For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[unred typo]

Wrong oh one who slants his understanding without dividing the truth of the Word of God rightly, and slants portions of Scripture without regarding the whole council of God's Word. Romans 8:1 speaks according to your understanding if it is the only Scripture that we are to follow. Fortunately, God is a whole lot smarter than that, and He has given us his whole truth concerning this matter in the following Scripture of Romans 8, not to mention in His entire Word. Let us look at this according to God's "Slant": There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1
In the subsequent verses of Romans 8 we find that those who are born again are not of flesh but are of the Spirit. Those who have been born again are no longer of the flesh, but are of the Spirit. Those that have been born of God, born again, have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, and the flesh is dead in Christ.

I would love to read the entire Word with you, Solo. I have highlighted God’s slant on this passage for you.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:1-10

The distinction placed by Paul here is between those who walk in the Spirit and those that don‘t. Walking in the Spirit is living according to the teachings of Christ. Christ taught love, forgiveness, humility, charity, faith and other ‘strange’ things like turning the other cheek and not seeking wealth and fame here on earth. Those who are in the flesh, mind the things of the flesh. That means they disregard the message that Jesus brought and lust after wealth and fame and things to satisfy the cravings of their human bodies, i.e. illicit sex, money, fancy cars, fancy clothes, fancy houses, etc. and when they are wronged, they seek revenge and go for the jugular. Their actions and lifestyle choices are what distinguish them from the people who “walk after the Spirit.â€Â

When one understands the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION, then one can understand the entire Word of God. Paul has written that those who have the FREE GIFT are no longer condemned, but are righteous (Justified) in Christ Jesus.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. Romans 5:16
By ONE OFFENSE, condemnation came upon ALL men, but by the righteousness of JESUS CHRIST (not the righteousness of man), the FREE GIFT of JUSTIFICATION came and removed the condemnation.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 5:18

The free gift is not the justification but the blood of Christ. The gift of the blood is unto justification. Those who repent of their sin and follow Christ are justified by the gift of the blood. The blood is the gift. Not justification, not eternal life, not peace with God, but the blood itself, through which all these things are made possible. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin and only Christ’s perfectly sinless blood was sufficient for this.

Who are under condemnation? Those who have been born of God and are born again residing in Christ Jesus, or those who have not been born of God, and are NOT born again, and are apart from Christ Jesus? Let us let Jesus tell us:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, F7 he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. F8 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:3-21
Jesus is plain that those who are born of the Spirit are not condemned but those who are not born of the Spirit are condemned.

No, Solo, Jesus is plain that those who do truth are those who come to the light and are not condemned with the rest of the world. Doing truth is walking in the light of God’s word and living according to the principles that Jesus taught of love, forgiveness, mercy, humility, etc. This is what believing in Christ is, Solo. Following Christ’s teaching and accepting what he taught as the truth.

Those who are born of the Spirit, born again are not condemned as the unbelieving world, but are instead chastized:
But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:32

This is true. Let’s be certain of who those “born again†ones are, though. Those who are born of God are those who have reached a higher level of commitment and God has brought to a place where his Holy Spirit has united with their spirit and they are actually born again as children of God. This is not referring to those people who in a single moment of conviction, walk down front and “accept Jesus as their savior.†Too many think they ‘have arrived’ when they have only taken one step in the right direction.
The true ’born again’ children of God are those “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.†John 1:13

Noah was secure when he was in the ark. What brought Noah to build the ark was his fear of the Lord. Noah's faith led him to build the ark as he feared God. When Noah was in the ark he was no longer afraid, as he knew that he was IN GOD'S ARK. Those who are born of the Spirit are driven to God through the fear of God. The beginning of knowledge is the fear of God. Once one is born of the Spirit, one is now IN CHRIST, the SALVATION OF GOD.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:6-7

Ah, you have ended with one of my favorite passages. Noah was not living in the flesh, partying with the world and expecting God to deliver him from the flood, was he? He wasn’t boasting that God’s salvation was going to protect him from drowning, was he? He believed in God and followed what God told him to do in order to be saved. Now we must move with fear and believe what Jesus taught us to do in order to be saved, and if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then, and only then, will the blood of Christ cleanse us from all sin. Check out 1 John 1:6-8 and you will see what slant God puts on this whole topic.

 

[Solo]

The first thing that Noah did after getting off of the ark was he got t-total drunk.

 

[unred typo]

The first thing that Noah did after getting off of the ark was he got t-total drunk.

I’m going to overlook the obvious fact that Noah was before the time when God’s grace was available to all flesh and Noah was pre-law, pre-Abraham, and pre-Christ.

I’m not going to judge his motives for getting drunk but I suspect that Noah didn‘t throw a wild party and indulge in wine, women and song, Solo. It was not a wise decision. The results were devastating to his family and his relationship to his son. How can poor Noah, who was faithful to follow God, now be rid of this indiscretion? Perhaps he did ask the rhetorical question of Micah 6, “Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?†The answer is ‘no’.

Micah 6:8 tells us that God does not expect or require perfection from us: “He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?†God himself provided the sacrifice needed for our perfection, that our sins may be blotted out, when we confess and forsake them. It’s not the sacrifices and perfection that God wants of us but a heart that is tender toward others and gives out of love, not takes out of greed. A heart that accepts God’s ways and the willingness to repent when we have strayed.

The sin that God doesn’t forgive is the sin we don’t repent of, especially when we refuse to grant forgiveness and mercy to others. This is the attitude that Jesus said God would not forgive. Even then, I think God is not unjust to forget our labors of love and he will judge us by what we did in truth and not by how we failed. I believe God is fair and merciful and sometimes when we are suffering the most, God is working to change those hard hearts and bring us to that place where we can forgive and love as we were forgiven and loved by God.

 

[Vic C.]

I’m going to overlook the obvious fact that Noah was before the time when God’s grace was available to all flesh and Noah was pre-law, pre-Abraham, and pre-Christ.

If one studies a bit of Biblical Theology, one would see through revelation of God, that His Grace has been available since the Fall.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[AVBunyan]

The sin that God doesn’t forgive is the sin we don’t repent of,

As a saint - my forgiveness was settled at Calvary - God does not forgive me based upon my great repentance! God has already forgiven me of all my past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary.

if you are counting on your repentance for forgiveness you are not going to make it to glory because I can almost guarantee that you do not repent of every little sin you do.

Should I acknowledge my sin? Of course for this clears the conscience.
Should I repent and turn away from the sin? Of course.
Is by doing the above going to earn me favor with God? Of course not!

I'm always in God's favor - for I am in Christ.

Folks some of you here still cannot discern the difference between position and practical - You still think your practice (practical) determines your position/standing.

God bless

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,
You are a very intelligent young man, and your striving to know God's truth is a sign that is seldom seen in this world today. You have my respect. Please do not take my direct to the point posts as being anything personal against you.

Well thank you. Its just a little frustrating when you can't seem to get someone on the same page as you. I hope you are seeing the ideas I'm trying to get across.

My manner of posting has always been direct without much mercy. (Mercy and Giving are the two Spiritual gifts at the bottom of the list of gifts given me).

"Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;" (Colossians 3:12). Need I say more? :D

Now in answer to your recent post:

You do not ask questions. You go off on some tangent that you understand but is a path which is undefined to those who read your posts. They are very difficult to follow.

I'm sorry that they are difficult to follow, but I have a very large systematic theology, thus the whole council of God's word must relay similar ideas and themes and concerns for the edification of the saints. I hope I can relay my ideas better though.

Work on it. Know your audience and construct your argument in an organized pattern that can easily be outlined.

I'll try. Presently I will attempt to moderate on these issues.

The Word of God will take care of itself as you rightly divide the word of truth.

What is to say though that I am not rightly dividing it by bringing attention to the aspects of the fear of the Lord? It is clear what the Bible says on that issue:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28)

"Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences." (2 Corinthians 5:11)

Paul said the latter verse in the chapter immediately preceding his verse in 2 Corinthians 6:1 where he admonished "not to recieve the grace of God in vain". Why? Grace is what God relays to us day by day by his Spirit to keep us from sin, so that we can walk in the Spirit. This is the purpose of the Fear of the Lord: to be careful to recieve God's grace. The Bible clearly says this:

"Moses said to the people, 'Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may remain with you, so that you may not sin.'" (Exodus 20:20)

Observing this simply, without attempting to apply "recieving the grace of God in vain" in a manner to imply this means loosing Salvation (which it does not) then we see clearly that every time we sin as Christians we recieve that grace in vain (by failing to use it to overcome that sin) - because God is always willing and always offers that to you grace constantly: "Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you" (Isaiah 30:14). Not that at that point we will no longer recieve it, for we have an advocate if we sin (1 John 2:1), but we fail to do what we wish by the grace of God (Romans 7 - which speaks of Paul struggling with his flesh).

But just like how John says a Christian will not sin (yet he clarifies in 1 John 1:9) - meaning rather to live a habitual lifestyle of sin, so Paul means to tell us not to constantly recieve (live a lifestyle of recieving) the grace of God in vain: because grace is what keeps us from sinning, if we will recieve it (by the Fear of the Lord).

But for those who fail to grasp the grace in the outstreched hands of God, God will surely say of them in the end:

"All day long I have stretched out my hands to disobedient and rebellious people" (Isaiah 65:2)

You have twisted the Scripture of Galatians 2:21 by taking it completely out of context. You have declared your thoughts on the matter in the following statement:
However Paul makes it clear that you can nullify God's grace by receiving it in vain. This he makes clear when he admonishes his brothers and sisters in Christ: "We also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1).

If you mean that I erred in connecting the passage in Galatians with 2 Corinthians 6:1, then perhaps you have a point. But until that can be determined please just consider what I have said on 2 Corinthians 6:1 above about "recieving the grace of God in vain" each time we sin. We can talk in depth about these other things once we do that.

I would ask this kindly of you to consider my immediate concerns so that we can be on the same page.

Also, you have once again failed to answer one question that I have asked. It appears to me that you fail to answer because you do not know the answer. That is okay if you do not, as I will take the time to teach you.

Now for the first lesson. All sentences with the "?" at the end of the sentence is a question that requires an answer. If you do not know the answer to a question, then make the statement, "I do not know the answer to that question, but I will add it to my list of topics to study."

Here I will attempt to moderate and strike a fair compromise. You have questions which you would like answered, but I see that by answering them it will open a topic broader than the current one I am trying to focus on, and will ultimately lead to a different topic (thus derailing the present line of discussion). So I will try to be fair and ask you to answer my concerns here, staying on the topic I here present and have been discussing, with its concerns and questions - and I will PM you the answers to your questions to the best of my ability so that we can carry on these discussions simultaneously, and if they happen to over lap them all the better.

Does that sound like a fair compromise for our individual concerns to you?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[destiny]

As a saint - my forgiveness was settled at Calvary - God does not forgive me based upon my great repentance! God has already forgiven me of all my past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary.

if you are counting on your repentance for forgiveness you are not going to make it to glory because I can almost guarantee that you do not repent of every little sin you do.

Should I acknowledge my sin? Of course for this clears the conscience.
Should I repent and turn away from the sin? Of course.
Is by doing the above going to earn me favor with God? Of course not!

God bless

This is church doctrine and it makes light of sin and repentance. You better learn the difference between church doctrines and the (whole) counsel of God, bro. If you think you can live like hell and still be seated in the heavenlies then you're in for a surprise. We aren't talking about little slip-up sins here either.

Like a brother said, we shouldn't hold man's opinion as equal to or greater, in authority, than Scripture itself. Go to Gods word and seek His counsel about what he loves and hates. I hope people can discern those who trun Gods grace into a license to sin; if the above teaching doesn't do that then i'm a monkeys uncle.

 

[Solo]

This is church doctrine and it makes light of sin and repentance. You better learn the difference between church doctrines and the (whole) counsel of God, bro. If you think you can live like hell and still be seated in the heavenlies then you're in for a surprise. We aren't talking about little slip-up sins here either.

Like a brother said, we shouldn't hold man's opinion as equal to or greater, in authority, than Scripture itself. Go to Gods word and seek His counsel about what he loves and hates. I hope people can discern those who trun Gods grace into a license to sin; if the above teaching doesn't do that then i'm a monkeys uncle.

destiny,

Please answer the questions below so that I can understand your position on sin and the payment required for forgiveness.

Thanks,
Michael

• 
  What are the wages of "little slip-up sins"?
  
  What makes the requirements of one sin being paid with a different penalty than another sin?
  
  What part of Jesus payment of death on the cross is not adequate to pay the penalty of all sins no matter how insignificant or egregious the sin is?

 

[destiny]

destiny,

Please answer the questions below so that I can understand your position on sin and the payment required for forgiveness.

Thanks,
Michael

• 
  What are the wages of "little slip-up sins"?
  
  What makes the requirements of one sin being paid with a different penalty than another sin?
  
  What part of Jesus payment of death on the cross is not adequate to pay the penalty of all sins no matter how insignificant or egregious the sin is?

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

My question is: How has church doctrine re-aranged that one so that it doesn't mean what it boldly and (plainly) proclaims? Is it for the Jews only ... or is this "knowledge" not the same as true salvation?
I'm sure it's one or the other according to someones doctrine. Theres plenty more warnings too but it does no good to post them.
We are told in Revelation about who will not inherit the kingdom of God, and theres no disclaimer that adds "unless you are saved".
We can twist it and compartmentalize it all we want ...but the whole counsel of God is clear about how we are to walk before Him.

 

[AVBunyan]

This is church doctrine and it makes light of sin and repentance. You better learn the difference between church doctrines and the (whole) counsel of God, bro. If you think you can live like hell and still be seated in the heavenlies then you're in for a surprise. We aren't talking about little slip-up sins here either.

The reason I put you on Ignore was because I got wore out with you constantly accusing me of using doctrine as a license to sin - Show me where I believe eternal security means I can abuse grace or should want to - Show me where I believe it is ok to sin because I am secure in Christ. This "church" doctrine of mine is scriptural doctrine.

Because you are ignorant of true grace do not accuse me of preaching it is ok to live like "hell" because one is saved.

You askrd me what I believed my responsibility was to God and I did - what else do you need from me?

You have yet to present a clear post on justification.

OK Destiny - straight answer -
If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

Mods - this type of twisting of my posts wearies me. :x

 

[destiny]

The reason I put you on Ignore was because I got wore out with you constantly accusing me of using doctrine as a license to sin - Show me where I believe eternal security means I can abuse grace or should want to - Show me where I believe it is ok to sin because I am secure in Christ. This "church" doctrine of mine is scriptural doctrine.

Because you are ignorant of true grace do not accuse me of preaching it is ok to live like "hell" because one is saved.

You askrd me what I believed my responsibility was to God and I did - what else do you need from me?

You have yet to present a clear post on justification.

Mods - this type of twisting of my posts wearies me. :x

You said.."Should I repent and turn away from the sin? Of course.
Is by doing the above going to earn me favor with God? Of course not!"

Most babes in Christ (and adults too) are tender in their conscience toward the sin in their life. It's called the conviction of the Holy Spirit. His word tells us " “If we confess our sins he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousnessâ€Â. 1 John 1:9

What you said above goes against the written word and can cut in on someone elses race. Gal. 5:7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying ...?
You need to pay more attention to the (whole) counsel of God.

Thats all, i'm getting nowhere.

BTW If I bother you that much then send me back to ignoreland

 

[Solo]

Here I will attempt to moderate and strike a fair compromise. You have questions which you would like answered, but I see that by answering them it will open a topic broader than the current one I am trying to focus on, and will ultimately lead to a different topic (thus derailing the present line of discussion). So I will try to be fair and ask you to answer my concerns here, staying on the topic I here present and have been discussing, with its concerns and questions - and I will PM you the answers to your questions to the best of my ability so that we can carry on these discussions simultaneously, and if they happen to over lap them all the better.

Does that sound like a fair compromise for our individual concerns to you?

God Bless,

~Josh

Nevermind.

It is such a simple understanding of God's Salvation, and being justified, sanctified, and glorified to ones promised eternal life that it is quite impossible for me to change anyones mind on the matter.

Those who really want to know that truth will seek God for the answer.

 

[AVBunyan]

You said.."Should I repent and turn away from the sin? Of course.
Is by doing the above going to earn me favor with God? Of course not!"

Nothing you do gains favor with God - if you want to gain favor with God then get in his Son.

Again...

If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

 

[destiny]

Nothing you do gains favor with God - if you want to gain favor with God then get in his Son.

Again...

If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

This is about living a sinful lifestyle no differently than the world yet calling yourself saved and sanctified.

That^^, I wouldn't want to chance because it goes against what God instructs for His people in the word.

Good bye for now.

 

[AVBunyan]

This is about living a sinful lifestyle no differently than the world yet calling yourself saved and sanctified.

If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

 

[Drew]

If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

I think that the answer is "it depends". If you have lead a life of debauchery for 20 years after claiming to have been "saved", then I think your claim is probably false and you will not qualify for heaven.

If your works generally show that you are not a 'poseur' - that your conversion is real, then eating too much chocolate cake on the day you die (without repenting) or cheating your employer by bringing a pencil home on the day you die (and not repenting) would not bar you from heaven.

Some will argue that the absence of a clear specification of where that line is leaves us with too much uncertainty. Well, such is life. I think that that Scriptures clearly teach that our works will testify as to whether our conversion is real and the final verdict will be rendered accordingly. I think Romans 2 makes this case rather strongly.

 

[AVBunyan]

I think Romans 2 makes this case rather strongly.

You might want to again look at the time period - Paul's journey through Romans covers prior to the law - then under the law - and finally today.

If one were to prayerfully underline the past tense words and phrases in Ephesians 1-3 alone and still think he can loose it then his spiritual gears are slipping or his spiritual clutch is blown out.

God bless

 

[Drew]

There are widely diverging views on how to interpret Romans. I hope to post more later supporting the position that Romans 2 is relevant to us today and does indicate that we will be judged by our works. I would remind the reader of James 2 - faith without accompanying works cannot save.

 

[Drew]

If one were to prayerfully underline the past tense words and phrases in Ephesians 1-3 alone and still think he can loose it then his spiritual gears are slipping or his spiritual clutch is blown out.

Let the arguments determine whose spiritual clutch is or is not blown out.

I think that the issue of losing salvation is a non-issue since I think the Sciptures teach that salvation is only granted at the end of one's life anyway.

If I am able to provide more arguments I will.

 

[Fox_Fan]

I imagine this could be posted in several threads here, but you all can extrapolate the two points I'm trying to make from the below posts:

Ephesians 1:1314 -
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

...and...

Phillipians 1:6 -
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

...and lastly...

Romans 14:4 -
"Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."