For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Imagican]

While there is nothing 'wrong' with 'positive thinking', I am at a loss to understand how anyone is able to 'believe' that ANYTHING 'can't' be LOST or 'given up'.

As it IS possible for one to RECEIVE Salvation, it is CERTAINLY their 'choice' to MAINTAIN IT. There are TONS of scripture that outright STATE that one IS able to LOOSE what they are given.

Christ DID die for ALL men, but that does NOT offer ALL MEN SALVATION. The 'offer' is there but it takes ACCEPTANCE to RECEIVE. And Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is OBVIOUSLY one way that one could LOOSE their Salvation.

There WILL be those that will 'SAY' that ONCE one IS 'saved' that they could NEVER offer 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'. Perhaps this IS true for the individuals that 'say' this. But to offer a generalized statement that this is IMPOSSIBLE for ALL MEN is nothing short of PURE SPECULATION that goes against EVERYTHING offered in The Word.

MEC

 

[unred typo]

Below is not really for unred for it appears this person cannot “see†what I’ve said but this post is for others to read.

Mods – forgive me for I’m pushing it a bit here with my attitude but I feel I need to be a bit strong due to poster always seeking to think the worse of my spiritual life. I know my spiritual life is not much but I don’t feel this poster has earned the right to assume the worse in me..

I do forgive you, Av, I don’t think the worst of you, and I apologize if I sounded like I meant my comments to be aimed at you personally. The ‘you’ in my post was meant as a general term that applies to all that hold to your OSAS belief. I should have perhaps used ‘we’. Let me restate it for you. Do we get the free lifetime tickets to Disneyland with that heavenly condo presentation seminar? Is there a scripture reference for God having forgiven us of “all our past, present, and future sins based upon Calvary?â€Â

This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
According to I Corinthians 15:1-5 ; Ephesians 1:7 ; Colossians 1:14 ; Ephesians 1:13 my sins are gone because positionally I am in Christ and God sees me as sinless in His Son.

I understand the positional sinless state we hold in Christ. As we walk in love, the Spirit keeps us spotless before God. BUT, when we begin to get hateful, lustful, envious, revengeful, prideful and bitter toward others, we are not walking in love. Then we must stop, consider our heart’s wrong attitude and turn from that behavior. We don’t lose the standing we have but we might if we willfully continue in our ill conduct toward others. Anger turns to murder in our heart if we don’t root out the bitterness. Wishing someone dead is not congruous with the loving Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand;
2By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

You are saved IF you keep what was preached to you. What did Paul preach? The popular answer is ’unmerited grace’. This is an example of the spiritual tunnel vision that is prevalent in many believers today. Grace is God sending his Son to die for us, when we were yet sinners. It is not God accepting our sins carte blanc. 1 Corinthians 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be you steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as you know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Philippians 2:15-17
15That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world;
16Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.
17Yea, and if I be offered upon the sacrifice and service of your faith, I joy, and rejoice with you all.

Shining as lights in the world is not just attending church or singing in the choir. It’s a life of honesty, purity and service to others, ignoring our own needs and desires. It’s not just serving the church and our friends but our enemies as well.

This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
I feel remorse – why are you assuming or hoping I do not?
Of course I’d like to be victorious over some issues. Why are you assuming or hoping I would not desire to be victorious?

I’m not assuming anything of the kind. Those are questions any pastor might have aimed at a congregation. I am trying to get you to see the choices we have when we sin and how we can repent of our sins in our hearts on a constant basis. You made the statement; “I can almost guarantee that you do not repent of every little sin you do.†Formally, I do not sit down and recount and confess every little sin I have committed. For an example, the Spirit gently reminds me when I have been too flippant and smart-allecky and I can choose to brush him away and continue firing rants or I can agree to back down and act more respectfully in my frustration to explain my views. Each victory gives us strength to do better next time.

3.

This mocking and disrespectful attitude of yours is why I originally put you on Ignore.
I do not earn any special favors with God by anything I do or do not do – My favor is found in his Son. You think you gain favor with God by your obedience - vanity of vanity. Should we obey? Of course, but we do not gain any favor with God by our obedience.

This is just wrong, Av. God says we do gain favor with him by obeying him. Look at the Israelites, our OT example.

Jude 1:4-5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though you once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Look at all the times they sinned against God and how they lost his favor for doing so. Believing that God will reward faithfulness is not vanity of vanities, it’s faith in God and in his word. Hebrews 11:6

4. All practical and for a different people during a future period of time. This was not for you for you have no understanding in right division - this was for those who have some understanding in this area.

How come you avoid Ephesians and Colossians and hang around Jewish epistles that nothing to do with the body of Christ? The saint’s position is found here along with Romans 3-8.
Do you even have any understanding of the doctrine of the body of Christ vs. Israel? Most of the verses you pull out have nothing to do with body of Christ positional truth for the saint today.

Yes, all those scriptures are practical for the future generations and for us right now. The concept is not that complicated. Obey, get a reward. Disobey, get punished. Forgive as you have been forgiven. Treat others as you would want to be treated. Unfortunately for you, I enjoy being taunted into a deeper understanding of the word, so I am treating you as I would want to be treated. When I’m walking wrong, show me and I’ll consider it, especially if the shoes pinch a little. Some people are easily offended by this and my passion about these issues gets me in trouble.

I do not nor have I ever avoided any of the Bible, especially not Ephesians and Colossians. I love those books. I even love to use Romans to show that Paul definitely taught that faith without works is dead. If you will be specific about which verses/chapters I am avoiding, I’ll be more than thrilled to discuss them with you. Fire away.

I believe there are verses that pertain to the audience to whom they were addressed, yes, but using the argument that anything that goes against my personal beliefs must be directed at another group and another dispensation is pretty lame, IMHO.

 

[mondar]

While there is nothing 'wrong' with 'positive thinking', I am at a loss to understand how anyone is able to 'believe' that ANYTHING 'can't' be LOST or 'given up'.

The reason you are at a loss to understand the other side is because you fail to understand the grace of God. You think maintaining your salvation depends upon you in some way. If it depends upon you, then forget it, you lost it already. It is the height of self-righteousness to think you are righteous enough to keep your own salvation. The reason it cannot be lost, is that salvation never depended upon our righteousness, but upon his righteousness. Why would that change after salvation? Now suddenly after we are saved, salvation depends upon our righteousness? God forbid!!!

As it IS possible for one to RECEIVE Salvation, it is CERTAINLY their 'choice' to MAINTAIN IT. There are TONS of scripture that outright STATE that one IS able to LOOSE what they are given.

It is impossible for man to go find salvation because man is a rebel from the righteousness of God by nature. We will never seed God.
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;
Because of being slaves to our sin nature we will arrogantly defy God. We will rebel and continue to hate God. Before salvation we were enemies of God, totally arrogant against his offer of Grace. We cannot change our arrogance ourselves and suddenly come to God for his grace. Only God can bring us to the place where we accept his grace. You never chose God of yourself, but you chose God only because he chose you. Any other doctrine ends in amazing self-righteousness. This self-righteousness continues into your view of maintaining your salvation. So now that your are saved by the greatness of your own righteousness you are going to keep yourself saved. God forbid! May it never be! You view totally fails to see the wonderful grace of God. If it was God who saved us, it is God who will keep us saved.
Jud 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
I can just see some marching boldly before the throne of Gods glory and telling him, man am I glad I was great enough to keep my own salvation. Remember, it is the throne of his glory, not yours. Jude 1:24 makes it clear who presents you faultless, it will be Gods ability to present you faultless not your own ability. God is the one who keeps you from stumbling or falling. If you loose your salvation, maybe God misplaced it! Does your God need corrective glasses, or maybe a set of contacts to find where he misplaced your salvation? By your view, you take away from the glory of God. Only he is good, only he is righteous, only he is glorious.

Christ DID die for ALL men, but that does NOT offer ALL MEN SALVATION. The 'offer' is there but it takes ACCEPTANCE to RECEIVE. And Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is OBVIOUSLY one way that one could LOOSE their Salvation.

Your view is what I would call " very limited atonement." Your view of Christs shed blood is so weak that it is very limited in its ability to save. You view the precious shed blood of God almighty as not sufficient to save completely and absolutely? In your view Christs shed blood as a mere theoretical possibility that maybe some will be saved. In your view Christs death did not actually save anyone. Imagine that, Christ shedding his blood hoping that someone will avail themselves of it. Why I bet your God is just up in heaven biting his nails hoping that some men will be righteous enough to accept this theoretical possibility that maybe some will be saved.

There WILL be those that will 'SAY' that ONCE one IS 'saved' that they could NEVER offer 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'. Perhaps this IS true for the individuals that 'say' this. But to offer a generalized statement that this is IMPOSSIBLE for ALL MEN is nothing short of PURE SPECULATION that goes against EVERYTHING offered in The Word.
MEC

It takes true humility to accept that you are not righteous enough to even keep your own salvation. If it were not but for the grace of God, all of us would be blasphemers. As for blaspheming the HS(Mt 12:31), that was the sin of the pharisees when the attributed the miracles of Christ to being down by the power of Satan. Attributing the miracles of Christ to satan is a thought so utterly from the pit of Hell, anyone saved would immediately and utterly abhor such a thought. I am willing to postulate that such a thought never even entered the mind of a saved person. This would not be because of the saved persons righteousness, but the Spirit of God dwells in us. God would keep us from such a thought. The reason you think a saved person can think such a thought is because of your small view of the work of God in salvation. Salvation always results in fruit. The salvation provided by God will never fail. This does not mean we are righteous, but it means that he is graceful and righteous.

If you are saved, give God the glory. If you remain saved, glorify God because he kept you saved. Enough of the self-righteousness.

 

[Fox_Fan]

I imagine this could be posted in several threads here, but you all can extrapolate the two points I'm trying to make from the below posts:

Ephesians 1:1314 -
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

...and...

Phillipians 1:6 -
"being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

...and lastly...

Romans 14:4 -
"Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand."

Just to reiterate... :wink:

 

[AVBunyan]

Summer Rerun

Let's try this again...Repetition is the key to learning.

Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State

I think one of the reasons people are confused about eternal security and their Christian walk is that they confuse Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State.

I’m sure most know this but I thought I’d throw it out anyway for discussion.

Position and Standing
This is how God sees you after he saved you and put you in His dear Son and seated you in heavenly places in Christ. God knows that because of the sin nature in us He has to declare us righteous even though we are not. God can do this because Christ has taken our place at Calvary and on this basis God declares us righteous. So “in the books†the saint, from God’s standpoint, is perfect, as though he never sinned or ever will sin. It has to be this way because if not we have no hope!

Practical and State
This is how we are down here. We are still stuck in these vile bodies that like to sin (Rom. 7). Because of the sin nature still in us we are in a fight daily. So, most of the time our state is a wreck. Sins are associated with our state.

I think what people do is to look at their “state†and are counting on their “state†to ultimately determine their “standing†before God.

If you are saved the standing is settled. Does this mean you can quit now that Jesus “took and passed the final exam for you� No, we should strive to be all that God has called us to be.

Our duty then?

Doctrine – Ephesians chapters 1-3 tells you your standing in Christ. Then, Eph. 4-6 tells you how to walk because of that standing. Eph. 4:1: “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.â€Â

In other words, “Now that you are perfect in Christ, walk your position heavenly position down here.†Up there (heaven) is victory, holiness, forgiveness, and assurance. Are you going to fail down here? Yes, so by the power of the Spirit and the instruction from the word as it is read and preached from the pulpit we are equipped to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called.

What happens when one doesn’t know his standing. He looks at his state. One day it is Alabama, one day it is Oregon, and the next day it is New York. No stability and assurance there. Then he begins to try harder, goes up and down in his walk, gets discouraged, and finally is in despair because he thinks his state will determine his standing. A lot of time he even gives up because he gets too discouraged.

When a saint understands his standing and grace then he is so thankful, assured, and comforted that he is able to endure his vile flesh for he knows he is safe. He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done (Phil 1:6).

Now that was long and boring to some but I trust it will encourage those who struggle in this area. And lets face it – we all have a tendency to get discouraged in trying to live the Christian life and we forget that our standing guarantees God’s acceptance of us in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Imagican]

I offer Judas as 'case in point'.

Question ONE:

Did Judas BELIEVE that Jesus WAS 'The Christ'?

If you believe that he DID 'believe', then HOW did he 'turn his back on Christ'?

This is a PRIME example of one accepting and then 'turning away'.

We also have the example of the man that 'cleaned up his house', (indicating an acceptance), and then went BACK to his previous ways and ended up in WORSE shape than he had been when he FIRST believed.

There are NUMEROUS examples indicating that Salvation CAN be altered by the individual. WE are to SERVE with FEAR and TREMBLING. What does this mean if not that we are in NO WAY to let our minds FOOL our hearts into believing such nonsense as OSAS. What God gives He is CERTAINLY able to TAKE AWAY. Whether it be this life or the 'life to come'.

And NO, I DO NOT believe that Salvation is 'something that WE are capable of accomplishing'. It IS a 'gift' and NONE is worthy on their OWN MERITS. But it IS up to US as whether we are willing to ACCEPT what has been offered and this acceptance CAN be altered by the individual. Neither Christ NOR His Father are going to offer Salvation to ANYONE that 'doesn't want it'. Wheat and chaff my friends; these are NOT just words but DIFFERENCES in spirituality.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

I offer Judas as 'case in point'.

Question ONE:

Did Judas BELIEVE that Jesus WAS 'The Christ'?

If you believe that he DID 'believe', then HOW did he 'turn his back on Christ'?

This is a PRIME example of one accepting and then 'turning away'.

We also have the example of the man that 'cleaned up his house', (indicating an acceptance), and then went BACK to his previous ways and ended up in WORSE shape than he had been when he FIRST believed.

There are NUMEROUS examples indicating that Salvation CAN be altered by the individual. WE are to SERVE with FEAR and TREMBLING. What does this mean if not that we are in NO WAY to let our minds FOOL our hearts into believing such nonsense as OSAS. What God gives He is CERTAINLY able to TAKE AWAY. Whether it be this life or the 'life to come'.

And NO, I DO NOT believe that Salvation is 'something that WE are capable of accomplishing'. It IS a 'gift' and NONE is worthy on their OWN MERITS. But it IS up to US as whether we are willing to ACCEPT what has been offered and this acceptance CAN be altered by the individual. Neither Christ NOR His Father are going to offer Salvation to ANYONE that 'doesn't want it'. Wheat and chaff my friends; these are NOT just words but DIFFERENCES in spirituality.

MEC

Good post...

Regards

 

[Fox_Fan]

I offer Judas as 'case in point'.

Question ONE:

Did Judas BELIEVE that Jesus WAS 'The Christ'?

If you believe that he DID 'believe', then HOW did he 'turn his back on Christ'?

This is a PRIME example of one accepting and then 'turning away'.

We also have the example of the man that 'cleaned up his house', (indicating an acceptance), and then went BACK to his previous ways and ended up in WORSE shape than he had been when he FIRST believed.

There are NUMEROUS examples indicating that Salvation CAN be altered by the individual. WE are to SERVE with FEAR and TREMBLING. What does this mean if not that we are in NO WAY to let our minds FOOL our hearts into believing such nonsense as OSAS. What God gives He is CERTAINLY able to TAKE AWAY. Whether it be this life or the 'life to come'.

And NO, I DO NOT believe that Salvation is 'something that WE are capable of accomplishing'. It IS a 'gift' and NONE is worthy on their OWN MERITS. But it IS up to US as whether we are willing to ACCEPT what has been offered and this acceptance CAN be altered by the individual. Neither Christ NOR His Father are going to offer Salvation to ANYONE that 'doesn't want it'. Wheat and chaff my friends; these are NOT just words but DIFFERENCES in spirituality.

MEC

In answer to this question, no Judas did not believe Jesus was "The Christ." He saw Jesus as being an earthly Messiah that would lead the Jews as the Kings of old did. Judas did not believe that Jesus was the Son of God who would offer His life as a sacrifice for our sins.

 

[AVBunyan]

This is a PRIME example of one accepting and then 'turning away'.

I can't believe this Judas example is being brought up again.

Judas was a devil - can't use him as an example of church age saint falling away.

Also...
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Using Judas just won't work unless you believe devils can be saved! :o :o

 

[unred typo]

Hei, Av… was this for me? Or am I on ignore again?

Let's try this again...Repetition is the key to learning.

It’s also the key to brainwashing. Who was it that said if you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it?

Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State

I think one of the reasons people are confused about eternal security and their Christian walk is that they confuse Position vs. Practical – Standing vs. State.

I’m sure most know this but I thought I’d throw it out anyway for discussion.

I agree. You should throw it out. It was destined for the dumpster.

Position and Standing
This is how God sees you after he saved you and put you in His dear Son and seated you in heavenly places in Christ. God knows that because of the sin nature in us He has to declare us righteous even though we are not. God can do this because Christ has taken our place at Calvary and on this basis God declares us righteous. So “in the books†the saint, from God’s standpoint, is perfect, as though he never sinned or ever will sin. It has to be this way because if not we have no hope!

This is an example of having a form of godliness and denying the power thereof. Godliness will save you. You cannot achieve pefrection but if we confess our sins and forsake them, the blood of Christ cleanses us both positionally and practically and perfectly, because he ever lives to make intercession for us.

Practical and State
This is how we are down here. We are still stuck in these vile bodies that like to sin (Rom. 7). Because of the sin nature still in us we are in a fight daily. So, most of the time our state is a wreck. Sins are associated with our state.

I think what people do is to look at their “state†and are counting on their “state†to ultimately determine their “standing†before God.

If you are saved the standing is settled. Does this mean you can quit now that Jesus “took and passed the final exam for you� No, we should strive to be all that God has called us to be.

Yup, don’t go out to play, children of the King. Stay inside all summer and study and strive to pass the final exam that the teacher already given you an A+ on. Who wrote this script?

Our duty then?

Doctrine – Ephesians chapters 1-3 tells you your standing in Christ. Then, Eph. 4-6 tells you how to walk because of that standing. Eph. 4:1: “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called.â€Â

In other words, “Now that you are perfect in Christ, walk your position heavenly position down here.†Up there (heaven) is victory, holiness, forgiveness, and assurance. Are you going to fail down here? Yes, so by the power of the Spirit and the instruction from the word as it is read and preached from the pulpit we are equipped to walk worthy of the vocation wherewith we are called.

No, now that we have the blood of Christ to cover our sins when we stumble, we don’t have to look like a drunkard staggering through life. The promise of the Holy Spirit and the laws of God right in our hearts and minds gives us new direction, renewed strength and hope in the simplicity of the gospel. Our battle cry: I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Ephesians 4:22-32 That you put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that you put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
26Be you angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needs.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32And be you kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

What happens when one doesn’t know his standing. He looks at his state. One day it is Alabama, one day it is Oregon, and the next day it is New York. No stability and assurance there. Then he begins to try harder, goes up and down in his walk, gets discouraged, and finally is in despair because he thinks his state will determine his standing. A lot of time he even gives up because he gets too discouraged.

It’s plain that you don’t know what state you’re in.

When a saint understands his standing and grace then he is so thankful, assured, and comforted that he is able to endure his vile flesh for he knows he is safe. He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done (Phil 1:6).

What is wrong with this picture? The man stayed awake all night holding his shotgun because he was thankful, assured and comforted knowing that the jewels were safely locked away.
The logic of this sentence alone is mind boggling: “He is on guard and prepared for he knows it will take the power of God to finish the work that has been done.†Av, you’re confusing me.

Now that was long and boring to some but I trust it will encourage those who struggle in this area. And lets face it – we all have a tendency to get discouraged in trying to live the Christian life and we forget that our standing guarantees God’s acceptance of us in the person of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Honest folks do struggle when they try to embrace a lie. My advice: Give it up. The truth may be hard to take but the yoke is easy and the burden is light. Don’t try to call him ‘Lord, Lord’ and not do what he says.

 

[AVBunyan]

BTW unred - you are on my Ignore list so go a head and do what you do best... mock away at my posts and grace. I've been posting here for 5 years and you win the big prize.

I feel better and more spiritually clean not reading your posts

Edited: 8-)

 

[mondar]

I offer Judas as 'case in point'.

Question ONE:

Did Judas BELIEVE that Jesus WAS 'The Christ'?

If you believe that he DID 'believe', then HOW did he 'turn his back on Christ'?

This is a PRIME example of one accepting and then 'turning away'.

We also have the example of the man that 'cleaned up his house', (indicating an acceptance), and then went BACK to his previous ways and ended up in WORSE shape than he had been when he FIRST believed.

There are NUMEROUS examples indicating that Salvation CAN be altered by the individual. WE are to SERVE with FEAR and TREMBLING. What does this mean if not that we are in NO WAY to let our minds FOOL our hearts into believing such nonsense as OSAS. What God gives He is CERTAINLY able to TAKE AWAY. Whether it be this life or the 'life to come'.

And NO, I DO NOT believe that Salvation is 'something that WE are capable of accomplishing'. It IS a 'gift' and NONE is worthy on their OWN MERITS. But it IS up to US as whether we are willing to ACCEPT what has been offered and this acceptance CAN be altered by the individual. Neither Christ NOR His Father are going to offer Salvation to ANYONE that 'doesn't want it'. Wheat and chaff my friends; these are NOT just words but DIFFERENCES in spirituality.

MEC

Judas never received eternal life and was going to hell from the start. The man who cleans up his house was an illustration of reforming ones self, not salvation. I dont believe I suggested you were saying that you can accomplish your own salvation all by yourself. In your theology Christ helps you out with that.... a little maybe. Then after your salvation Christ and his grace does a disappearing act and vanishes and leaves it all up to your and your mighty self-righteous works. Just think about it a little. Some day you will stand before God. There will be three of you. The first one will be a pagan standing next to you who rejected Christ, you might begin bragging that at least you made the right decision, whereas the pagan did not make the right decision you did, so the pagan deserves hell, at least you earned heaven with the help of Christ shed blood by your correct decision. The second person was once a Christian, but they we just was not righteous enough to keep his salvation, but you can puff up your chest and show how your earned the right to stay saved.

Naaa, all 3 of the above people need to learn of the grace of our loving Lord. We were born rebels totally enslaved to sin (Rm 6:17). Christ freed us from sin (Rm 6:18) and now we need to yield to our new natures and serve God, righteousness, and holiness (Rm 6:19, 22).

Our lives should now be lived based upon his grace, and not our own self righteousness. Do our works keep us saved? Heavens no! Works are the friuts of justification. Justification is Gods work in us, sanctification is also the work of the HS and so the works we do are not even our own. We have no righteousness at all, to claim that we can keep ourselves saved is nothing but self-righteousness.

these are NOT just words but DIFFERENCES in spirituality.

Wow, at least you admit I am saved.... I think : In any case, if you say you are more spiritual then a sinner like me, that is not saying much. For I openly admit I am not a righteous man.

What you are saying here is the great danger of your doctrine. You can always find someone worse then you and puff yourself up and get all self-righteous. Yet when you come before God and the glory of his magnificant righteousness, I guarantee you, that you will fall down at his feet and take your place with the rest of us sinners.

Mondar

 

[destiny]

What is going on today is a lot of unregenerated "saints" seeking to make their obedience the basis for their justification.

I honestly do not know an unregenerate person who can truly obey God. There are unregenerate people who do religious works, yes, but I believe it takes G-R-A-C-E to give the strength to obey.
Only through Gods strengthening grace have I personally been able to obey. Theres no way I could have obeyed God before salvation.
I think theres a lot of misunderstandings as to how grace works in a believers life. It's not a means of allowance so much as it is what enables us to have the strength to run the race in a worthy manner.

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote:

BTW unred - you are on my Ignore list so go a head and do what you do best... mock away at my posts and grace. I've been posting here for 5 years and you win the big prize.

I feel better and more spiritually clean not reading your posts

I’ve only been on this board half that time but have never put anyone on ignore. Sure, that would be easier than “kicking against the pricks†as Jesus called it, Acts 9:5 but I would rather give every man an answer for the hope that is within me, if I have one I feel is worth reading. Sometimes there isn’t an adequate way to express it or I’ve already tried six ways to Sunday and not made any headway. Sometimes there isn’t enough time or energy to research the topic and it’s advisable to just avoid the thread altogether. If the topic doesn’t seem worth pursuing it’s better to ignore it. Why waste time with topics that are trivial issues that only seem to cause hate and discontent among brothers. I don’t mock anyone’s sincere beliefs if I can avoid it. I feel more compelled to do so with what I believe are a mockery of what scripture teaches.

I have little patience with doctrines that make a fool or deceiver out of God. He meant what he said and he said it plainly. It is only a mystery to those who refuse the truth and would rather believe a lie. There is no need to spend hours revising obscure passages to make convoluted doctrines and giving them elaborate names. Jesus taught simple, practical truths that we need to follow in order to please God and be saved. He gave severe warnings about ignoring those truths and he wasn’t kidding. He said it would be better for one to pluck out their own eye or cut off their own hand than to let those members cause them to sin. He wasn’t advocating disfigurement but stressing the urgency and imperative nature of believing in his message.

Now ‘Christians’ have taken all his truths and relegated them to the obsolete list of discarded laws that his sacrifice fulfilled. Rules about the purity and kind of the sacrificial animals, meal offerings, etc and the performance of those rituals that were a picture of his death are no longer needed in order to obey God. “It is finished†refers to the old sacrificial system, not the everlasting gospel of his Son. The long awaited blood of the new covenant had been shed for our sins. The new covenant in his blood which is the gospel that he preached where we don’t expect material riches, but give lovingly one to another, turn the other cheek and forgive as we were forgiven, has now come into effect. Now we all are taught by God to love one another and we have his Spirit within us when we do that.

 

[unred typo]

Mondar wrote:

Judas never received eternal life and was going to hell from the start. The man who cleans up his house was an illustration of reforming ones self, not salvation. I dont believe I suggested you were saying that you can accomplish your own salvation all by yourself. In your theology Christ helps you out with that.... a little maybe. Then after your salvation Christ and his grace does a disappearing act and vanishes and leaves it all up to your and your mighty self-righteous works.

I can’t speak for destiny, but I believe in works. Faith without works is dead. The sacrifice of Christ is the work you cannot boast about nor add your blood to. This was the work he did that is all sufficient to pay for your sins when you repent of them, turn from your old ways and follow Christ. Following Christ is not “mighty self-righteous works.†It is taking the form of a servant and putting others first, forsaking your own life of pleasures, sins and worldly gain. Christ doesn’t do a vanishing act, but ever lives to make intercession for us, while his spirit convicts us of sin and teaches us how to love one another. It’s team effort and we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.



Mondar wrote:

Just think about it a little. Some day you will stand before God. There will be three of you. The first one will be a pagan standing next to you who rejected Christ, you might begin bragging that at least you made the right decision, whereas the pagan did not make the right decision you did, so the pagan deserves hell, at least you earned heaven with the help of Christ shed blood by your correct decision. The second person was once a Christian, but they we just was not righteous enough to keep his salvation, but you can puff up your chest and show how your earned the right to stay saved.

The pagan has the holy spirit to guide him to love and good works just as the church-going ‘Christian’ does. God will judge him according to the light that he has. The "correct doctrines" do not save, following Christ saves. He taught us the way to earn eternal life. Why don’t you believe him?

Mondar wrote:

Naaa, all 3 of the above people need to learn of the grace of our loving Lord. We were born rebels totally enslaved to sin (Rm 6:17). Christ freed us from sin (Rm 6:18) and now we need to yield to our new natures and serve God, righteousness, and holiness (Rm 6:19, 22).

How do you explain Romans 7:9? Paul says he was alive before the law came. When was that?
You are free from sin in Romans 6:17 by obeying the doctrines taught by Christ from your heart. James told us to resist the devil and he will flee.

James 4:6-8 But he gives more grace. Wherefore he says, God resists the proud, but gives grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.
You wrote: “now we need to yield to our new natures and serve God, righteousness, and holiness (Rm 6:19, 22).†This is true but you tried to strip it of it’s power. The real reason we need to do this is in order to inherit eternal life. Read it again for the first time:

21What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Did you see that? Paul is speaking to believers, btw.


Mondar wrote:

Our lives should now be lived based upon his grace, and not our own self righteousness. Do our works keep us saved? Heavens no! Works are the friuts of justification. Justification is Gods work in us, sanctification is also the work of the HS and so the works we do are not even our own. We have no righteousness at all, to claim that we can keep ourselves saved is nothing but self-righteousness.

That sounds oh so humble but it’s only a false humility. Remember we are to be faithful servants who do the Lord’s bidding, not let him do the work for us while we sit and wring our hands and say we’re just useless, you have to do it for us. He is the master. What kind of slave says he can’t do what his Lord commands him to do? I believe that would be a wicked and slothful servant like the one who was 'cast into outer darkness:' where there shall be 'weeping and gnashing of teeth' in Matthew 25:25-30.

What will you answer God when he asks you why you spent your time here committing sins day in and day out without any remorse? The devil made me do it? I thought that was your job? I didn’t think it was necessary for my salvation? I thought all my sins were covered so a few more is nothing to worry about? I didn’t know you cared about my trying to be Christ-like? Those might work if you are a newbie, but if you are thirty years drinking the milk of the word, it’s time you didn’t mess your diaper. Here are some more Paul-isms that sound pretty much like he expects us to work at keeping ourselves in the faith:

1 Timothy 6:11-12 But you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto you are also called, and has professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1 Timothy 6:17-19 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who gives us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

1 Timothy 6:9-10 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. (hmmmn…wasn’t Judas called a son of perdition? ) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Romans 6:12-16 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield you your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain.

 

[Imagican]

Re:

What is going on today is a lot of unregenerated "saints" seeking to make their obedience the basis for their justification.

I honestly do not know an unregenerate person who can truly obey God. There are unregenerate people who do religious works, yes, but I believe it takes G-R-A-C-E to give the strength to obey.
Only through Gods strengthening grace have I personally been able to obey. Theres no way I could have obeyed God before salvation.
I think theres a lot of misunderstandings as to how grace works in a believers life. It's not a means of allowance so much as it is what enables us to have the strength to run the race in a worthy manner.

So, the ONLY difference between unregenerate and those that are saved is that those that are 'saved' are FORGIVEN?

A sinner IS a SINNER folks. And God FORGIVES those that ASK for it with sincerity in their hearts. Yet there IS NOT forgiveness to one that DOES NOT ASK FOR IT. Saved, NOT saved; there is NOT A ONE of us here that KNOWS for a FACT who IS or WHO ISN'T saved. All we can do is HOPE that through the GRACE of God that we WILL be forgiven.

Let's stop here for a second. New direction for a SECOND to prove a POINT;

Who out there RIGHT NOW will OPENLY ADMIT that God TALKS to YOU PERSONALLY................
Now the Catholics believe that the POPE or even the Bishops are capable of discerning who will and who will NOT go to heaven, (who is or isn't forgiven). And they are TAUGHT that this IS POSSIBLE. Now, who among us gathered here KNOWS God well enough to offer whether or not "I" am saved?

So, positive THINKING is NOT a 'bad thing' of ITSELF. But SELF DELUSION IS. If we were ABLE to KNOW that our salvation IS ASSURED, there would be NO REASON to serve with FEAR AND TREMBLING. And exactly how HARD is it for one that is assured of ANYTHING to BE HUMBLE?

Now Satan, on the other hand would LOVE for those that ARE lost to BELIEVE that they ARE SAVED. What an easy task to destroy those that don't even realize WHO their enemy truly is.

No, it goes even DEEPER than OSAS being 'false doctrine'. With us MANY things are NOT POSSIBLE. With God, ALL things ARE POSSIBLE. But no matter HOW MUCH one attempts to 'brainwash' themselves with positive thinking, that takes NOT ONE TIT from the Word.

Now, what does the Word say about Salvation? There are MANY things that PLAINLY offer that we are NOT to 'live for tomorrow. We are to live for TODAY. But how often have I heard those that believe in OSAS state without a blink of their eye, "I KNOW that I'm going to heaven when I die?" And even with this being offered there will STILL be those that don't even understand what I am talking about.

NO ONE knows the future EXCEPT GOD and what has been revealed to His Son.

The BEST that we ARE ABLE to DO is HOPE that God sees fit to forgive us and grant us eternal life. There has NEVER been ONE OF US that has been SPOKEN to BY GOD that I know of. Conviction and an actual VOICE are two different things folks. And even if ONE of you states that God HAS spoken to you in an audiable voice, I would contend that there is NO WAY that you could be assured that it was God and NOT Satan instead.

OSAS teaches that ONCE one 'convinces THEMSELVES' that they ARE saved that they are then OK to live the way in which they choose. Of course NO self-respecting OSASer would ADMIT to this but it IS the TRUTH. This is NOTHING short of positive reinforcement to the point of 'brainwashing oneself into believing what some MAN has taught them.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and Mondar,

You confuse me with some 'self-righteous' hypocrite that DOESN't understand, (nor will they), the truth. There has NEVER been a sinner WORSE than I. Every day I am convicted of my sins and am FORCED to seek repentance and forgiveness. I, however, do NOT attempt to FOOL myself into believing what I WANT to be truth IS truth indeed. I rely on The Word and the Spirit to offer guidance and without these two I would be NOTHING but a 'bible thumping Jesus Freak'.

Folks, the FIRST thing you MUST DO in order to FIND the TRUTH is be TRUTHFUL with YOURSELF. For IF one is UNABLE to be truthful WITH THEMSELVES, the truth then becomes WHATEVER they choose for it to BE.

MEC

 

[Guest]

The pagan has the holy spirit to guide him to love and good works just as the church-going ‘Christian’ does. God will judge him according to the light that he has. The "correct doctrines" do not save, following Christ saves. He taught us the way to earn eternal life. Why don’t you believe him?

I will admit upfront, that I did not read beyond this quote.

Please provide Scriptural evidence that

a) the pagan is guided by the Holy Spirit to love and good works

b) that God judges based on the "light he has"

Doctrines in and of themselves do not save - but the correct doctrine placed in correct action does.

 

[destiny]

So, the ONLY difference between unregenerate and those that are saved is that those that are 'saved' are FORGIVEN?

:smt017 MEC, what does this have to do with my post??

 

[Guest]

I wonder what would happen if we were to have spent the time that we have all spent on this topic, and instead of making snide remarks, insulting remarks (I realize that not all have been this way) but it appears that this is where this thread is heading....

And instead of focusing on the division among us - what if we would have spent that time encouraging one another to follow the example of Christ. Perhaps we are worrying too much on what happens when we sin and we should focus more attention on living for Christ?