ex pre-tribulation rapture Christians?

[Vic C.]

Dear David, The Greek of Rev. 3:10, tereso ek, means "keep thee in the hour of trial", which has "keep in" in the NAB Bible, if memory serves me well. It does not mean to deliver from the world, but from within the time of trial. It is the same Greek verb that our Lord God and Saviour Jesus Christ uses in John chapter 17, when He says, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil one." It can mean "keep from" or "keep in", depending on the context. It means a deliverance, but it depends on HOW God chooses to deliver. God can deliver His Church IN the time of great tribulation to come, and to keep them "from" the Antichrist, not to take them out of the world (cf. St. John 17:15). Christ does not pray to take His people out of the world, but to keep them from all evil. In Erie PA Scott H.

I have to agree with this. I have shown several times, somewhere in the End Times forum, that "tereo" (the word for "keep" in Rev. 3:10) suggests the idea of protection, not removal.


Strangely enough, lol, I agree with your assessment that Rev. was written pre-70A.D.; maybe as early as 60-61.

Archeological evidence shows that the city and buildings of Laodicea were destroyed by an earthquake in the early 60s and couldn't have been rebuilt earlier than 120 AD. (this is because the orders given to rebuild the city were given by a Roman leader who wasn't born until 120 AD, lol)

 

[David505]

I have to agree with this. I have shown several times, somewhere in the End Times forum, that "tereo" (the word for "keep" in Rev. 3:10) suggests the idea of protection, not removal.


Strangely enough, lol, I agree with your assessment that Rev. was written pre-70A.D.; maybe as early as 60-61.

Archeological evidence shows that the city and buildings of Laodicea were destroyed by an earthquake in the early 60s and couldn't have been rebuilt earlier than 120 AD. (this is because the orders given to rebuild the city were given by a Roman leader who wasn't born until 120 AD, lol)

Hi Vic C.,

Long time no talk to. Nice to hear from you.

I agree with your assessment of tereso in terms of protection or safeguarding. I think (since I'm not a Greek expert) our question concerns tereso ek; whether this involves protection within a time / arena of trial, or without, as separation / exit from such a time. Here's another reference:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[David505]

Well add in all who were raised and seen in the city and all who were raised by the diciples. There is no record of the number. I think by now you've remembered that scripture ,though silent wrt the majority, tells us excactly when ol Laz will be raised. But it shouldnt need to be said Dave, that the resurrection of Christ is unique in history , unless you would care to make a case that Laz and the others ascended in to heaven and are now glorified in the same way our Lord is? Then obvousl;y there is a scriptural account that proves the nature of Chirst's resurrection is vastly different from that of your example. Or Christ is not the Firstfruits of the resurrection And this renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void? No, it has no effect on it at all. You must redifine what Jesus said or ignore it. Or better yet, center your view in what Jesus said.
No one argues the importance of 'Ye must be born-again' . Yet every day real believieing christains give no consideration, and some work to avoid, the plain simple rendering our Lord gave us ,four times in a row.

Thanks, again, although I'm not getting the "renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void" remark.

We know resurrections transpired in advance of 'the last day' including Christ's resurrection, which we understand to have been unique, and thereby regard Christ as "the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (Col 1:1)." That being the case, rapture and resurrection as material transformation, (also in advance of 'the last day') in no wise diminishes Christ's preeminence. Paul is quite clear:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15: 51,52

Just curious--how do you define 'the last day'?

 

[Hitch]

Thanks, again, although I'm not getting the "renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void" remark.

We know resurrections transpired in advance of 'the last day' including Christ's resurrection, which we understand to have been unique, and thereby regard Christ as "the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence (Col 1:1)." That being the case, rapture and resurrection as material transformation, (also in advance of 'the last day') in no wise diminishes Christ's preeminence. Paul is quite clear:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15: 51,52

I cant grasp your point here

Just curious--how do you define 'the last day'?

In the same unqualified manner Jesus used it;


Last

1. Being, coming, or placed after all others; final: .
2. Being the only one left:



Day

1. The period of light between dawn and nightfall; the interval from sunrise to sunset.
2. a. The 24-hour period during which the earth completes one rotation on its axis.


In answer to;

Thanks, again, although I'm not getting the "renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void" remark.

Dave;

Matthew does not employ the phrase ‘Wrath of God’ but compares the wrath to the destructive potential of the Great Flood. As for the reason, I’d cite the following:

And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 11:18

And this renders the personally spoken declaration of Jesus void? No, it has no effect on it at all. You must redifine what Jesus said or ignore it. Or better yet, center your view in what Jesus said.
No one argues the importance of 'Ye must be born-again' . Yet every day real believieing christains give no consideration, and some work to avoid, the plain simple rendering our Lord gave us ,four times in a row.


Since our Lord's declaration of the resurrection coming at the last day was already central to the exchange I had not and and still cant come up with any point to what you posted.

H

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic C.,

Long time no talk to. Nice to hear from you.

I agree with your assessment of tereso in terms of protection or safeguarding. I think (since I'm not a Greek expert) our question concerns tereso ek; whether this involves protection within a time / arena of trial, or without, as separation / exit from such a time. Here's another reference:

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

Hey David. :waving

Since we're both "fond" of Van Kampen, here is an outtake from his book, The Sign:

The Sign - Google Books

 

[Vic C.]

... Just curious--how do you define 'the last day'?

In researching and studying, I ran across the idea that "last day" and "last days" are not the same thing.

Just food for thought.

 

[David505]

Hey David. :waving

Since we're both "fond" of Van Kampen, here is an outtake from his book, The Sign:

The Sign - Google Books

I'm actually glad you shared that with me. You may have noticed that when I refer to VanKampen and Rosenthal, I usually add that I don't agree with all of their assessments.

 

[David505]

In researching and studying, I ran across the idea that "last day" and last days" are not the same thing.

Just food for thought.

That's right, and lots of different opinions. In a few words, how would you distinguish 'last day' from 'last days'?

 

[Hitch]

That's right, and lots of different opinions. In a few words, how would you distinguish 'last day' from 'last days'?

Kinda like God from gods.

 

[Vic C.]

That's right, and lots of different opinions. In a few words, how would you distinguish 'last day' from 'last days'?

Well for starters, Jesus never used the words "last days". With Him, it was always "last day".

I distinguish between the singular and plural too. But since there is already a thread on last days, I won't go off topic and into detail. Besides, that thread reflects some of what I believe about the term, "last days".

 

[Vic C.]

Kinda like God from gods.

Yeah, that's good. There is one last day, but several last days.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Second Time !

Heb 9:28

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those erroneously teaching a pretribulation rapture before the second coming, they are contending for a second coming before the second coming. No matter how one attempts to explain it, if Christ comes again in the clouds, to catch up His Bride, His Church, and then returns again up to seven years later, this results into Two separate second comings, Two " The Second Time" this is the spirit error.

 

[pretrib]

The Second Time !

Heb 9:28

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Those erroneously teaching a pretribulation rapture before the second coming, they are contending for a second coming before the second coming. No matter how one attempts to explain it, if Christ comes again in the clouds, to catch up His Bride, His Church, and then returns again up to seven years later, this results into Two separate second comings, Two " The Second Time" this is the spirit error.

Obviously,..you are claiming that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week........So allow me to ask you a question:

Are the Bride saved by Grace today,...and will the Bride be saved by grace during Daniels 70th week?

 

[jasoncran]

Obviously,..you are claiming that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week........So allow me to ask you a question:

Are the Bride saved by Grace today,...and will the Bride be saved by grace during Daniels 70th week?

what makes the bride so special that those in the tribulation not a member of Gods church. surely you realise that many a gentiles die in your version of the trib period(this is why started not buying the seven yr period)?

if many a gentiles die who then teaches them the word of God? God never said that his church wouldnt suffer for him. why teach that we will avoid the wrath of man and or the devil?

and the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them. hmm that implies he killed them. then theres those saints beheaded in hevean under the alter crying out to God for justice.

the current population of the jews is less then 5% of the world. unless jews breed like jack rabbits its going to be mainly gentiles saved in your version of the tribulation.

just so you know. i am pre wrath, and pre millenial. the 70th week allows the saved after the rapture to know to the day when the lords return thus violating the very statement by the lord.. no man knoweth the hour.

 

[pretrib]

what makes the bride so special that those in the tribulation not a member of Gods church. surely you realise that many a gentiles die in your version of the trib period(this is why started not buying the seven yr period)?

if many a gentiles die who then teaches them the word of God? God never said that his church wouldnt suffer for him. why teach that we will avoid the wrath of man and or the devil?

and the dragon made war with the saints and overcame them. hmm that implies he killed them. then theres those saints beheaded in hevean under the alter crying out to God for justice.

the current population of the jews is less then 5% of the world. unless jews breed like jack rabbits its going to be mainly gentiles saved in your version of the tribulation.

just so you know. i am pre wrath, and pre millenial. the 70th week allows the saved after the rapture to know to the day when the lords return thus violating the very statement by the lord.. no man knoweth the hour.

I could answer your questions easily,..but take notice,..I originally asked the following question in which no one has attempted to answer yet.

Obviously,..you are claiming that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week........So allow me to ask you a question:

Are the Bride saved by Grace today,...and will the Bride be saved by grace during Daniels 70th week?

 

[jasoncran]

I could answer your questions easily,..but take notice,..I originally asked the following question in which no one has attempted to answer yet.

Obviously,..you are claiming that the Bride would enter Daniels 70th week........So allow me to ask you a question:

Are the Bride saved by Grace today,...and will the Bride be saved by grace during Daniels 70th week?

of course. that is the only way to come to salvation.

easily really? i was a pre-tribber for yrs. some hear such as hitch and reba and others who challenged me on this forced me to look at more closely.

in the original schofield/darby version the jews didnt need christ to get to heaven! that isnt taught today now is it?


why would jesus take his church from the world in the time of trouble when men who will have to die to get the word out? will they just read the bible and have an idea of what it means? surely they will be doing what the early church did then and what will be the difference? nothing the saints will be just as saved.

name on christian of today that is raptured before his death at the hands of a muslim,hindu or buddhist.

all they that shall live Godly lives shall suffer.

now let me ask you this why do see the need for the church to be out of the way when the anti-christ arrives?

he that is restraineth is removed cant be the holy ghost as he is the one who convincts men of sin and also the church doesnt fit that bill all that well as look around in the west. the church cant even stop abortion or other sins.

so i believe the holy spirit lets the ac come in to play while the church is still on the earth. yes we do some restraining but not much. look at how large the early church is its day prior to constantine,and in perscuted lands.

the church grows in these times. our physical safety is in Gods hands. see job and aslo the billions of martyrs for christ.

 

[pretrib]

of course. that is the only way to come to salvation.

easily really? i was a pre-tribber for yrs. some hear such as hitch and reba and others who challenged me on this forced me to look at more closely.

in the original schofield/darby version the jews didnt need christ to get to heaven! that isnt taught today now is it?


why would jesus take his church from the world in the time of trouble when men who will have to die to get the word out? will they just read the bible and have an idea of what it means? surely they will be doing what the early church did then and what will be the difference? nothing the saints will be just as saved.

name on christian of today that is raptured before his death at the hands of a muslim,hindu or buddhist.

all they that shall live Godly lives shall suffer.

now let me ask you this why do see the need for the church to be out of the way when the anti-christ arrives?

he that is restraineth is removed cant be the holy ghost as he is the one who convincts men of sin and also the church doesnt fit that bill all that well as look around in the west. the church cant even stop abortion or other sins.

so i believe the holy spirit lets the ac come in to play while the church is still on the earth. yes we do some restraining but not much. look at how large the early church is its day prior to constantine,and in perscuted lands.

the church grows in these times. our physical safety is in Gods hands. see job and aslo the billions of martyrs for christ.

From reading all the things you mentioned,..it seems you blow things out of porportion somewhat.
But first things first:

You Quote:
of course. that is the only way to come to salvation.

My Reply:
When the pre-trib rapture comes to pass,..the Age of grace will have come to an end also.
Those that come to Christ during Daniels 70th week are saved if they endure unto the end,..their faith will have to be evidenced by thier works continually either as a survivor or as a martyred saint.

The following is the definition of Grace,..in which is not evident in Daniels 70th week.
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

It is obvious that the Bride who is saved by grace through faith, is not present in Daniels 70th week.

 

[jasoncran]

From reading all the things you mentioned,..it seems you blow things out of porportion somewhat.
But first things first:

You Quote:
of course. that is the only way to come to salvation.

My Reply:
When the pre-trib rapture comes to pass,..the Age of grace will have come to an end also.
Those that come to Christ during Daniels 70th week are saved if they endure unto the end,..their faith will have to be evidenced by thier works continually either as a survivor or as a martyred saint.

The following is the definition of Grace,..in which is not evident in Daniels 70th week.
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

It is obvious that the Bride who is saved by grace through faith, is not present in Daniels 70th week.

uh, no, so then by the law of the torah will men be saved? think about how can a man save theres a levitical world wide order with the temple intact and men traveling to that temple to offer oblations for theirs ever make it.

so that would mean the jews and judaism is the way to heaven. ok. are you familiar with the idea of antiochius ephineses the IV? that is in reference to him and the 70th week was fulfilled with the death of the lord on the cross.

so if the jews are the only way in the seven yr period that places your doctrine on heresy. i dont even hear that in the pre-trib circles anymore.i used to oh say 10 yrs ago give or take a few yrs. modern judaism denies the messiah and that means the jews dont have it right.

let me ask you this why in the world would God say grace is done and yet still give men space to repent? and even say to the jews that the law is fulfilled in the man jesus christ.

wow, man you have just supported what reba and hitch have said all along. please critically think your position and compare the bible verses with the bible verses.

the jew wont come to christ till they say blessed is he comes in the name of the lord and that is when the final battle for jerusalem occurs. another problem is the 144,000. what are they doing? are they performing sacrifices or witnessing to the world? and how are they telling the world about christ and his works? remember grace is gone in your view . so the only to god is by works.

 

[pretrib]

uh, no, so then by the law of the torah will men be saved? think about how can a man save theres a levitical world wide order with the temple intact and men traveling to that temple to offer oblations for theirs ever make it.

so that would mean the jews and judaism is the way to heaven. ok. are you familiar with the idea of antiochius ephineses the IV? that is in reference to him and the 70th week was fulfilled with the death of the lord on the cross.

so if the jews are the only way in the seven yr period that places your doctrine on heresy. i dont even hear that in the pre-trib circles anymore.i used to oh say 10 yrs ago give or take a few yrs. modern judaism denies the messiah and that means the jews dont have it right.

let me ask you this why in the world would God say grace is done and yet still give men space to repent? and even say to the jews that the law is fulfilled in the man jesus christ.

wow, man you have just supported what reba and hitch have said all along. please critically think your position and compare the bible verses with the bible verses.

the jew wont come to christ till they say blessed is he comes in the name of the lord and that is when the final battle for jerusalem occurs. another problem is the 144,000. what are they doing? are they performing sacrifices or witnessing to the world? and how are they telling the world about christ and his works? remember grace is gone in your view . so the only to god is by works.

No disrespect intended,...But it seems that you are attempting to get me to go into a multiple different dirrections with all your questions ...In which I can easily answer,.....But!...I do have a way of cutting through all the chase.

Those that come to Christ during Daniels 70th week are saved if they endure unto the end,..their faith will have to be evidenced by thier works continually either as a survivor or as a martyred saint.

Today we are saved by grace through faith alone and our works is a result of our faith........It's like in comparison,...We go to church on Sundays,.not because we have to,..but because we want to out of the Love in our heart for the Lord and of how greatful we are that He saved us.

But in daniels 70th week,...Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.


This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

During Daniels 70th week ..salvation is conditional
Today ..prior to the pre-trib rapture,..we are saved by Grace
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

 

[Hitch]

No disrespect intended,...But it seems that you are attempting to get me to go into a multiple different dirrections with all your questions ...In which I can easily answer,.....But!...I do have a way of cutting through all the chase.

Those that come to Christ during Daniels 70th week are saved if they endure unto the end,..their faith will have to be evidenced by thier works continually either as a survivor or as a martyred saint.

Today we are saved by grace through faith alone and our works is a result of our faith........It's like in comparison,...We go to church on Sundays,.not because we have to,..but because we want to out of the Love in our heart for the Lord and of how greatful we are that He saved us.

But in daniels 70th week,...Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end(In his Faith), the same shall be saved.


This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

During Daniels 70th week ..salvation is conditional
Today ..prior to the pre-trib rapture,..we are saved by Grace
Definition: Grace is God's unmerited favor. It is kindness from God we don't deserve. There is nothing we have done, nor we can ever do to earn this favor. It is a gift from God. Grace is divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration (rebirth) or sanctification; a virtue coming from God; a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine favor. A preacher once explained grace to me with this acronym:
God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Examples:
It is by grace you were saved through faith, and not of yourself.

Probably the most serious trouble with 'pre-trib' is that it requires "another Gospel".