For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[cyberjosh]

Nevermind.

It is such a simple understanding of God's Salvation, and being justified, sanctified, and glorified to ones promised eternal life that it is quite impossible for me to change anyones mind on the matter.

Those who really want to know that truth will seek God for the answer.

That's it? So you are just giving up on me and on this discussion? Where is your patience, your consideration, or your concern? If I quit at the first sight of a fight in a difficult dicussion I'd never get past the first post. Pray to the Lord for patience and strength and he will give it to you.

Now if you honestly have enough of the Spirit of Christ in you to want to edify others and teach correct doctrine, then if you differ from me in what I just said on the fear of the Lord, then please correct me. I will listen to you if you actually address the issue, not to say I will absolutely 100% agree with you, but I cannot listen to something you have never put forth.

So can you please comment on what I said about the fear of the Lord?

I don't give up when speaking to you. That is wholely unfair and inconsiderate. If you respect me (as you say you do) then you will talk to me.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

I do not run from fights. It is obvious that you do not know me.

I do not have the time to waste on this simple subject. All that could ever be presented on this topic has been presented time and again in the two years that I have been here; and only God will be able to convince you of HIS truth when you are ready to seek HIS truth and listen.

God bless.

 

[unred typo]

If one studies a bit of Biblical Theology, one would see through revelation of God, that His Grace has been available since the Fall.

Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Why, sure Noah found grace because he was a just man, perfect in his generations, and he walked with God. Genesis 6:9 . Are you saying grace was freely extended to all men everywhere without their bringing a sacrifice to God or trying to walk in his ways? I am aware that the offerings of the Levitical system pointed to the cross of Christ. I’m not entirely sure what Noah followed as a way of salvation but I am fairly sure it was pre-law, pre-Abraham, and pre-Christ.

 

[unred typo]

As a saint - my forgiveness was settled at Calvary - God does not forgive me based upon my great repentance! God has already forgiven me of all my past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary.

So I’ve been told. Did you get the free lifetime tickets to Disneyland with that heavenly condo presentation seminar? Do you have a scripture reference for God having forgiven you of “all your past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary?â€Â

if you are counting on your repentance for forgiveness you are not going to make it to glory because I can almost guarantee that you do not repent of every little sin you do.

When the spirit of God brings those short falls to mind, do you shrug them off or do you feel remorse for having failed the test? Would you like to have been victorious over those little sins or do you feel it is something you don’t have to be concerned about?

Should I acknowledge my sin? Of course for this clears the conscience.
Should I repent and turn away from the sin? Of course.
Is by doing the above going to earn me favor with God? Of course not!

I'm always in God's favor - for I am in Christ.

Do you earn God’s favor in spite of sinning willfully?

Maybe some bolding would help:
1 John 1:6-9
If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that says, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 2:9-11 He that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.
He that loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no occasion of stumbling in him.
But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not whither he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes.

Folks some of you here still cannot discern the difference between position and practical - You still think your practice (practical) determines your position/standing.

God bless

Please define what you mean by “positional†and “practical†using the following verses:

1 John 2:15-17 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passes away, and the lust thereof: but he that does the will of God abides forever.
Is the ‘passing away’ and ‘forever’ here practical or positional? Is doing the will of God practical or positional?

1 John 2:24-27 Let that therefore abide in you, which you have heard from the beginning. If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which you have received of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

Is the ‘eternal life’ and the ‘teaching of the Spirit’ here practical or positional? How is it that what you have heard from the beginning is not the teaching of Christ that a person should be following?


1 John 3:14-15 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loves not his brother abides in death.
Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

What does the word ‘because’ imply in this passage? Is the ‘eternal life’ here practical or positional?

1 John 3:23-24 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God has to us. God is love; and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him.

I must be totally ignorant but it seems to me that Jesus actually wants us to keep his commands in a practical way, in our real life situations and when/if we do, then, we are dwelling in him and he in us and without him in us, we have no eternal life.

 

[Guest]

So I’ve been told. Did you get the free lifetime tickets to Disneyland with that heavenly condo presentation seminar? Do you have a scripture reference for God having forgiven you of “all your past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary?â€Â

John 19:30

Also, in what position is Christ in now in Heaven?

 

[cyberjosh]

I do not run from fights. It is obvious that you do not know me.

I do not have the time to waste on this simple subject. All that could ever be presented on this topic has been presented time and again in the two years that I have been here; and only God will be able to convince you of HIS truth when you are ready to seek HIS truth and listen

*Sigh* So then you will not answer my specific view on the fear of the lord?

You cannot even acknowledge or disavow the simple statement that using grace keeps us from sin, and when we sin we fail to use it, and that the fear of the Lord is what assures that we will not sin by failing to take the freely offered grace?

That is one of the most Biblical theses I've ever heard (IMO), and I know other pastors who teach that. I think provable by the word of God, but I would really like to hear from you directly, and I'm trying to pull back from the earlier arguement of "loosing your salvation" - forget that for the moment - I'm talking about walking in God's grace day to day. The essence of salvation is grace. I'm almost certain you can agree with what I've said here, and if not could you please take just a few minutes of your time to sincerely tell me why. Please?

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[unred typo]

John 19:30

Also, in what position is Christ in now in Heaven?

30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Exactly. Jesus finished the sacrifice by pouring out his precious blood. We do not need to give our blood or the blood of our children or the blood of sheep and bulls for our sin. The free gift of his blood has been offered and it is sufficient to cover every sin of man.

What has he done for you lately?
Hebrews 7:24-27 But this man, because he continues ever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; Who needs not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

The gift is the blood by which our sins are freely covered when we confess and forsake them.

 

[Guest]

unred typo - what is the signfigance that Jesus is now "sitting down at the right hand of the Father."

The fact that Jesus "sat down" means more than He is just sitting.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. So I’ve been told. Did you get the free lifetime tickets to Disneyland with that heavenly condo presentation seminar? Do you have a scripture reference for God having forgiven you of “all your past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary?â€Â

2. When the spirit of God brings those short falls to mind, do you shrug them off or do you feel remorse for having failed the test? Would you like to have been victorious over those little sins or do you feel it is something you don’t have to be concerned about?

3. Do you earn God’s favor in spite of sinning willfully?

4. 1 John 2:15-17 ; 1 John 2:24-27 ; 1 John 3:14-15 ;1 John 3:23-24 ;1 John 4:16

Below is not really for unred for it appears this person cannot “see†what I’ve said but this post is for others to read.

Mods – forgive me for I’m pushing it a bit here with my attitude but I feel I need to be a bit strong due to poster always seeking to think the worse of my spiritual life. I know my spiritual life is not much but I don’t feel this poster has earned the right to assume the worse in me..

1. edited: Argumentive This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
According to I Cor. 15:1-5; Eph. 1:7; Col. 1:14; Eph. 1:13 my sins are gone because positionally I am in Christ and God sees me as sinless in His Son.

2. edited: Argumentive This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
I feel remorse – why are you assuming or hoping I do not?
Of course I’d like to be victorious over some issues. Why are you assuming or hoping I would not desire to be victorious?

3. edited: Argumentive This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
I do not earn any special favors with God by anything I do or do not do – My favor is found in his Son. You think you gain favor with God by your obedience - vanity of vanity. Should we obey? Of course, but we do not gain any favor with God by our obedience.

4. All practical and for a different people during a future period of time. This was not for you for you have no understanding in right division - this was for those who have some understanding in this area.

How come you avoid Ephesians and Colossians and hang around Jewish epistles that nothing to do with the body of Christ? The saint’s position is found here along with Romans 3-8.
Do you even have any understanding of the doctrine of the body of Christ vs. Israel? Most of the verses you pull out have nothing to do with body of Christ positional truth for the saint today.


Edits made by Atonement

 

[destiny]

AV .....I never said anything about how you live your life before the Lord.
We none can observe each others lives from a computer! My problem is strictly with your doctrinal teachings.

I hope that helped to clarify any misunderstandings.

 

[golfjack]

reply

Destiny, I have a hypothetical question for you. You say if one habitually sins, he cdould lose salvation. What if a Christian has smoked all his life, which I believe is a sin, does this person, lose his salvation?


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

Destiny, I have a hypothetical question for you. You say if one habitually sins, he cdould lose salvation. What if a Christian has smoked all his life, which I believe is a sin, does this person, lose his salvation?


May God bless, Golfjack

I have a big problem with doctrines that have the potential to cause another to stumble by making light of sin and repentance moreso than anything else. The fruit produced in a persons life tells whether they want to please God or not. I know people who smoke yet still produce Godly fruit indicating their salvation ...but are caught in a stronghold of addiction.
I also know people who have nothing that indicates they are saved yet have been told they are because they were told to just 'believe' and mouth a prayer.
I believe the fruit will be evident when true salvation has taken place.
I also believe if it looks like the world, speaks like the world, and is fruitless like the world, then it is the world whether a claim to christianity is made or not. (You shall know them by their fruit)
I'm happy to let God be the judge, but still I would never "teach" that the latter is saved.
I believe when scripture tells us "You shall know them by their fruit", that it means just that.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

I have a big problem with doctrines that have the potential to cause another to stumble by making light of sin and repentance moreso than anything else. T

Again - show me where the doctrine I believe to be so mskes light of sin.

By the way - all you need is a top hat and a cane for you've got you tap dance down.

Why not answer golf's question:
What if a Christian has smoked all his life, which I believe is a sin, does this person, lose his salvation?

And then mine?
If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

These should be a simply yes or no answer - what's the matter - are you afraid to commit?

 

[destiny]

Re: reply

Again - show me where the doctrine I believe to be so mskes light of sin.

By the way - all you need is a top hat and a cane for you've got you tap dance down.

Why not answer golf's question:
What if a Christian has smoked all his life, which I believe is a sin, does this person, lose his salvation?

And then mine?
If you sin and fail to repent and forsake it then what are the results? Do you still go to heaven - Yes or No?

These should be a simply yes or no answer - what's the matter - are you afraid to commit?

I honestly don't know how to be anymore plain or simplistic than I already have been in my answers. I have answered the questions yet my answers aren't comprehended by (some).
Has my simplicity confounded the wise?? I honestly don't know how to make myself any more clear so i'll end on that note.

 

[Drew]

If a person knows in his heart that smoking is a sin, and if it indeed factually is a sin, and if it is within the reasonable power of that person to stop, then refusal to do so indeed does strongly suggest that the person is not really committed to following Jesus, and might indeed not be granted admission to heaven.

It is not so much the smoking itself that would disqualify them, it is the underlying refusal to follow Jesus call for us to repent.

I think that some of you think that one can "disentangle" works from faith and believe that you can have saving faith without works. I think James rather clearly rules that out.

Here is where I think we differ on this: I think that if we subtract out "a willingness to follow Jesus by actually repenting of sin" from the concept of faith, all you have left is perhaps an intellectual assertion that Jesus died for one's sins and is Lord of the Universe. Some of you, I think, believe that this is enough. I think that numerous texts, such as the ones provided by unred, place such a view in grave doubt.

Another problem: When I say that works prove that faith is real and that the final verdict will be based on whether the works are there, I am most definitely not denying salvation by grace. What I am saying is that a person who has actually accepted that grace will, by the very nature of what it means to accept grace and live by faith, demonstrate works. Without the works, there is every reason to believe that the "conversion" was not genuine.

Let's say I have been given a needle with penicillin and told to go home and give myself a shot. Let's say that whatever illness I have will indeed respond to penicillin. If I am still sick two weeks later, then there is every reason to believe I did not take the shot. I hope the analogy is reasonably clear.

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: reply

I honestly don't know how to be anymore plain or simplistic than I already have been in my answers. I have answered the questions yet my answers aren't comprehended by (some).
Has my simplicity confounded the wise?? I honestly don't know how to make myself any more clear so i'll end on that note.

A simple yes or no to the above - You have not answered them.

 

[destiny]

Here is where I think we differ on this: I think that if we subtract out "a willingness to follow Jesus by actually repenting of sin" from the concept of faith, all you have left is perhaps an intellectual assertion that Jesus died for one's sins and is Lord of the Universe. Some of you, I think, believe that this is enough. I think that numerous texts, such as the ones provided by unred, place such a view in grave doubt.

Another problem: When I say that works prove that faith is real and that the final verdict will be based on whether the works are there, I am most definitely not denying salvation by grace. What I am saying is that a person who has actually accepted that grace will, by the very nature of what it means to accept grace and live by faith, demonstrate works. Without the works, there is every reason to believe that the "conversion" was not genuine.

Let's say I have been given a needle with penicillin and told to go home and give myself a shot. Let's say that whatever illness I have will indeed respond to penicillin. If I am still sick two weeks later, then there is every reason to believe I did not take the shot. I hope the analogy is reasonably clear.

Thank you, drew; My thoughts also although sometimes I can't seem to articulate these thoughts to written words. The analogy fits perfectly also.

 

[AVBunyan]

This thread has really gotten sidetracked. If folks would have spent more time:
1. Defining justification and then...
2. Showing from scripture what actually took place at the point of salvation...
Then this thread would have really accomplished a good work.

Instead it got sidetracked and what is being discussed is the believers' walk after salvation - And to make things worse some of you are still taking the practical walk and making that the basis of salvation! :o

I'd like to discuss the walk but then folks start would start using the walk to determine one's ultimate salvation.

You are not justified by your walk.
Your walk has no bearing on your justification.
If one chooses to walk like the world then he will reap what he sows down here plus he will lose the reward of of the inheritance in eternity.

I have found that folks that are truly regenerated and understand grace don't have the struggles and defeats that those who do not understand grace.

What is going on today is a lot of unregenerated "saints" seeking to make their obedience the basis for their justification.

Some here even believe that justification is a future work which is contrary to Romans 4-8, Ephesians thru Colossians.

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone,

What was Paul's response to the Galatians when they were caught up with those teaching that the Gentiles must be circumcised to be saved?

Galatians 3 1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

The Spirit's witness to us is what causes us to believe, and naturally our love toward God shines through us...to one another, and to the lost. This love, this charity, is the work of Christ in us...it is Christ in us. So the works that we do, that we as His workmanship (New Creation) were created to do, are His.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

The Law that is written on our hearts is the law we obey, and this is our inward circumcision. So we are saved by grace, through faith, and the nature of faith is to walk in love and charity...in God's Truth. God's law truly being obeyed is marked by the absence of traditions of men that yoke, and legalism that literally causes others to sin by trying to 'earn' a place in the Kingdom that was meant only for God's elect.

Faith and works, the two can not be separated, and yet both must remain properly defined. Faith must include works (those that are done according to the law written on our hearts), and works must include faith (faith that is genuine to the point of causing one to act upon the law written upon their heart). Believing God, and walking according to the Law on our hearts, is bound together and not meant to be separated. As believers we are not lawless, and if we are lawless then we are not believers. All of this, of course, must be because of His grace.

Paul tells us in Romans 2 that not the hearers of the law will be justified, but the doers. In the same passage we see that he that is a Jew that is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, and of the spirit, and NOT in the letter, but whose praise is not of men but of God.

What are good works? Is it someone walking perfectly? No, it is someone who is not lawless. God's law is on their heart. So, loving God and desiring to be like Him...to serve like Him...is part of their new nature. I think this can look very different for each of us, but the common things are those that identify us as lovers of His Truth... repentance, true forgiveness, love, and from that love charity, but all of this only by God's grace.

In Matthew 25, we see that the elect are those who didn't even know that they did good works. They were wondering when they had done these things for Christ, and it took Christ to praise them because in their humility (pureness of heart), in their service (being about their Father's business), they did even consider praising themselves. It was natural in their new nature to do these things, and to please their Father. This is one who obeys the law, and it is a law that is much more than Torah, method, doctrine, etc. It is a law that is burned into our hearts, and causes us to delight in God's work, in the Spirit, and Christ in us. We also sincerely realize that we are not worthy to be counted with Him.

In the same way, those who are not the elect do not realize that they rejected Christ. They don't realize that they failed to serve Him...probably because they thought that they were doing good works by the score for Christ, following great methods, having proper doctrine, following God's law to the letter, prospering all the while. These people had not faith, and their works were not born from the Law of God upon their hearts...it was carnal and meant to show their righteousness to men...to make them look worthy to be counted with Christ.

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I am sorry this post is so long, but I just wanted to share my opinion on the matter. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[destiny]

Absolutely, lovely ....I have no problem with what you've posted at all.