Fate... Free Will vs Predestination

[Christ the King]

This is a topic that I could never comprehend and I suspect humans don't have the capacity to fully understand it.
I've listened to different people and theologians give their opinions and theories but none of them sound convincing.

Let's start by defining the truths.
1/ The bible teaches us that we have free will. (the extent of that is probably debatable)
2/ God is omniscient. He knows what we are going to do. (the extent of that is debatable i think)
3/ Many bible verses confirm predestination (the extent of that is also debatable I think)

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

I recall Jesus predicting Peters 3 denials when Peter hadn't even thought of it yet. So it seems God knows before we even consider it.

What exactly is predestined? Is it our fate after death? Is it every little think we say, eat and do? Or somewhere in between?

A quick look and I noticed there are a wide range of theories on this and many theologians who have attempted to crack the puzzle.

So what do u think? Do u have a theory on how God's omniscience can combine with free will and predestination?

Or do u give up like me and just say
"God. Your glory and wonder is beyond the capability of my mind to comprehend. And so i leave my faith in You Lord"

 

[Tessa]

We are told that God knew us before we were even one. I think we have free will. Our circumstances may not always be of our choosing but how we deal with it is, and God knows already what we will do.He knows us, He knows our heart and how we think, better than we know ourselves.
God knows what we will choose with our free will.
But I am no theologian. God's will be done.

 

[JLB]

So how can we have free will when God has a predestined path for us and knows what we are going to do?

God has a plan for our lives, and it is good.

We have the ability to choose to do His will or not.



Here is a glimpse from the Bible about the destiny the Lord had for His Apostles.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas has the same predestined life that the other 11 had.


Judas chose his own way.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Let's start by defining the truths.

Amen. Great place to start.


Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
John 3:3


See in this verse is an amazing word.


See - eidō - Strongs 1492

1. to see
   1. to perceive with the eyes
   2. to perceive by any of the senses
   3. to perceive, notice, discern, discover
   4. to see
      1. i.e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything
      2. to pay attention, observe
      3. to see about something
         1. i.e. to ascertain what must be done about it
      4. to inspect, examine
      5. to look at, behold
   5. to experience any state or condition
   6. to see i.e. have an interview with, to visit
2. to know
   1. to know of anything
   2. to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive
      1. of any fact
      2. the force and meaning of something which has definite meaning
      3. to know how, to be skilled in
   3. to have regard for one, cherish, pay attention to (1Th. 5:12)

God has a destiny for His people.

To have the ability to understand and thereby involved in this destiny, this predestined life He has for us, we must first be born again by the Spirit.




JLB

 

[WIP]

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.
But God already knew I would eat the T bone steak before I even started to think about it.
Or did he only know when I had decided to eat the T bone?

Knowing something and causing something are two different things. When my children were born I knew they would do things that would get them into trouble now and then. When it happened, my knowing it ahead of time didn't cause it to happen.

 

[Christ the King]

Knowing something and causing something are two different things. When my children were born I knew they would do things that would get them into trouble now and then. When it happened, my knowing it ahead of time didn't cause it to happen.

Im don't think im saying God is causing things to happen.
Im asking how we can have free will when our lives are already predestined?

 

[Christ the King]

God has a plan for our lives, and it is good.

We have the ability to choose to do His will or not.

Judas has the same predestined life that the other 11 had.

Judas chose his own way

But JLB i think your implying that a person can choose to not go to God's plan.
This would cause God's predestination for your life to be false along with his omniscience

Or i guess you could say God's predestination for you live can be destroyed by your free will. His omniscience is something else and says that God knew you would turn away.

 

[OzSpen]

God has a plan for our lives, and it is good.

We have the ability to choose to do His will or not.



Here is a glimpse from the Bible about the destiny the Lord had for His Apostles.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-19

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas has the same predestined life that the other 11 had.

Judas chose his own way.

JLB

JLB,

I think you are referring to Matt 19:28-29, which in the ESV reads:

'Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life'.​

Oz

 

[JLB]

But JLB i think your implying that a person can choose to not go to God's plan.
This would cause God's predestination for your life to be false along with his omniscience

Or i guess you could say God's predestination for you live can be destroyed by your free will. His omniscience is something else and says that God knew you would turn away.

Yes. People can choose to not go with God’s plan.


JLB

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I think you are referring to Matt 19:28-29, which in the ESV reads:

'Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life'.​

Oz

Yes sir.

 

[atpollard]

Let's say I have 20 options what I will eat for dinner. It feels like I have free will.

You CAN eat anything you are physically ably to get your hands on for dinner. (You cannot eat Pufferfish and Truffles if you have no access to them).

What you WILL eat for supper is decided by external circumstances and your desires. (If you want a broiled steak, but the broiler is broken, then you have to choose something else that you want).

[Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

 

[JLB]

You CAN eat anything you are physically ably to get your hands on for dinner. (You cannot eat Pufferfish and Truffles if you have no access to them).

What you WILL eat for supper is decided by external circumstances and your desires. (If you want a broiled steak, but the broiler is broken, then you have to choose something else that you want).

[Proverbs 21:1 NASB] 1 The king's heart is [like] channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.

Concerning freewill vs predestination, do you see a conflict with the two?


Concerning the example I gave with Judas, and His predestination to reign and rule with Christ and the other 11;
Did you agree or disagree?


God has a plan for our lives, and it is good.

We have the ability to choose to do His will or not.



Here is a glimpse from the Bible about the destiny the Lord had for His Apostles.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Judas has the same predestined life that the other 11 had.


Judas chose his own way.




JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

King David is another example of free will versus God's intervention. David took another man's wife and in trying to hide what he'd done sent the man to his death in a battle against an enemy. This was David's choice and his actions. However God's response to David through the prophet Nathan, shows that God is truely in comand, even though we have the free will in our actions that we choose. This happens in 2 Samual 12:1-24.

However after the initial punishment of losing the child that was born between David and the other woman, there was still the predicted outcome that God gave David, which would come about through his other sons. One son kills another (because of what the other did to their sister) and then he flees to another kingdom. Then later that son comes back and successfully takes Israel from David as a leader. All of this is the fulfillment of the judgement God gave David in 2 Samual 14. Yet all of also happened out of the choices of David's kids. It was their free will that lead to their own bad choices.

This example changes the topic away from just our free will versus God's foresight and passively knowing what will come from our choices, to God having a direct influence as part of His judgment on David. Yet sill it all came through by the choices David's sons acted on in their own free will.

My conclusion: God is in control and He is all knowing; even with our ability to make our own choices, God is sovereign. But our choices are still our own. You can't deny any choice you make as your own choice. We have a free will.

 

[for_his_glory]

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).

Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (cf. Eph. 3:10-11).

God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

 

[JLB]

Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other.

Agreed.

 

[JLB]

King David is another example of free will versus God's intervention. David took another man's wife and in trying to hide what he'd done sent the man to his death in a battle against an enemy. This was David's choice and his actions. However God's response to David through the prophet Nathan, shows that God is truely in comand, even though we have the free will in our actions that we choose. This happens in 2 Samual 12:1-24.

However after the initial punishment of losing the child that was born between David and the other woman, there was still the predicted outcome that God gave David, which would come about through his other sons. One son kills another (because of what the other did to their sister) and then he flees to another kingdom. Then later that son comes back and successfully takes Israel from David as a leader. All of this is the fulfillment of the judgement God gave David in 2 Samual 14. Yet all of also happened out of the choices of David's kids. It was their free will that lead to their own bad choices.

This example changes the topic away from just our free will versus God's foresight and passively knowing what will come from our choices, to God having a direct influence as part of His judgment on David. Yet sill it all came through by the choices David's sons acted on in their own free will.

My conclusion: God is in control and He is all knowing; even with our ability to make our own choices, God is sovereign. But our choices are still our own. You can't deny any choice you make as your own choice. We have a free will.

Amen. David’s ability to choose, did not nullify God’s predetermine outcome of the line that the Messiah would come from.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Sampson is a great case study in this.
Chosen before he was born.
His tasks laid out before he was born.
He rebelled.
He complied...
He rebelled.
He humbled himself and complied.

God is good and only has our best interests at heart.

 

[atpollard]

Concerning freewill vs predestination, do you see a conflict with the two?

Not with how I define “free will”, but with how some people define “free will”. There are also some people who define “Predestination” as “mindless robotic enslavement” but that is their problem and not mine. Scripture defines Predestination by the original Greek word chosen and the surrounding scriptural context. “Free will”, as an exact expression, only appears once in Scripture ... speaking of the free will of Philemon for Onesimus and not of the relationship God and man ... leaving more room for individual personal interpretation.

 

[atpollard]

Concerning the example I gave with Judas, and His predestination to reign and rule with Christ and the other 11;
Did you agree or disagree?

Disagree.

 

[JLB]

Disagree.

Ok. Fair enough.


So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

• when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So you disagree that Judas was predestined to reign with and the other 11, even though the Lord said specifically “you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones”.


Wasn’t Jesus speaking to the 12 Apostles?



JLB