For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[AVBunyan]

I wonder what would happen if we were to have spent the time that we have all spent on this topic, and instead of making snide remarks, insulting remarks (I realize that not all have been this way) but it appears that this is where this thread is heading....

I agree Alonevoice - I tried hard to keep the thread on the OP idea - But when some just couldn't reply without mockings it got old. All I did was point out the mockings - I sought to answer the mockings - One even asked what my responsibility was to God (which had nothing to do with th OP) and I answered - their response? More mockings. I post what I believed to be a well-thought out post on Position vs. Practical and that was mocked - I had enough and fired back! I normally ignore that poster but tried to answer anyway - hence the bad "atmosphere" which I partly am responsible - But look back and see how it got stirred up and by who.

I believe a sinner is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ and after that the saint should seek to live and walk in a holy manner because he is saved not to be saved.

I do not believe one should take advantage of God's grace though many do. Now my stand on grace and the practical life is sound and stands the test regardless of the twisting of it that some have done.

I can say no more. Most here should know by now where I stand. I do not expect unregenerate folk to understand the difference between Position and Practical.

God bless

 

[Guest]

AV - I understand your position, and I thought your post about Practical vs Position was well articulated. I happen to agree with your position.

At the same time, I can understand where some come from in regards to believing that OSAS means that one can do whatever they want. As a youth pastor (though not currently on staff anywhere) - I dealt with this often - or atleast it was that attitude that came across:

"Hey, I am saved. I said a prayer. I raised my hand at the alter call. So, it doesn't matter what I do - I am saved."

Even though I agree with OSAS - I would argue that that abuse of OSAS calls into question a person's understanding of the grace of God. We are not to mock or tempt God.

Therefore, that is why I would suggest that we work to building up one another in Christ - and seeking to live the Christian life.

 

[Imagican]

So, the ONLY difference between unregenerate and those that are saved is that those that are 'saved' are FORGIVEN?

:smt017 MEC, what does this have to do with my post??

Very little destiny. My mistake. This new format has me a bit confused at times. I can look back now and see that it was NOT your post to which I replied, but a number of others before and after. Please pardon my ignorance.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I will still argue that OSAS takes away FREE WILL and therefore cannot be 'truth'. For EACH of us HAS 'free will' and THAT is a FACT. While we CAN be influenced to ALTER our thoughts and actions, they are STILL ours to use as WE WILL.

There are MANY MANY instances that I could offer where those that have been AVID 'Christians' have 'turned away'. OSASers would offer that these weren't SAVED to start with. I contend that this is just a means to justify a position and fails to take into account that not a SINGLE one of us is able to judge the HEART of another. An 'easy out' to continue in one's defense of OSAS.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit IS an UNFORGIVABLE sin. Therefore, if one who WAS saved were to commit this sin without repentance, it is INDICATED through the Word that one such as this would NOT be forgiven.

To say that this is NOT possible is, once again, PURE speculation WITHOUT ANY evidence to back it up.

Oh, and how does ANYONE KNOW the state of Judas' heart before or after his deception? We have FEW words concerning this man and his deed. There WILL be many 'Christians' who upon judgement will face the EXACT position of Judas. Now, whether these are 'saved' or not is NOT something that "I" have the ability to judge. How MANY, so called, "Christians" have 'sold out' to 'filthy lucre'? How many have 'turned their backs on their BROTHERS and SISTERS for the sake of wealth or PERSONAL FEELINGS OR GAIN? How many among us RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW have FAILED to BE OUR BROTHERS KEEPERS?

Judgement of such subjects as WHO is or WHO isn't 'saved' is NOT within our capabilities folks. That is like saying, "The Catholics have got it all wrong, BUT, I'm going to serve JUST like them". They TOO believe that men ARE able to judge the hearts of each other. I KNOW better. And ONLY KNOW this through the Word and the Spirit. For this IS what we have been offered. Beware of JUDGEMENT, for it is NOT within our capabilities to offer it RESPONSIBLY.

MEC

 

[unred typo]

aLoneVoice wrote:
I will admit upfront, that I did not read beyond this quote.

Please provide Scriptural evidence that

a) the pagan is guided by the Holy Spirit to love and good works

b) that God judges based on the "light he has"

Doctrines in and of themselves do not save - but the correct doctrine placed in correct action does.

I’m sorry for the length of this. I hope you will read past the first snag that grips your prejudices. It won’t be what you’re used to hearing, I’m afraid.

Forget ‘us’ and ‘them’ for just a moment, if it is possible to imagine that we are all in the same human family, sons of Adam, sons of Noah, part of the world loved by God.

Romans 1:17-20 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I know you are used to seeing these verses in a different light (the negative) but they are applicable to your request in a positive way as well. Notice that what can be known of God can be seen around us and that God reveals himself to all men everywhere. How does God reveal himself to us but through our senses, in our hearts and minds by the witness of his Spirit? You rely on the Bible to find God and you are so dependant upon this wonderful crutch that you can hardly even imagine that God can communicate in any other way.

Expand your horizons. We see the power of God in nature. Not just the creation genius and the magnificence of his strength, but the power of love against the forces of evil. The tiniest creature defending her offspring to the death against the onslaught of a mega beast is an inspirational testimony of the sacrificial love that exists in God’s creation. Where did that love come from? God is love. God is the source of love. Love is one of the invisible things of God. How can you miss that? Because you are completely focused on the written word.

Romans 2:4 Or despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance, not being buttonholed by some zealot. God speaks in love and we who were created in his image, respond to the display of love. We were wired that way. Not just civilized man but all mankind responds to love.

Now look at Acts 2:16 -17 & 2:39. “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

You can see from these verses the gift of the Spirit is for all flesh and to all who are afar off. This is not to say that God dumps the Holy Spirit on every person, regardless of their heart’s condition, but it shows that God is not limiting his spirit to a few followers in the mideast. Simon the sorcerer found it was unavailable to be used for gain.

We know there is no respect of persons with God, ( Romans 2:11 ) why do you think God would limit his Spirit to just believers who have heard the gospel preached?

Consider these verses:

Romans 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Zechariah 9:9-10 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. As for thee also, by the blood of your covenant I have sent forth your prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Galatians 3:7-9
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

How did Abraham come to faith in God? He didn’t turn to Hebrews 12 during an evangelical meeting. God spoke to him. He obeyed God’s voice. That’s what faith is. Is it so hard to believe that those who have never held a Bible nor heard a preacher could have faith in the witness of the Spirit? Do you think God cannot function without a fundamental Baptist (or *insert your favorite denomination here* ) preacher?

Galatians 3
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Romans 15:21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

Romans 3:28-30
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Romans 9:29-31
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. AV - I understand your position, and I thought your post about Practical vs Position was well articulated. I happen to agree with your position.

2. At the same time, I can understand where some come from in regards to believing that OSAS means that one can do whatever they want. "Hey, I am saved. I said a prayer. I raised my hand at the alter call. So, it doesn't matter what I do - I am saved."

3. Even though I agree with OSAS - I would argue that that abuse of OSAS calls into question a person's understanding of the grace of God. We are not to mock or tempt God.

4. Therefore, that is why I would suggest that we work to building up one another in Christ - and seeking to live the Christian life.

1. Thanks Alonevoice. 8-)

2. I also understand - thanks to some "dirty" saints or professing "saints" this goes on.

3. I agree - if a "saint" can live "happily" in sin with no remorse then I question as to whether a true work of grace ever happened. A saint can live in sin for a time but he should be miserable with the Spirit hammering him relentlessly and the Spirit should bring him back.

4. The purpose of this thread was to discuss the work of justification and the results - I believe if this werer settled it would lead towrrads more holy living.

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

God bless ya' my friend :D

 

[Drew]

Also, when the quote says "it occurs on the basis of ‘works’ in Paul’s redefined sense." The text says just the exact opposite of Paul. Romans 8:4-5 says.
4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness
Notice how these two verses are set up as antithesis. Each verse begins with a statement about works. Paul is saying that the reward of works is is "debt." Justification is not out of works and your author did say this is his reading of Paul.

I would like to challenge the above post about what Romans 4:4-5 is really talking about (note that the text in question is from Romans 4 not 8). I admit that I am using an argument from NT Wright which I have condensed. Due to space limitations some things are merely asserted (without supporting argument). So this is really more of a "plausibility" case than anything else. However, I think it is good to consider views that challenge the "received wisdom" about what this text really means.

I will begin with some assertions that will be my starting assumptions.

- Israel was supposed to be vehicle through which God's effort to redeem creation would be realized;
- God made a covenant with Abraham to this effect;
- Israel failed;
- God is always faithful to his covenant so He needs to find a way to still have "Israel" be the saving vehicle;
- Jesus is the solution - He "becomes Israel", thus ensuring that God's covenant is met through "Israel";
- The righteousness of God as per Romans 3:21-31 is not Christ's righteousness as imputed to us;
- Instead, it is God's own inherent righteousness as a "covenant keeper".

From a perspective based upon the above assertions, Romans 4 is not an "Old Testament proof" of justification by faith (as I believe mondar is stating). Instead, Romans 4 is all about God's faithfulness as a convenant-keeper. In this respect, Romans 4 amplfies on material in Roman 3:21-23 with, and this is important, the "righteousness of God" interpreted not as "imputed righteousness", but God's righteousness as covenant keeper.

If, in Romans 3:21-31, Paul is really talking about God's righteousness as covenant keeper, and not talking about how an individual gets "saved" or justified (this the widely held interpretation), then, quite, naturally, Paul has to return to the fundamental covenantal passage and argue in detail for a meaning to the promises that has come true by the death and resurrection of Jesus. In this case, and with specific reference to Romans 4, the focus is clear: Abraham is indeed the "father" of the covenant people, but he is not the father "according to the flesh". He is the father of all, Gentile and Jew alike, who believe that God raised Jesus.

Here is a proposal of what Romans 4:1 really means in light of the context in which it appears: "What then shall we say, Have we found Abraham to be our forefather according to the flesh?". The implied answer is "no". Consider the possibility that the whole of Romans 4 hinges on the question: "Does Romans 3:21-31 mean that we Christians (Jews and Gentiles alike) now discover that we are to be members of the fleshly family of Abraham?".

And now we get to the Romans 4 passage that mondar has addressed. On the view that NT Wright proposes, Romans 4:2-8 answers the question of the preceding paragraph with a "no" - since works of Torah are clearly not involved as demarcating Abraham (or David for that matter) as God's covenant people.

And now I will directly quote NT Wright

This reading of Romans 4 suggests that the discussion of “works,†“reward,†“debt,†and so forth in verse. 3-4 functions as a metaphor within the wider categories of “works of Torah†(i.e., badges of Jewish ethnic covenant membership). Rom 4:3-8 is sometimes cited as evidence that Paul did after all occasionally write as though he agreed with Martin Luther, as though the real issue he faced was the possibility of people trying to “earn†justification by “good works,†by successful moral effort. The (“forâ€Â) at the start of v. 2 suggests otherwise. The “justification by works†of which v. 2 speaks is clearly an explanation of something in v. 1; and v. 1, as we saw, raised the question not whether or not Abraham was a good moralist but whether those who are in Christ have become Abraham’s family according to the flesh. I suggest, therefore, that the metaphor of “earning†by “working,†which Paul exploits in verses. 3-8, is secondary, occurring to Paul’s mind not because he is thinking about the propriety or otherwise of moral effort, but because he has been speaking of “works†in connection with “works of Torah†in the sense already outlined, and now sees a way of ramming the point home.

If this argument is correct, we generally misread Romans 8:3-5 because we look at it atomistically and fail to carefully ask "what question is Paul really addressing in the text?". I believe that we assume that Paul is simply talking about "personal salvation". I propose that Paul is addressing a different question altogether - whether Abraham is our father (all Christians) according to the the flesh or in some other way? And the answer is the latter - he is our father in virtue of his faith in God.

 

[Guest]

unred typo - you are taking verses out of context and not respecting who those verses were written to!

The Bible is a book written for the Christian - within the Scriptures one can find salvation - but ultimately it is the responsibility of a believer to share the good news with an unbeliever, the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever and open his/her eye to the truths found within the Scriptures.

You are attempting to take verses that are meant for Christians, believers, and apply them to unbelievers.

Or are you advocating a form of UR?

 

[AVBunyan]

This thread has gone on for 24 pages - the purpose of the thread was to discuss what true justification is (the saint's position in Christ) and what God did to the believer at the point of salvation. Instead the ole', "Ye, but you can still lose it....you are just saying you can live anyway you want...You know what Hebrews and Matthew say about losing it...."

I do not believe the OP was even addressed except for a couple of folks and yet this thing goes on for 24 pages!!! :o I was hoping someone would at least seek to define the word justification for a start.

Until the doctrine of justification can be discussed then I, for one, don't care to go on to discuss a practical walk when some folks just can't get justification first.

I believe it is time to leave - getting nowhere. I made an attempt to come back but I'm not bringing anything positive to this forum - just chaos. :crazyeyes:

If some of you folks want to be able to "lose it" then go for it.

Bye folks

 

[MarkT]

There was no question, Mark. Just an observation regarding the lack of brotherly kindness when discussing doctrinal differences. I guess if I were to ask a question regarding this topic, it would be "If a person believes in OSAS, does that mean they are not a Christian?" It may be easier to make my point once that is answered.

I don't know. An abbreviation doesn't tell me anything. Once saved always saved is an illogical position. All it says is the same thing twice; like, if you're saved, then you're saved. Even that is meaningless. What do you mean when you say you believe you are saved? It's like saying you believe you are happy. Even worse, you believe you believe. There's no wisdom in OSAS.

 

[Drew]

Hello AVB:

As you know, I have addressed the issue of "justification" head on, largely by representing the views of NT Wright on the matter. In fact I have gone to some lengths to deal with this very issue of justification. I know that you have presented some objections which I have yet to respond to. I hope to do so. So do not despair - there are indeed some of us who are addressing your OP.


Edited: Off Topic


Edit made by Atonement

 

[Drew]

Re:

What is your response to NT Wright's arguments which seem to assert that the "final verdict" re justification is delivered at the end of one's life lived?

I believe your writer missed who these folks are - I believe Paul is referring to those Gentiles prior to when the law was given in the OT.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Paul is not dealing with the individual in the body of Christ or even the body of Christ of Ephesians so the writer's argument is out of context. Those folks in vs. 7 are not us today.

Here is a response to your take on who is being talked about in Romans 2. This is material written by a friend of mine, who is much more familiar with NT Wright than I.

Wright would say that Romans 2 makes three points: that Gentiles are lost without the law and we see the evidence in their corrupt lives; that Jews are lost with the Law because they are unable to live up to it so all the Torah can do is condemn them; and finally, that it is possible for Gentiles to live up to Torah without being Jewish, because the Law is written on their hearts by the Spirit.

On this basis Wright believes that Paul is now writing about Christian Gentiles who are being more fully Jewish than the Jews, able to keep the law by the Spirit, as was prophesized long before. The only people capable of doing what is pleasing to God are those with his Spirit.

 

[Vic C.]

I think you are both wrong. :P It can't be pre-law, because law is mentioned in the passage. It doesn't pertain to gentile Christians either. The entire passage hinges on verse 14, specifically these words:

"do by nature the things contained in the law"

How is this so? Well, they are following the "law" written in their heart through their "good" conscience, not even knowing or realizing God put it there. My belief is this is God's way of making provisions for those who lived and died and never heard of the Good News.

Anyway, that is my interpretation of this passage. 8-)

 

[Drew]

I think you are both wrong. :P It can't be pre-law, because law is mentioned in the passage. It doesn't pertain to gentile Christians either. The entire passage hinges on verse 14, specifically these words:

"do by nature the things contained in the law"

How is this so? Well, they are following the "law" written in their heart through their "good" conscience, not even knowing or realizing God put it there. My belief is this is God's way of making provisions for those who lived and died and never heard of the Good News.

Anyway, that is my interpretation of this passage. 8-)

I do not see how verse 14 does any damage to my assertion that the target audience is Gentile Christians. Here is verse 14 in the NIV:

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law"

What precisely from this verse causes you to conclude that the people being talked about are specifically those who never heard the Good News? Are you not reading "do not have the Law" as "never heard the Law"? The set of people who "do not have the Law" includes the people you refer to plus others - Gentiles who have heard the Good News but, by virtue of being Gentiles are not subject to the dictates of the Law. Besides, you seem to overlook the teaching (as I understand it) that the Law is now written on the hearts of all believers- so this would include all Gentiles, not just ones that had never heard the Good News. You seem to be assuming that if Fred "does X 'by nature'", this means that Fred could not have heard the Law since presumably Fred would then do X "by the Law". But God has written the law on the hearts of all who believe, regardless of whether they have heard the law or not.

Besides, was not Paul writing the book of Romans to the church in Rome? It would seem likely that he was addressing that subset of the Gentiles - and they (obviously) would have heard the Good News.

 

[Vic C.]

What precisely from this verse causes you to conclude that the people being talked about are specifically those who never heard the Good News?

"do by nature the things contained in the law"

Gee, I though me singling out that portion of the verse would have made my conclusions obvious. I don't see believes in Christ mentioned anywhere in this passage. I don't see just believers as having the law written upon their heart; we have the Spirit indwelling in us. It seems that just isn't enough for some. I see nonbelievers having this "law" written upon their hearts also, but some just don't act according to (do by nature) what is seared into the conscience. They go "against the grain" so to speak. There are verses all over the Bible stating no one, (that's NO ONE) will have an excuse. So, if they died never knowing Jesus, what provisions do you think God made for them, or do you too just check them off as predestined reprobates?

(... and no, this is not some sort of UR statement, so please don't go there)

 

[Drew]

What precisely from this verse causes you to conclude that the people being talked about are specifically those who never heard the Good News?

"do by nature the things contained in the law"

Gee, I though me singling out that portion of the verse would have made my conclusions obvious. I don't see believes in Christ mentioned anywhere in this passage. I don't see just believers as having the law written upon their heart; we have the Spirit indwelling in us. It seems that just isn't enough for some. I see nonbelievers having this "law" written upon their hearts also, but some just don't act according to (do by nature) what is seared into the conscience. They go "against the grain" so to speak. There are verses all over the Bible stating no one, (that's NO ONE) will have an excuse. So, if they died never knowing Jesus, what provisions do you think God made for them, or do you too just check them off as predestined reprobates?

The fact that a person, let's say "Fred", does something "by nature" - and by implication not in accordance with the Law - in no way justifies a conclusion that Fred is part of the set of persons who have not heard the gospel. He could also be a person who has heard the gospel and knows the law. Why do you think this possibility precluded? I think that Fred has simply been transformed so that he is a new creature who now does things in accordance with his redeemed nature (see following para) even though the law is still known to Him. In fact I think that there is every reason to believe that Paul is talking about gentile Christians who have indeed heard the Good News, and I will attempt to explain why.

The law failed to accomplish its purpose, to give life, because it was acting on "damaged material" - mankind whose very nature had been corrupted by the fall. When a person becomes a believer, a fundamentally new nature is available to that person. One of the attributes of the "believer as transformed into the new creature" is the fact that the Law is now written on his heart. In case it is not clear, I am arguing that having the Law written on one's heart is a property of every believing Christian. You seem to be arguing that the people whose hearts are written on are those who have never heard the Good News and we should therefore conclude that these people are the subjects of the text from Romans 2.

I assert that the global picture of God's plan of redemption supports the view that it is "renewed man in general" who gets the law written on his heart and that Romans 2:14 is talking about gentile Christians.

You seem to draw a distinction between "having the Holy Spirit" and "having the law written on your heart". I suspect that this is a false distinction and, interestingly enough, I see connections between this false distinction (as I see it) and the false distinction between the "spiritual" and the "physical". I will not write more about this in the present post.

You point out the absence of an explicit statement to the effect that "this material is about Christians". The absence of such an explicit declaration does not seem to vey helpful to your position, since there is no clear statement that the material is about "those who have never heard the Good News".

 

[unred typo]

by aLoneVoice on Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:51 pm
unred typo - you are taking verses out of context and not respecting who those verses were written to!

The Bible is a book written for the Christian - within the Scriptures one can find salvation - but ultimately it is the responsibility of a believer to share the good news with an unbeliever, the Holy Spirit convicts the unbeliever and open his/her eye to the truths found within the Scriptures.

Of course these verses are written to believers! They are taken from writings from disciples and prophets to believers. The entire body of scripture from which the Bible was compiled was written to or for those who believe in God. You asked for scriptural proof of the concept that a) the pagan is guided by the Holy Spirit to love and good works and b) that God judges based on the "light he has". I believe I have done that.

Let’s examine the first few verses I gave you in that regard. After that, you’re on your own.

Romans 1:17-20 “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:â€Â

“For the wrath of God†is not just for believers is it? It says, “against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,†which includes both those who have heard the gospel of God through preachers and those who have never heard. It goes on to say that what may be known of God is manifest in them; and that God has showed it unto them. It’s not just that creation is there to behold, but that God himself shows it unto all men. What he’s saying here is that our hike through the majesty of his creation is a guided tour. How does he do this but by his spirit speaking to our hearts and minds? He doesn’t come down in a chariot of lightning bolts to show us the various attributes of himself in what he has made.

Now notice that the truth is held in unrighteousness. I believe that means that those who are unrighteous hold back the truth from bringing conviction of their sin. They don’t want to know there is a God out there to whom they will have to answer, so they suppress the truth given to them. The fact I want to stress here is that the truth has been given to them. God convicts the world of sin first of all, but he displays his power, goodness and his right to deal with sinners through the mighty works he has created. Those who are righteous, or follow the leading of the spirit, don‘t suppress the truth but instead embrace it. ( OK, *insert your ‘filthy rags’ verses here* and I‘ll show how those verses are completely out of context ) When a person who has never heard of the one true God embraces the truth spoken to his heart by the spirit, they are following Christ, because the message of Christ is the message of God and the message of God is the truth spoken by the Holy Spirit. I don’t know how to explain it any clearer.

It is the goodness of God that the spirit witnesses to men’s hearts. He brings conviction of sin. What is sin? It can be basically boiled down to not loving one another. Now look at Romans 2:4 …. “despise you the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?†This goodness of God is the attribute of love. God is love. John says that the one who walks in love, abides in light and is in Christ.

Do you have to know the name of Christ, Jesus, Yeshua, Elohim, El, Adonai, Kanna, El-Olam, Yahweh, YHWH, etc. in order to follow the Holy Spirit and to be in him? Why would you? Do you have to know the name of the manufacturer that built the plane you are in to be in the plane? No, the reality is if you are in the plane, you don’t have to know the pilot, who made the seats or any of the attributes of the plane to be in it. Read 1 John. John says if you walk in love, you are in Christ.

Now look at Acts 2.

Acts 2:16 -17 “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, said God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

This was written to the Jews. Was it only for the Jews? Obviously not. The Gentiles are certainly included here. You can see from these verses the gift of the Spirit is for all flesh to both those who are near and to those who are afar off. We know God is not a respecter of persons, ( Romans 2:11 ) so why do you think God would limit his Spirit to just believers who have heard the gospel preached? Why couldn’t he pour his spirit onto whomever he wanted to, to declare his salvation? Look at the time God poured his spirit onto King Saul who was trying to murder David. You can’t make rules for God.

Here are some verses that were given to the Jews alone but were then extended to all people everywhere who embrace his truths and repent of their sin:

33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God,
and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Zachariah 9 exclaims that he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth. Sure, he uses prophets to do that but he is not limited to prophets. He has his Holy Spirit to teach us what is good and what the Lord requires of us. We only need to go and tell the heathen that living a life of love and mercy has the promise of eternal life which was made possible by the blood of Christ. Jesus said those that do truth, come to the light because their deeds are done in God. Those who follow the leading of the Spirit are convicted of sin and do the truth that Jesus taught but without a preacher, how will they have the assurance that God has forgiven them and how will they know what he has promised to those who walk in love?

 

[MarkT]

Reply with quoteReport this post by Drew on Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:58 am

Veritas wrote:
...Ephesians 2:8 is clear as well:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.

The very real problem is that interpreting the Scriptures is not as simple as many people make it out to be. It would be nice if it were otherwise, but I think it clearly is not.

Whether we realize it or not, we attach a certain mean to the word "faith" in the above text (Ephesian 2:8). I humbly submit that the meaning many North American evangelical protestants attach to this word is this: a single one time act of intellectual assent to the proposition that Jesus died for my sins and that He is Lord of the Universe.

Where does that "definition" come from? From the Scriptures? I highly doubt it. If things were this simple, how is it that we have texts like these ones:

1 Corinthians 9:25-27:

Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.â€Â

In verse 25, Paul describes salvation as a “crown that will last forever.†Whereas an athlete trains hard in order to compete for a prize that does not last, the reward for training our bodies for the work of God is salvation that endures forever. What is interesting to note in this passage, however, is what Paul says in verse 27. Paul states,

“No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.â€Â

Despite his intense conversion to Christianity on the road to Damascus, Paul expresses in verse 27 a legitimate concern that he could lose his salvation. He mentions at the end of verse 27 the possibility that he could be “disqualified for the prize.†This is strong evidence that suggests Paul did not believe in eternal security.

Philippians 2:12

“Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyedâ€â€not only in my presence, but now much more in my absenceâ€â€continue to work out your salvation with fear and tremblingâ€Â

2 Peter 3:17

“Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position."

The nature of "saving faith" strikes me as a very complex question. But warnings like the ones above make it very hard for me to accept the "eternal securirty" position.

So perhaps we need to ask ourselves the following question: Where, exaclty, do we get our ideas about what "faith" is really constituted by?

Drew

If you would just consider that Jesus was the Word of God and his teachings are the words of God you might want to focus on what Jesus said. If you understand Jesus then you will understand Paul. I mean I like what Paul said and I can see his words are consistent with the words of God but you're interpreting his words and you seem to be ignoring the words of God. This is not as difficult as you imagine. The words that Jesus gave us are the words of life. Some people can not bear to hear the words. I guess they will endlessly debate what Paul said and not ever quote Jesus. But the words of Jesus are far more important than the words of Paul though the words of Paul are consistent with the gospel and the Scriptures/the OT Scriptures.

Faith is just trust. Perhaps in this world trust is something only children do. But then again Jesus said you have to believe anything is possible like children do before you can enter the kingdom of God. Call it confidence. Call it assurance. Faith is simply believing without seeing. It's hearing the words and believing. The words of God and the teachings as well as the promise and the predictions are what we have faith in.

 

[AVBunyan]

If you would just consider that Jesus was the Word of God and his teachings are the words of God you might want to focus on what Jesus said. If you understand Jesus then you will understand Paul.

Well - I thought I was out of here but might as well see this thread through since I started it.

Mark - I believe you are incorrect here - this is a common mistake - what saith the scriptures?

2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Lord Jesus Christ gave Paul the latest instructions - We must consider what the Lord gave to Paul first if weare to have understanding - People go to the Gospels first (those red letters) and think because Christ spoke thme they have more advanced revelation - Advanced revelation comes from Paul. Paul's words are the words of God given by God.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

Jesus told you by Paul to consider Paul first - how much bible can you take?

God bless

PS - now folks - don't misrepresent me here - I believe 2 Tim. 3:16 - I do not set aside everybody but Paul - I judge all by Paul's words (God's words) first. I'll explain more if anybody is interested.

 

[Drew]

If Romans 2 is addressing Gentile Christians, as I believe it is, then I cannot see how one can avoid the "justification by works" implications of the following (Romans 2:5-7):

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.

It has been claimed that the entire Romans 2 passage hinges on verse 14-15:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves. in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them.

More specifically, I believe that it has been argued that the people referred to in verses 14-15 are people who have never heard the Good News. Since these people cannot have placed their faith in Jesus, God will judge this special people in accordance with what Romans 2:5-7 says. Such a proposal would indeed allow people other than those who have never heard the gospel to avoid the "justification by works" implications of Romans 2:5-7.

However, I think that a powerful case can be made that those who "get the Law written on their hearts" are not those who have never heard, but members of the church (as understood to contain both Gentiles and Jews). Consider this from Jeremiah 31:

Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Plus the notion of circumcision of the heart as per Deut 30:6

Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

I think such texts make it clear - the people being addressed in Romans 2;14-15 are not those "who have never heard the Good News", but rather good old "Gentile Christians" (as the text itself says anyway).