all this you will not listen to me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over. "..Leviticus 26: 14-22.

Recently Biblical scholars have applied this Levitical principle of multiplying Israel's punishment by seven to the remaining 360 years of punishment and found a phenomenal discovery. 4

The Biblical prophetic year in the Jewish calendar is 360 days long. This discovery was made by Sir Robert Anderson in his book The Coming Prince. 5 In fact, all ancient calendars of the world, at one time calculated the year as 360 days. So if you multiple the 360 years of remaining punishment x 360 days/year x 7 times punishment (Levitical principle) = 907,200 days. 907,200 days is 2483.8 years (modern Julian calendar years). So, 907,200 days of punishment remained for the nation of Israel after the 70 year Babylonian captivity. The question is where do you begin calculating the remaining 907,200 days?

Servitude of the Nation
There is a Biblical term applied to the nation of Israel called the period of the servitude of the nation. This refers to the period of time that the conquered people of Israel lived through without their own rulership. The people and nation of Israel ceased being a sovereign nation in 606 B.C. And began the first 70 years of servitude at that time. After the 70 year Babylonian captivity they returned to the land but they were ruled over by a succession of empires (Medo-Persian, Greek, Roman) until 70 AD When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans. Then for the next 18 centuries the Israelites were dispersed among the many nations of the world and for the most part were slaves. To the Jewish mind they lost their sovereignty in 606 B.C. with the Babylonian takeover and didn't regain it until the servitude of the nation ended on May 14, 1948 when Israel again became a nation.

The Babylonian captivity began July 25th 606 B.C. and ended July 23rd 537 B.C. This was the very day that the Medo-Persian emperor Cyrus gave the decree that allowed the Jews to return to Israel. If you begin counting the 907,200 days of remaining punishment from July 23rd 537 B.C., the day of Cyrus' decree and the end of the first 70 years of the servitude, and go foreword 907,200 days you get May 14th 1948!!! This was the very day that David Ben Gurion announced to the whole world the official formation of the nation of Israel!!!

Skeptical? Read on.

Desolations of Jerusalem
Another term commonly discussed is the period of the desolations of Jerusalem. This was the period of time prophesied by the prophets in which the city of Jerusalem would be desolate and 'trodden down by the gentiles". Many people have mistakenly believed that this term was the same period as the Servitude of the nation discussed above. However, this period of the desolation's of Jerusalem did not begin in 606 B.C. when Nebuchadnezzer took the first captives. The desolation's of Jerusalem began with the third siege of Jerusalem with the destruction of the city and the temple. The city and the temple were destroyed on August 18th ,587 B.C. in the third siege of Nebuchadnezzer and the Babylonian army. Exactly seventy Hebrew calendar years later (360 days/year) brings us to August 16th, 518 B.C. If we begin calculating the remaining 907,200 days of punishment from that day it brings us to June 7th ,1967. This is the very day Israel recaptured the city of Jerusalem during the Six day war with Egypt, Jordan and Syria!!!

How could Ezekiel have predicted this? He couldn't unless he was instructed by one that lives outside of time. Truly god sees the beginning from the end and is outside of time as we know it!
The Bible: Proofs of Its Supernatural Origin

 

[pretrib]

that seems to be the way pre-trib presents that. i was a hardcore pre-tribber vic will attest. and i never said that the trib saints would have to somehow make it with works and have conditional salvation.

And for the third time I state the following:

So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.

In other words you shall know them by their fruit.

 

[pretrib]

Friend,there is a great tribulation that is described by Jesus in Matt24&Mark13,you can read how Jesus describes that time,it is a time of great persecution against the church and national Israel,the great tribulation Jesus described is a great persecution,of course God would not be persecuting the church so that period of time is NOT the wrath of God, Jesus said He would return after the great persecution(tribulation for believers). One can easily read the descriptions of persecution against those who believe in Christ in the period of time that Jesus called the tribulation,so the tribulation that Jesus describes is not the wrath of God but the wrath of satan against the people of God. Changing the tribulation that Jesus described from the wrath of satan into the wrath of God helps the pre-trib concept but denies the reality of the teaching of Jesus in Matt24 and Mark13.

Sam,...who do you see as opening the seals in revelation 6..???
I assure you the rapture occurrs before the seals are opened and that the whole of Daniels 70th week is Gods wrath,....it is obvious to me that you are attempting to quote the errouneous pre-wrath doctrine.

 

[jasoncran]

And for the third time I state the following:

So that I am not misunderstood......that these tribulation survivors aren't being judged by their works. Their works are being cited as evidence of their faith, as in James 2:18......But just like it's been throughout history, all are saved by faith.

In other words you shall know them by their fruit.

ok at first you claimed that the age of grace ended. do i have to quote you on that.?

indeed i will.

During Daniels 70th week ..salvation is conditional
Today ..prior to the pre-trib rapture,..we are saved by Grace
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

so how that be then if we are saved by grace now and the trib saints are too. you are unsure that age of grace didnt end? or does it end or does it end?

 

[pretrib]

Jason has been sincere in honestly attempting to understand End Times from the varying positions and I give him credit for broadening his understanding.

I should say that I did not mean to lump all pretrib believers into the category of presenting "another" gospel. I believed in a pretrib rapture in the past and I remember that salvation was presented to these "left behind" converts no differently than it is presented to anyone else. Enduring to the end is not preserved just for them.

That was my point; we are in the age of grace it that will not change.

I do not believe that you understand the concept of what really happened and the consequences it carried...allow me to help you understand.

In revelation 4 we see that the 24 elders had crowns,....these obviously are representing the Bride already caught up into heaven "BEFORE the seals of judgement were opened.But it is scriptural that when the Lord stands,..He is about to Judge as we see that the Lord is standing and taking the seals from the Father.Isaiah 3:13 says, The LORD Standeth Up to plead, and STANDETH TO JUDGE THE PEOPLE.......John 5:22 says, “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:â€(Rev 5:6 says, The Lamb Stands Up to Judge.) The Lamb is no longer sitting on the Throne of Grace, Heb 4:16. Notice how this thought is paralleling between the two books.

John 5:27 says, “And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.†(Rev 5:7, the Lamb comes and takes the Book out of the right hand of him who sits upon the throne showing that he has NOW received the authority to judge!)
.......Got it.
Jack Kelly explains the the difference of today(the age of Grace) and salvation without Grace in Daniels 70th week.

The Age of Grace began at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. This makes sense when you consider that in Ephesians 2:7 Paul said that through the Church God wants to demonstrate the incomparable riches of His grace in the ages yet to come. To accomplish this, He made our relationship with Him different than anyone else's before or after. In Ephesians 3:8-10 Paul said that he was chosen by God to preach the unsearchable riches of Christ to the Gentiles.And when the Fulness of the Gentiles has come the age of Grace is over. This was a mystery in the past, but God's intent was that now, through the church, His manifold wisdom would be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realm. That means angels, both faithful and fallen, learn something of God's wisdom by studying the Church.

So both the angels in Heaven and future generations of men on Earth will see in the Church the perfection of God's love. In Ephes. 2:10 Paul called the Church God's workmanship. The Greek word means to make something from something else. It's used only twice in the New Testament and both times it describes the work of God as our Creator.

In our case, He took something worthless and made it into something priceless. He forgave all of our sins in advance, (Col. 2:13-15) making His pardon free for the asking (Matt. 7:7-8). When we ask, He begins from that moment on to see us as if we're as righteous as He is, (2 Cor. 5:17,21) and at the Rapture He'll transform us to become in fact that which we already are is His sight. (1 Cor. 15:51-53) Then He'll reward us with a portion of His inheritance (Gal. 4:7), and a seat with His Son in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come (Ephes. 1:20-21 & 2:6).

In the coming age, men on Earth will look up into the sky and see the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, in orbit nearby. It will be their source of light and though they'll never be able to visit it, descriptions of its beauty and majesty will stagger their imaginations. All of creation will stand in awe of this display of the incomparable riches of God's grace.

This is why the Church is God's workmanship, not ours, and why the Bible is so clear on the fact that we can do nothing to earn or keep our salvation. In order to be the ultimate example of His grace, our salvation has to be 100% dependent on Him. Anything we do in an effort to help ourselves diminishes His workmanship. No other group in the history of man has deserved so little and been given so much, and that's just the way He intended it.

Saved By Faith, Obedient To The Law
But that all comes to a crashing halt at the Rapture. Even during Daniel's 70th Week it's clear that life on Earth will be a lot more like it was in the Old Testament than it is in the New. For example, the Jews only need to build a Temple in order to conduct animal sacrifice. Their worship system requires it. Remember, in the middle of the 70th week the Abomination of Desolation will cause an end to the sacrifice and offering (Daniel 9:27). That means sacrifices will have begun again with the construction of the Temple, because they aren't being done now.

In an earlier study, The Nature Of Post Church Salvation, I made the case that post Church believers, whether Jew or Gentile, will not enjoy the seal of the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of their inheritance. Eternal Security is a blessing for the Church alone and ends with the end of the Age of Grace at the Rapture. Two passages from Revelation illustrate this.

1. This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)



Speaking of the perilous times after the introduction of the Mark of the Beast, the Lord had John say that both obedience and faith will be required of Tribulation believers, whereas the Church is saved by grace through faith alone.

2. "Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed." (Rev. 16:15.)

When used symbolically, clothing always stands for righteousness. Note that it's the Tribulation believer's responsibility to maintain his righteousness. It's not imputed to him solely by faith as ours is.

Immediately after the 2nd Coming, the Temple will be cleansed and on Earth animal sacrifice will begin again. The fact that there were animal sacrifices before the Church and there will be animal sacrifices after the Church shows that they were not eliminated forever when Jesus came, but only suspended during the Age of Grace. (In the New Jerusalem, home of the Church, there is no Temple. (Rev. 21:22) Having been the Lord's Temple for the last 2000 years, we'll see that He's become ours.

I have more to explain,..but I'l await your responce on this post first.

 

[jasoncran]

compare with jesus

ye shall know them by their fruits. and if ye are my disciples indeed ye shall have love for one and another.

hmm the trib saints are just as much as a disciple as those that heard that then.

 

[pretrib]

Well, after doing some research on the two witnesses, once again I find yet more compelling evidence that these events occurred just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

First, a little background.

This verse:Actually comes from this passage in the Old Testament:The context of the passage in Zechariah refers to Zerubbabel, the governor of Judea who began rebuilding the second temple under Darius I of Persia.Zerubbabel is thought by some scholars to be one of these "olive trees" ("annointed ones.")

Scholars believe the other olive tree mentioned in Zechariah is Joshua, the first High Priest after the Babylonian captivity, who moved the people to rebuild the temple.Based on the prophecy of Zechariah, God had chosen two holy men and anointed them to rebuild His temple.

John, in writing Revelation, uses this same prophecy from Zechariah to tell his readers that these men would be powerful - rulers of the people - and would be anointed to serve the temple ("stand before the Lord" is a phrase used to describe the office of the priesthood, Deut. 10:8).

Josephus offers compelling clues as to who these witnesses are:According to Josephus, Ananus and Jesus were the last voices of reason in Jerusalem for making peace with the Romans:These are the kind of men about whom Christ spoke when He said these words:
And with that, I return you all to your regularly scheduled food fight. :fight

I believe that the two witnesses are Enoch and Elijah.

When the Great and terrible Day of the Lord begins,...it begins when the A.O.D. begins. Anytime there is a word change of description, there is a reason for it.
In the first half of Daniels 70th week, the Great multitude, the two witnesses and the 144,000 will be able to witness and bring many to the Lord in the first half "UNOBSTRUCTED"
The reason for this is because permission to war and prevail against the saints is not granted to the beast until the A.O.D. begins and the Beast is also granted to continue for 42 months Revelation 13;5-7.
Malachi 4:5 is clear that the Lord will send Elijah........"before"......... the Great and terrible Day of the Lord.
Enoch and Elijah will die their death as it is appointed for man to die once (O.T.Saints before the Cross) ,....when the A.O.D. begins.(Take notice that it was at the midpoint of Daniels 70 week that the Beast, Rev 13;5-7)is granted to prevail and not before.

 

[pretrib]

Like many others here who have expressed similar sentiments, I too, was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber. There were two "epiphanies" I experienced on the road out of that pipe dream.

The first came about 4 years ago when a Messianic Jew showed me the literal meaning of Daniel 9:27 from the Hebrew text. As I've posted elsewhere on this board, Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah, not some end-time boogeyman called "The Antichrist."

That caused me to start looking much more closely at other prophecies.

The second epiphany came when I realized - fairly recently - that Jesus spoke of two tribulations in Matthew 24, one for believers (verse 9) and one for Jerusalem (verse 21) with the former actually being a sign of the latter!

Once I saw this, suddenly the Olivet Discourse began to harmonize very well with Revelation, and I have since come to conclude that - based entirely on Christ's own words - not only is the rapture a complete misinterpretation of His words, but so is the whole concept of His coming in the first place (which I have tried to demonstrate repeatedly on other threads.)

I am so convinced that Revelation is - essentially - John's telling of the Olivet Discourse from Christ's glorified perspective, that I have begun working on a book about it. So far it's six pages long and I just finished addressing Revelation 1:1!

Here's a snippet:
You can read the rest when I publish it in oh, I don't know, twenty years maybe? (The rest may have to wait until after I retire!)

You Quote:
Like many others here who have expressed similar sentiments, I too, was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber. There were two "epiphanies" I experienced on the road out of that pipe dream.

The first came about 4 years ago when a Messianic Jew showed me the literal meaning of Daniel 9:27 from the Hebrew text. As I've posted elsewhere on this board, Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah, not some end-time boogeyman called "The Antichrist."

My Reply:
The people - Who are the people? Recall that Daniel has previously revealed four Gentile world empires that would have a great impact on the fate of Israel - Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (see Daniel 2:31-43-notes; Da 7:1-6-notes, Da 7:7, 8-notes - click to study these passages charted out in parallel with Daniel 9:24-27). As discussed in those passages it becomes obvious that the Roman Empire will be revived ("Revived Roman Empire" - this term per se does not appear in the Bible) again as a ten-nation confederacy during the last days. Thus the people of the prince to come will have some connection with the Romans and a revived Roman Empire.
How do we know? If one looks at the action of these people in destroying the city (Jerusalem) and the sanctuary (the Holy Jewish Temple in Jerusalem), the most obvious conclusion from history is that this event was fulfilled in the sacking and destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70AD, which would identify the people as the Roman Empire led by the Roman General Titus. The prince who is to come would then be associated somehow with the Roman Empire or what has been designated by most evangelical commentaries as the "Revived Roman Empire". Observe carefully that this verse does not state that the prince comes at this time nor that the city is destroyed by him but by his people.
Donald Campbell notes that...
Leopold Cohn (additional note), a European rabbi, studied the prophecy of the 70 weeks and came to the conclusion, based on verse 26, that Messiah had already come because His coming was to be before the destruction had taken place in A.D. 70! Approaching an older rabbi, he asked where Messiah was. The rabbi said, "Go to New York and you will find Messiah there." Selling most of his belongings to buy passage to America, Mr. Cohn came to this country and wandered the streets of New York City, looking for Messiah. One day he heard singing coming from a building and went in, only to hear a clear gospel message. That night he received the Lord Jesus Christ as Messiah and Savior. Shortly after, Mr. Cohn bought a stable, swept it out, set up some chairs, and began to hold gospel meetings, the first outreach of what was to become the American Board of Missions to the Jews. (Campbell, D. Daniel God's Man in a Secular Society)

In the days ahead in our lifetime,...the Psalms 83/Isaiah 17;1 prophecy will occur,..and Israel will destroy all her immediate surrounding Arab neighbors, and she will obtain all the land that God had promised Abraham's descendants.
During those days,..a false sense of security will come for Israel, and she will defence her walls and villages,..and then the prophecy of Ezekiel 38-39 will come to pass, and all the outer Islamic nations will be defeated by God Himself,..and then the antichrist will step forward.
But,...what you need to understand/recognize,...is that the Lord will rapture His Bride sometime between the Psalms 83 war and the Ezekiel 38-39 invasion, and it's possible that it may take several months for the false sense of security to develop as an established fact.
This Ezekiel 38-39 invasion occurrs at an unknown day or hour, and so too does the rapture occurrs at an unknown day or hour.
Ezekiel 38;18-20 begins the Day of the Lord.
It is believed by many that Ezekiel 38 will occur just slightly prior to Daniels 70th week.
The ancient Jewish wedding is a shadow type of the rapture and it too indicates that the Bride is in heaven only 7 years before returning with the Lord.
The Lord is described as returning as it was during the Days of Noah,...for they were marrying and giving in marriage,...this is the Lord describing a normal life setting,..which is not a description provided in Revelation 16,...which is all duck and cover.
,..the Lord even went one step further in making sure that one got the picture that He intended by stating that two women would be grinding at the mill,…one taken, the other left behind,..the point is they were both doing something in a normal setting,..they were working.
This picture presented is backed up by two more pictures as to a recognizable setting in a time of peace, in which I believe will be a false peace.
One other being 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.
1 Thessalonians 4;16-17..the rapture of the Bride,..and that 1 Thessalonians 5 they will say peace and safety and sudden destruction will come upon …â€THEMâ€â€¦.and …â€THEY†shall not escape………I do not see anything there that states …â€US†or “BRIDEâ€

And last but not least,..Ezekiel 38;11-14…It was when Israel believed that she was dwelling in peace and safety,..that sudden destruction prevailed.
I believe that the rapture will occur just moments before Ezekiel 38,..and I believe that Ezekiel 38;18-20 are the beginning of the wrath of God.
This invasion you will see in Joel chapter 2(Consider the History of Israel before and after her birth, and Russia’s geographical description.
I believe that the coming war of Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 will result in a false peace,that is a requirement for Ezekiel 38.I do not know how long it will take for this false peace to take effect, and when in that general time that He will take us home,…only that we will understand the general time era, and nothing more.The sign post’s will be extremely strong in those days.

 

[pretrib]

Like many others here who have expressed similar sentiments, I too, was a dyed-in-the-wool pre-tribber. There were two "epiphanies" I experienced on the road out of that pipe dream.

The first came about 4 years ago when a Messianic Jew showed me the literal meaning of Daniel 9:27 from the Hebrew text. As I've posted elsewhere on this board, Daniel 9:27 is about Messiah, not some end-time boogeyman called "The Antichrist."

That caused me to start looking much more closely at other prophecies.

The second epiphany came when I realized - fairly recently - that Jesus spoke of two tribulations in Matthew 24, one for believers (verse 9) and one for Jerusalem (verse 21) with the former actually being a sign of the latter!

Once I saw this, suddenly the Olivet Discourse began to harmonize very well with Revelation, and I have since come to conclude that - based entirely on Christ's own words - not only is the rapture a complete misinterpretation of His words, but so is the whole concept of His coming in the first place (which I have tried to demonstrate repeatedly on other threads.)

I am so convinced that Revelation is - essentially - John's telling of the Olivet Discourse from Christ's glorified perspective, that I have begun working on a book about it. So far it's six pages long and I just finished addressing Revelation 1:1!

Here's a snippet:
You can read the rest when I publish it in oh, I don't know, twenty years maybe? (The rest may have to wait until after I retire!)

You Quote:
Once I saw this, suddenly the Olivet Discourse began to harmonize very well with Revelation, and I have since come to conclude that - based entirely on Christ's own words - not only is the rapture a complete misinterpretation of His words, but so is the whole concept of His coming in the first place (which I have tried to demonstrate repeatedly on other threads.)

My Reply:

"So shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:37).
​

11

The Olivet Solution

One day Jesus sat down on the Mount of Olives and the disciples came up to Him and asked about His second coming. Jesus revealed to them signs that would precede His coming, including the Great Tribulation, and He told them of His coming with power and great glory after the tribulation. Jesus concluded this portion of the discourse in an unexpected way. He said of His coming, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36). "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 25:13).
Doesn't it seem strange that the strongest statements of imminency in the entire Bible occur in this post-tribulational context? It is very puzzling after what we learned in chapter two that believers can count 1260 days from the abomination of desolation to the return of Christ. Is this a contradiction? Is the Olivet Discourse an insoluble riddle? Or can we find a solution?

 

[pretrib]

THE OLIVET PROBLEM

These statements of imminency have been a "hot potato" for pre-tribulationists to handle. They have faced the embarrassing choice of being accused of interrupting the flow of the context by saying that they refer to the beginning of the tribulation or of ignoring them altogether by depending on other and weaker verses for their doctrine of imminency. The latter choice is like running from the ocean in order to dive into a bucket, and the first choice is like trying to turn a mule around who doesn't want to be turned around.
For post-tribulationists the Olivet Discourse has been a fortress, for they are pleased to see that surprise can fit into a post-tribulational setting. Yet there is a crack in that fortress because they are hard put to explain the outright contradiction of the unknown day when Daniel and Revelation give the exact day.
Both sides, then, face a problem.

I myself faced this dilemma for quite awhile without any solution in sight. If I grabbed one horn, the bull would jab me with his other horn. On the one hand, I had to believe that the day of the post-tribulational return could be calculated because Daniel and Revelation said so. At the same time the post-tribulational context in Matthew 24 pressed down upon me with increasing force. I felt I was facing a brick wall. Why does God give us problems like this? He gives us problems to cause us to seek Him, to meditate, to dig a little deeper. Several times while researching this subject I have faced a brick wall. It was those occasions which led to the greatest discoveries.
So as I faced the problem of the Olivet Discourse, I sought an answer from God. After the answer came it seemed so simple that I wondered what had been so hard about it. I laughed at myself for not knowing it long before.

The Precedent. A similar dilemma faced the Jews of Old Testament times. They looked at passages in which two irreconcilable prophecies were woven together. Would the Messiah come suffering or would He come ruling? Who would ever dream that He would come twice, once to suffer and once to rule! Imagine the debates that could have gone on, each side trying to interpret it their way at the expense of the data on the other side. Then Jesus came and opened the Scriptures and made it clear.
Much of prophecy has double reference. This is a recognized and common rule of interpretation for the Old Testament. If for the Old, why not for the New? When we come to Matthew 24–25 maybe we can save ourselves a lot of argument if we will let this prophecy be like much other prophecy. Perhaps we can tackle the bull if we grab both horns. The perfect solution to the problem would be to let "the coming of the Son of man" refer at the same time to the post-trib and the pre-trib coming.
Double reference in Old Testament prophecy is readily accepted. Is double reference accepted in New Testament prophecy also? Yes, a passage that is generally agreed to have double reference is Luke 21:12–24 (part of the Olivet Discourse, by the way). In that passage the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 prefigures the destruction of Jerusalem during the tribulation. Therefore, we cannot limit double reference prophecy to the Old Testament. It happens in the New also.
When it first hit me that the solution to Matthew 24 might be double reference, I said to myself, "I must run back to Matthew 24 and read it again. I've got to check it out to see if it's really true or not."

The Clue. I grabbed my Bible and reread the illustration of the days of Noah very carefully (verses 37–42). In this illustration Jesus compares the surprise of His coming to the surprise of the flood. "And [they] knew not until the flood came, and took them all away ... watch, therefore; for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." When I read that I noticed a strange incongruity. Do you see it too? How strange that believers should be compared, not to Noah, but to the wicked. "They knew not ... Ye know not." I had read this many times before without being struck by this riddle. But now I was baffled.
Then I saw that it was more than a riddle; it was a clue. It was a clue to a whole new way of looking at Matthew 24.
But I am getting ahead of my story. First I want to back up and talk about the "fig tree" and "this generation" which occur earlier in Matthew 24.

DO MODERN EVENTS HELP US DATE THE RAPTURE?

The Fig Tree. Look at these verses:

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors (Matthew 24:32–33).
​

What does the fig tree represent? Does it represent the nation Israel? What does the putting forth leaves represent? Does it speak of Israel's becoming a nation in 1948? Does the budding of the fig tree mean that we can approximate the time of the rapture? How can we know the correct interpretation?
Jesus gives the interpretation, and this should erase all doubt as to the meaning. Jesus says the putting forth of leaves represents the coming to pass of "all these things." What are "all these things"? The very things He has just spoken of, namely events to occur during the tribulation period. Read Matthew 24 and see if Jesus speaks of Israel's becoming a nation. I can't find it. Jesus does speak of the "beginning of sorrows" and the "great tribulation." These two time periods, I tend to believe, form the two halves of the seven-year tribulation. Whether or not you agree with this, one thing remains clear: Jesus never spoke of Israel becoming a nation. So there is no contextual basis for reading the nationhood of Israel in the fig leaves. Safety of interpretation comes only by sticking to Jesus' own interpretation.
One may object that if the nationhood of Israel is not in the context, then it finds its basis from other Scripture. Well, all it takes to answer that is a little counting. Remember, a concordance is a Bible student's best friend. If you were to consult your best friend and count the references, you would discover that the fig tree stands for Israel only one-tenth of the times it is used in the Bible. Furthermore, even the few verses where the fig tree does stand for the nation, not one of them supports the idea that the leaves represent Israel's becoming a nation.
Consider also, the parallel passage in Luke 21:29. From it we learn that Jesus is not singling out the fig tree over any other tree, because He is actually referring to "all the trees." This should disperse any idea of one particular symbol for Israel being on Jesus' mind. According to Luke 21:31 the fig tree signals the kingdom of God (millennium), not the pre-trib rapture.
What do the leaves of the fig tree represent? They represent the coming to pass of "all these things" that Jesus has spoken of earlier in Matthew 24. Notice the word "all." It reads not, "When you see these things begin to come to pass." No, not the beginning, not some of these things, but when you see all these things, then the fig tree has budded, then you know the end is near. Have you seen the abomination of desolation? If not, then you haven't seen the fig tree bud.
If the rapture were a hundred years away, that future generation would still see "all these things" that Jesus listed in Matthew 24. From the little word "all" to the broad context in Matthew 24, the budding of the fig tree refers to the tribulation events Jesus has named, not to some event in 1948.
Can we approximate the time of the rapture by watching the fig tree? No, the fig tree will bud after we are gone. I don't want to be around to watch "all these things" which Jesus spoke of. I hope I am raptured before that.

 

[pretrib]

This Generation. Then consider these verses:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 24:34–35).
​

What does "this generation" mean? Does it mean the generation living which sees these signs? Or does it mean the people of Israel? The former interpretation defines a generation as 30, 40, or 70 years. The latter interpretation allows the generation (or people) of Israel to span the centuries. Which is correct? Both meanings are theoretically possible for the Greek word "generation." But which meaning makes sense in this context?
Does a generation of 30 or 40 years make sense? If Jesus meant a generation of 30 or 40 years dated from the time of the signs (which are tribulation signs, remember), then Jesus would be saying, "Thirty or forty years shall not pass before seven years of tribulation passes." This does not make sense.
It does make sense, though, to say that the people of Israel will not pass from the earth until all the things promised her have been fulfilled. She will not be wiped out by her enemies; she will survive until God finally gathers her from the four corners of the earth into her own land in peace and prosperity.
Not only does the latter interpretation make more sense to us, but it would have made more sense to the disciples who were listening. Rather than being concerned about a far-off generation which watches end-time events, they were concerned about the national promises to Israel. They became concerned when Jesus told them the temple would be demolished so that not one stone would be left upon another. If the temple would pass away, what would happen to God's promises to Israel? This made them ask about His coming (which they knew would involve a restoration of the temple and of the nation). The disciples' questions arose out of concern for their people, and so they would understand when Jesus responded, "This line of people shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
This interpretation not only makes more sense in the context, but it better suits the grammar. "This" generation points to something close at hand, namely, the existing nation. If a far-off generation were intended, more likely the word would have been "that" generation. The demonstrative pronoun is the tipoff.
For more confirmation we can go to the following verse (verse 35) which illustrates and illuminates the meaning. "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Such a grand statement is more fitting to guarantee the security of a people. The line of people is more secure than "heaven and earth." "My words shall not pass away" corresponds to the sure promises to that people.

Israel's Guarantee​

Verse 34
This generation (line of people) shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.
Verse 35
Heaven and earth shall pass away,
but my words shall not pass away.


The Greek language has another word which means "nation." This made me wonder why Jesus didn't say "nation" instead of "generation" if that is what He meant. Perhaps "nation" wouldn't fit because the nation as a political unit did pass away—they had no nation of Israel for centuries—but the line, the stock of people, continued on.
Why do we say all this about the "fig tree" and "this generation"? Because we want to show that the rapture cannot be dated. Some zealous and well-meaning Christians try to predict the rapture using the budding of the fig tree and calculating a generation of years. Various calculations use various starting points and various lengths of generations, showing that the entire speculation is not on solid ground.
Interpreting from the context before and after and on all sides, the fig tree buds after the rapture and "this generation" refers to the people of Israel rather than to a period of 30, 40, or 70 years. This means we cannot calculate the time of the rapture. It will come as a surprise.
(Perhaps in a secondary sense, "this generation" refers to the forty years from the time of Christ to the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D. If so, this would answer the disciples' question about when the temple would be destroyed. But because of the connection of verses—or disconnection—I cannot tell if this is the case.)

What About "Signs of the Times"? If the fig tree has not yet budded, then of what significance is 1948 when Israel became a nation? That event sets the stage for the drama of the tribulation. Since we know that during the tribulation Israel will be a nation in their land, it can be argued that Israel must become a nation before the tribulation. On the other hand, it could be argued that the covenant between antichrist and Israel at the beginning of the tribulation (Daniel 9:27) could itself signal the forming of the nation. As long as the latter option was possible, there was nothing to say that Israel had to become a nation before the tribulation. However, God chose to let it happen ahead of time.
Some claim that the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 was a fulfillment of Luke 21:24. However, Jerusalem will be overrun by Gentiles again during the tribulation (Revelation 11:2). This means that Luke 21:24 is not yet fulfilled, and it means that we cannot look to Luke 21:24 for a "pre-tribulational sign."
What about the other "signs of the times" like earthquakes and famines? Are they not increasing today? A certain pastor told me how he figured this out. Some books he read said that no sign whatsoever comes before the rapture. Other books said that we have "signs of the times" to tell us the rapture is approaching. Which was right? Signs or no signs? Well, this pastor said he sat back in his chair, wiggled his toes, and thought, "Technically speaking, the 'signs' belong to the tribulation period, but some signs 'slop over' into the church age. What some call 'signs of the times' are really a slopping over of tribulation signs." I think he's right. God is giving us a foretaste of what is to come. No signs are necessary before the rapture, but God in His mercy allows His bride to see some signs making her more eager for the meeting in the air.
Perhaps another sign "slopping over" into this age is the gift of tongues. When the disciples spoke in tongues in Acts two, what Biblical support did Peter offer for speaking in tongues? Joel 2:28–32. However, Joel 2:28–32, strictly speaking, is not to be fulfilled until the millennium because that is when the Spirit shall be poured out upon "all flesh." Historically, tongues have ceased according to 1 Corinthians 13:8. But if the millennial sign of tongues could spill over into Peter's time, then if tongues are reappearing today (as the nation of Israel has reappeared), it may also be a spilling over of millennial prophecy, showing us that the time is near. Of course, tongues should be used to build up the body of Christ, not to tear it apart.
At any rate, these signs give no time indication in terms of years; they merely tell us that the time is approaching. Personally, I think He will come soon. But I don't want you to be discouraged if He comes later than we expect.
He might come sooner than we expect. We cannot guess the time of the rapture. It comes in surprise. Remember this, because it is one key which unlocks the mystery of the Olivet problem.

THE RIDDLE OF NOAH

Now we are ready to return to our riddle about Noah. Study this passage closely and then we will consider some questions.

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and knew not [they knew not, in Greek] until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.... Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come (Matthew 24:37–39,42).
​

.

 

[pretrib]

Let me ask you a couple questions first, before I ask you a stumper.
Question one, the flood victims. Who do the flood victims represent? Jesus relates this illustration in order to make a comparison to the end times; so the flood victims must represent someone in the end times. Who? Remember the context. Jesus has been talking about the tribulation, and He told about His return after the tribulation. In this context, who do the flood victims represent?
The flood victims correspond to unbelievers who are destroyed at Christ's return. Just as the flood destroyed unbelievers of old, so Christ's return will destroy unbelievers of the end times. Just as the flood took those unbelievers by surprise, so Christ's return will take these unbelievers by surprise. This is obvious from the context, even to post-tribs, and it also harmonizes with Luke 17 where, as you recall, the flood represented Christ's return after the tribulation rather than the tribulation itself.

Question two, Noah. If the flood victims represent unbelievers during the tribulation, then who does Noah represent? Believers during the tribulation. This accords with Luke 17 where Noah represents tribulation saints.


Flood victims represent tribulation unbelievers
Noah represents tribulation saints

​

Question three, the stumper. Why does Jesus compare the disciples to the flood victims instead of to Noah? It doesn't fit. Are the disciples unbelievers? Will they be destroyed? Then why are they compared to the flood victims? Why not compare them to Noah? If Noah represents tribulation saints, then surely the disciples ought to be compared to Noah if the disciples represent tribulation saints. How do the disciples fit into the picture? Which category do they fall into?

Into which category will you put the disciples?​

Flood victims
Unbelievers
Noah
Tribulation saints

​

Quite a stumper, isn't it? Neither category seems to fit. The disciples don't fall into the category of unbelievers. Yet Jesus refrains from putting them into the category of Noah.
The solution is quite simple. The disciples form a third category namely, church saints who will be raptured before the tribulation. Instantly the riddle dissolves. Now, instead of forcing the interpretation where it doesn't fit, the interpretation fits as naturally as a baby in a cradle.
Watch.

Surprised, But Safe. The disciples are like flood victims in one respect—they are surprised. The disciples are like Noah in another respect—they are safe. The disciples are unlike the flood victims, because the flood victims are unbelievers. The disciples are unlike Noah, because Noah knew the day the catastrophe would come (Genesis 7:4).
Therefore the disciples have similarities and dissimilarities to both groups, but they fit perfectly a third group, namely church saints who are surprised but safe. This diagram shows how the characteristics of all three groups easily fall into place without forcing one word of Scripture:

The arrows depict the destination of each group. Looking at the diagram you can see how easily the disciples fit into the category of church saints, and they cannot be stuffed into either of the other two categories, even with a very large shoehorn.
Why did Jesus compare the disciples to the flood victims instead of to Noah? Because Jesus wanted to illustrate surprise, and Noah was not surprised. Noah knew the day, just as tribulation saints will know the day. We will not know, and so, believe it or not, in one respect we are like unbelievers—we both will be surprised. Yes, unbelievers will be surprised because they will be deceived by antichrist and they will not be counting the days.
Because Jesus is coming in surprise for the church, He told us to "watch" (verse 42). "Watch" is in the present tense and the intended sense is, "Be continually watching now." This kind of command has force under pre-tribulationism, but a post-trib could more easily be tempted to say to himself, "I will not watch now; I will wait until the tribulation begins, to start watching." Watching now is confirmed by the reason for watching, "for ye know not what hour..." This implies that it could be any day now rather than implying that it could not yet be any of these days.
Why did Jesus not compare the disciples to Noah? We would expect Him to make the comparison to Noah, because Noah was saved and protected from wrath, but Jesus could not make the comparison to him because Noah knew seven days ahead of time, and Jesus was illustrating surprise. If the prophecy were single in viewpoint, then the disciples would have been compared to Noah, for church saints and tribulation saints would be one and the same and so the comparison would be made between the two. But since there are two different saved groups (one knowing and one not knowing) and since there are two different groups not knowing (one saved and one not saved), Jesus is giving the prophecy from a double viewpoint. The double viewpoint illuminates the comparisons and apparent contradictions, while the single viewpoint is stuck with disjointed comparisons and insoluble contradictions. How many times have we all read this passage before, not noticing the inconsistency that arises from the single viewpoint?
Am I trying to make all the details fit too perfectly? Maybe the illustration of Noah wasn't meant to fit like a hand in a glove. After all, this is a historical illustration and there aren't that many historical illustrations that Jesus could choose from. Even though He was the Master Teacher, maybe He couldn't think of a perfectly appropriate illustration and this was the best He could come up with.
With a historical illustration maybe He would have a limited repertoire to choose from, but what about the next illustration? It is not a historical illustration—it is one that Jesus designed from scratch so that it would suit His purpose to a tee. Why does it follow the same pattern as the Noah illustration? In fact Jesus gives not just one illustration, nor two illustrations, but three illustrations, and they all follow the same pattern.

THE RIDDLE OF THE GOODMAN

But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh (Matthew 24:43–44).​

Ready for another quiz? A couple of easy questions first. Jesus said if the goodman had known he would have watched. This implies that if the goodman did not know he would not have watched. We have, therefore, two hypothetical goodmen.


Goodman #1
knows and watches
Goodman #2
knows not and watches not

​

First question, who does goodman number one represent? What end-time group knows and watches? Tribulation saints.
Second question, who does goodman number two represent? What end-time group knows not and watches not? Unbelievers.
Now for the stumper. Which goodman are you? Stop reading for a minute and ponder it.
Are you goodman number one? Surely you are watching for the Lord's return, but do you know the hour? No, you can't be goodman number one.
Are you goodman number two? Surely you know not the hour, but are you not watching? No, you can't be goodman number two.
What's the solution to the riddle? You are neither. You form a third category, namely church saints who know not the hour, yet watch.


Goodman #1
knows and watches
tribulation saints
Goodman #2
knows not and watches not
unbelievers
Disciples
know not and watch
church saints

​

Or, to diagram it another way:

The three groups follow the same pattern as the Noah illustration. Coincidence? Or design?
To our delight the double-reference interpretation dissolves the riddles and solves the problem of the known day versus the unknown day. With two groups of redeemed people in mind, the apparent contradiction between the known day and the unknown day disappears, and the incongruities within Matthew 24 vanish. "Be ye (church saints) also (like tribulation saints) ready." If tribulation saints are ready because they know, then how much more should we constantly be ready because we do not know.
Sometimes people try to talk me out of the double-reference interpretation of Matthew 24. Somehow they think that this is a fanciful interpretation with no foundation in the text. Well, just look at the text and see what it says. According to verse 43, why does the goodman watch? Because he knows. According to verse 44, why do the disciples watch? Because they know not. The text gives two opposite reasons for watching! How can this be? Even if the unknown day had not conflict with Daniel and Revelation, we would still face this discrepancy within the illustration itself. It makes no sense unless there are two redeemed groups who watch for opposite reasons. All I am doing is noticing what is right there in the text, and all I am asking of my brothers and sisters in Christ is that they notice what is right there in the text.