For those who think they can “lose itâ€Â…

[Free]

Here they are:

Besides the perversion you use to twist the scriptures you are going to tell me you never wander and swerve from the faith at times or have you reached a state of perfection? Plus wandering from the faith is not the same as losing one's standing/position in Christ.

Why is it that you put so much study into what you think is true and so little into everything else? These passages are not about mere wanderings or swervings where one remains in the faith; these passages clearly show that they speak of a complete departing from the faith, a divorcing, apostasy. Allow me to make it clearer, even using the KJV.

From crosswalk.com's Bible study tools:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1, KJV)

"fall away", "depart" - Gk. aphistemi - "to desert, withdraw from one, to fall away, become faithless to shun, flee from"; from:

1. apo:
of separation
of local separation, after verbs of motion from a place i.e. of departing, of fleeing, ...
of separation of a part from the whole
where of a whole some part is taken
of any kind of separation of one thing from

2. histemi:
to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set
to bid to stand by, [set up]
in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
to place
to make firm, fix establish
...
to be of a steadfast mind of quality, one who does not hesitate, does not waiver


For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10, KJV)

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22, KJV)

"to seduce" - Gk. apoplanao - "to lead away from the truth, to error, to go astray, stray away from"; from:

1. apo - see above

2. planao:
to cause to stray, to lead astray, lead aside from the right way
to go astray, wander, roam about metaph.
to lead away from the truth, to lead into error, to deceive
to be led into error
to be led aside from the path of virtue, to go astray, sin
to sever or fall away from the truth
of heretics
to be led away into error and sin


Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21, KJV)

"erred" - Gk. Astocheo - "to deviate from, miss (the mark)"; from:

1. A - negative paritcle

2. stoichos - an aim

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thess. 2:1-3, KJV)

"falling away" - Gk. Apostasia - "a falling away, defection, apostasy "; interestingly, this is the feminie form of the neuter Apostasion, which means "divorce, repudiation a bill of divorce".

It doesn't get clearer that at some point there will be a large departing from the faith. History supports this by showing that many departed from the faith during the early persecutions. Modern history supports this by the numerous atheists who were once Christians, even some on these forums.

More importantly, this proves my assertion that on an individual basis, one can lose their salvation.

 

[AVBunyan]

Here they are: From crosswalk.com's Bible study tools:

1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1, KJV)

"fall away", "depart" - Gk. aphistemi - "to desert, withdraw from one, to fall away, become faithless to shun, flee from"; from:

2. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:10, KJV)

3. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22, KJV)

4. Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen. (1 Timothy 6:21, KJV)

5. 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thess. 2:1-3, KJV)

More importantly, this proves my assertion that on an individual basis, one can lose their salvation.

This is it Free – again…if one has an understanding of justification and right division there is no losing of salvation here.

1. You have yet to prove with all the Greek that a departing from the faith is a redeemed saint undoing all that God did –
a. A saint departs from the faith anytime he ceases to not walk be faith.
b. The saint can depart from the faith as a whole when he turns his back on revealed truth because of sin or a catastrophic event (divorce, loss of job, loss of loved one, etc.). A man committed fornication where Paul calls him home but his spirit saved. 1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The man didn’t lose it.

Just because a man has the power to live like a lost man doesn’t mean he has the power to undo the work of God. Free – with feeling now – be honest – don’t you think that if Paul believed losing it was a scriptural doctrine then don’t you think he’d at least write a clear chapter on it?

2. When you get up in the morning a worry whether or not your car is going to start or not you’ve just erred from the faith because God says: Phil 4:6 Be careful for nothing;. Saints err all the time. Free – with feeling now – be honest – don’t you think that if Paul believed losing it was a scriptural doctrine then don’t you think he’d at least write a clear chapter on it?

3. Mark is talking about the future tribulation not the church age (wasn’t around then) where a whole different set of rules and doctrines are en affect. 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Get your ages right.

4. See #2.

5. Context is the 2nd advent (coming of the Lord) see #3. Thessalonians is an Acts transitional book where the 2nd advent was being looked for. Get your ages right Free.

Free – erring and falling away and other terms similar doesn’t mean loss of salvation – that’s what you want it to say – not sure why you want to be able to lose it. Free, if you and others would spend as much time seeking to see the security in justification as you do in searching far and wide to find passages that hint at losing it then this issue would go away and you would really be FREE!

Now will you explain these verses to me – rarely does anybody seek to explain my verses:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Go for it – I’m all ears.

BTW Free - leave the Greek alone for it never sheds any light on nothin' - stick with the AV for it sheds light on your Greek/Hebrew. :-D

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

I also think his understanding of certain positions regarding losing one's salvation is ignorant -- he sets up straw men to prove the validity of his understanding of Scripture.

I initially had planned to respond in detail to drew and free’s posts but just don’t have the time nor the zeal anymore for these kinds of endless discussions. I’ve presented lengthy and detailed posts on Justification, Position vs. Practical, and more to no avail. So I will post below and seek to close shop.

1. How is the sinner justified before God? This can be covered in one or two sentences with as little as two or three verses.

The key word was “how†– once the “how†is addressed then man can keep his mouth shut on any part he thinks he has in his justification. Many of you here still want to have you part in this matter – you are waiting until you are raised up to have God look back to see how you faired – in other words you are saying… “it ain’t over till the fat lady singsâ€Â, for you keep bringing up what one might do to lose it which means you are saying salvation is not a one time work. Now back to your future standing, you are waiting until you are raised up to have God look back to see how you faired, how you endured, how you kept the faith, how you kept yourself from falling away, how you asked forgiveness, how your repentance was, and all the other scenarios you have taken from every part of the book and misapplied them to yourself today. The bottom line is that you are counting on God to look back at your life and say, “well done…come on in!†Unfortunately you will hear just the opposite, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:†Why? Because you never rested on what Christ did for you – you never really believed Christ died for all your sins because the ones that you could commit that would cause you to lose it were not covered unless you did your part in re-applying the blood such as your asking for forgiveness or your repenting.

Now, on to the work at hand - You missed what justification is and how the sinner is justified.

Justify - In theology, to pardon and clear form guilt; to absolve or acquit from guilt and merited punishment, and to accept as righteous on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.

Justified (past tense) - In theology – 1. Where the sinner is pardoned and cleared from guilt; 2. absolved or acquitted from guilt and merited punishment, 3. and is accepted as righteous 4. on account of the merits of the Savior, or by the application of Christ's atonement to the offender.
Let’s break it down:
1. “where the sinner is pardoned and cleared from guilt†– past tense – the work has been done – settled as far as God is concerned.
Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:
I Cor. 15 Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Done deal – Problem is you folks do not believe it is a done deal – no where are there conditions or what if scenarios - if there were “what ifs†then Paul would have written chapters on the subject – he didn’t – You folks invented the chapters of “what ifs†and pulled your theories from other parts of the book that are not even dealing with NT justification after Calvary. Plus you folks only believe your past sins up to the point of ‘your decision†were dealt with. BTW – you folks are hung on sins and forgot that sin is also the issue – You folks just deal with the fruits and missed the “root†problem which is sin itself – that thing which lies within you.

2. “absolved or acquitted from guilt and merited punishment†– again past tense. No possibility of future judgment for the saint.

3. Here is one’s Position/Standing – this is how God sees the saint now. In God’s eyes right now I am righteous (Rom 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed,; 1 Cor 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption because I have been put in Christ and Christ is righteous so therefore whatever is true of Christ here is also true of me…forever. Point 3 is my 2nd challenge…â€ÂWhat happened at Calvary?†I won’t spend much time here for until you get justification and how then there is no need to spend much time here. Any rate – the saint is perfect in Christ and that is the issue. You folks believe you are making yourself righteous – you are hung up on the walk not the wealth. You are making your walk the basis for your wealth – you missed Ephesians.

4. “on account of the merits of the Savior†– here is the “how†– it was by the faith of Jesus Christ - Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, - your faith didn’t do squat. The only reason you believed is because God regenerated you and opened up your eyes so you were even able to see and then believe the Paul’s gospel (2 Cor. 4:3-5) – Quit taking credit – you did nothing! If you were saved it was because it pleased God to call you and save you – just sit down, quit your boasting and thank God! If God did the justifying then God will do the keeping – God will not certainly turn over what he did to a bunch like us!
Eph. 1:13 - ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:
The faith you are counting on to live by and to hang on is not even your faith:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So, how was the sinner justified – God did the justifying - Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. – You can’t – what God did only God could do and if God did the work your great Christian life will add nothing to it nor your lack of faith and multitude of sins undo it.

Summary
1. The sinner is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ because of his shed blood. The saint is put in Christ and there he abides in heaven through all eternity. God does the justifying…not your actions or lack of actions – Justification is a present day, one time event and not a future event. The sin and sins issue was settled once and for all at Calvary. You had no part in it – God gets the glory.

2. The miraculous works that God did are up to 39 and are found in Romans thru Philemon and, as much as you think you can….you cannot undo what God hath wrought.

3. Regarding, “positions regarding losing one's salvation is ignorant “ - Yes, I know all the verses you folks pull out from all over that have absolutely nothing to do with Pauline justification – I’ve heard all your Judas and Demas’ examples, etc. but you wouldn’t even be bringing them up if you understood justification and rightly divided the truth – 2 Tim. 2:7.

The message of salvation today was given by Christ himself to Paul and is found in (I Cor. 15:1-5). Why would you go back to a place prior to this message being given and was not even in place at that time to look for verses to lose a salvation that wasn’t even in place yet???!!! The disciples didn’t even understand the death, burial, and resurrection yet! Luke 18:34 And they understood none of these things:

God bless

 

[Free]

This is it Free – again…if one has an understanding of justification and right division there is no losing of salvation here.

Your understanding of justification is incorrect because you are not taking into account what those verses are saying. Correct it.

1. You have yet to prove with all the Greek that a departing from the faith is a redeemed saint undoing all that God did –
a. A saint departs from the faith anytime he ceases to not walk be faith.
b. The saint can depart from the faith as a whole when he turns his back on revealed truth because of sin or a catastrophic event (divorce, loss of job, loss of loved one, etc.). A man committed fornication where Paul calls him home but his spirit saved. 1 Cor 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The man didn’t lose it.

Do you really believe that a Christian can be seduced by spirits and believe "doctrines of devils", thereby departing from the faith, and still be a Christian? You must be joking. The very idea is absurd. Look at the context in which "departing from the faith" is used.

Do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian Church?

Free – with feeling now – be honest – don’t you think that if Paul believed losing it was a scriptural doctrine then don’t you think he’d at least write a clear chapter on it?

I think he was clear on it, you don't.

3. Mark is talking about the future tribulation not the church age (wasn’t around then) where a whole different set of rules and doctrines are en affect. 2 Tim 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Get your ages right.

Prove from Scripture that in the future tribulation there will be "a whole different set of rules and doctrines" in effect. That's a new one; not a very good one, but a new one. Your poor argument against this verse actually proves that I am right in my assertion that it means some can and will lose their salvation. You understand that and know it but your only rebuttal is that there will be "a whole different set of rules and doctrines" in effect.

If Christians can lose their salvation then, they can lose it now.

5. Context is the 2nd advent (coming of the Lord) see #3. Thessalonians is an Acts transitional book where the 2nd advent was being looked for. Get your ages right Free.

The age is irrelevent. If people can lose their salvation then, they can lose it now. Why is it that every dispy who does not have a good answer for something uses the argument that it belongs to such and such an age, but not that one? Why? It's poor theology and poor reasoning.

Free – erring and falling away and other terms similar doesn’t mean loss of salvation – that’s what you want it to say

The use of a term of "divorce" doesn't mean losing ones salvation? A plain understanding of "falling away" means that one no longer belongs to that which they fell away from. It does not get any clearer or easier than that.

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote:

1. What is scriptural justification?
2. Name at least 5 things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â.

#1 was kind of addressed by a very few.
#2 was barely touched on by just a few which was part of the evidence I needed to prove what Vic said I’ve been saying for years here and other places: “..people don't understand fully what happened at the Cross"..and some are blinded to the work at Calvary and are still unregerate.

Again - the reason you folks still think you can lose it is becasue you still do not grasp the above 2 points. The books of Ephesians and Colossians are closed books to many of you here.

So...give me some time and if anyone is interested they can check back later to view my response on the matter.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

1.Scriptual justification is the declaring of the sinlessness of the person. A person who dies being sinless, will be risen from the dead in a glorified body as proof that they have been justified from all sin. The resurrection of Christ is an example of that. Those who follow Christ are placed in Christ spiritually. This is done by substitution of the offering of the blood of Christ that covers the person’s sins who repents of his former sins and lives in love instead of rebellious greed, pride and hatred toward God and others.

James 2:24
You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


2. Five things that God did to the sinner once he was “savedâ€Â:

• A. Sealed at the point they determine and vow to follow Christ for the rest of their lives? Can a seal be broken? A letter is sealed…can it be opened? A tomb is sealed… can you never open it again? A can of corn is sealed… does that mean we can’t open it? A seal just tells us if it has been spoiled, and assures us that outside influences that would spoil it or tamper with it have not occurred until it is opened by someone. You can break the seal.
  
  B. Enlightened to know the hope of his calling and the riches of the inheritance of the saints? This one might have power to keep you walking in the truth of the gospel but you have spoiled this one yourself with your OSAS doctrine. Knowing that you “are already saved†and “nothing can change that,†gives you license to sin, no matter how much you protest it does not.
  
  C. Quickened together with Christ, raised us up with him and made us to sit in heavenly places? How does this assure us of OSAS? We have life in Christ if we remain in Christ, just as a candle flame has life while sitting in a room with oxygen. If you remove the candle from oxygen, it will go out. If you return it quickly before the heat of the flame is gone, it will relight but if you keep it out too long, it will die and have to be relit.
  
  D. Ordained to walk in good works? We have been ordained to do good work if we have been hired for a job. Does that mean if we don’t do those good works we won’t get fired?
  
  E. Built into an inhabitation of God through the Spirit? Well, I don’t know how this makes me feel like I can’t lose my salvation. If I keep filling my house full of hatred, sin and filth, do you think that the Spirit of a Holy God is going to live within me? No, only if I continue to confess my sin and walk in love for others does the Spirit reside in me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

I hope this is sufficient to make you feel that I have addressed your OP. I think I did something similar before but I’m not going back to find it. Maybe if you didn’t put me on ignore you might get the answers you seek to your questions. :wink:

 

[AVBunyan]

Your understanding of justification is incorrect because you are not taking into account what those verses are saying. Correct it.

I will correct nothing - doesn't need correcting and you have yet to show me in over 4 years where I am wrong on justification.

Free, I was going to respond in detail but since you did not care comment on the scriptures I asked you look at then I see no reason to answer you. You asked me to comment on the scriptures and I did yet you will not comment on mine. :-?

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan on Sun Aug 26 wrote:
Free, I was going to respond in detail but since you did not care comment on the scriptures I asked you look at then I see no reason to answer you. You asked me to comment on the scriptures and I did yet you will not comment on mine.

BTW unred - I see you have posted - I trust you did not mean your post to be responded to by me. You are still on my ignore list.

No problem, Av. I didn’t expect you would have an answer. You didn’t before you had me on ‘ignore’ so why should it be any different now? If you had anything to say that actually addressed the point of my post, I would really be shocked. I answered your OP, which was some sort of attempt to convince those who believe they can lose their salvation that they indeed cannot, by quoting some precious promises that apply only to those who faithfully walk in love and good works and misuse them to assure those who are not following Christ that they need not worry. How does this exhort believers to love and good works, Av? ( rhetorical question )

 

[MarkT]

4. “on account of the merits of the Savior†– here is the “how†– it was by the faith of Jesus Christ - Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, - your faith didn’t do squat. The only reason you believed is because God regenerated you and opened up your eyes so you were even able to see and then believe the Paul’s gospel (2 Cor. 4:3-5) – Quit taking credit – you did nothing! If you were saved it was because it pleased God to call you and save you – just sit down, quit your boasting and thank God! If God did the justifying then God will do the keeping – God will not certainly turn over what he did to a bunch like us!
Eph. 1:13 - ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Eccl 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:
The faith you are counting on to live by and to hang on is not even your faith:
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

You'll have to tell me where you get this AV because my Bible, the RSV, says, 'We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified (reckoned righteous) by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ' Gal. 2:15 and 'I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.' Gal. 2:20 It doesn't say, 'the faith of Jesus Christ' or 'the faith of the Son of God'. In fact, if it did, it would make no sense at all and it would be inconsistent with everything Jesus taught.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. I answered your OP,
2. promises that apply only to those who faithfully walk in love and good works and misuse them to assure those who are not following Christ that they need not worry.
3. How does this exhort believers to love and good works, Av? ( rhetorical question )

Ok unred - you are back in business till this thread is done and I am out of here.

1. I appreciate you at least taking a shot at it.

2. Here is where you miss it - you are saying that those promises are only good if you faithfully walk thus showing that you are trusting in YOUR walk and not what Christ did at Calvary. The promises I listed have no conditions anywhere near them. My justification is based upon Christ alone not my faithful walk.

3. Exhort? The regenerated believer has the Spirit in them - Paul gives the promises - the believer desires out of love and debt to walk worthy of his vocation - Grace teaches him how to live godly not the law like you are implying - You might review Pilgrim's Progress where Christian is all the time running into those who seek to live by the law and not grace.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

You'll have to tell me where you get this AV because my Bible, the RSV, says,

Get rid of that Roman Catholic book you got there and get yourself a Bible, the AV, the one God has used and still uses.

That little phrase "faith of" in the AV has been changed to "faith in" in every new version thus shifting the emphasis from Christ to man - the difference between heaven and hell. Your faith in cannot justify. It is Christ's faith that justifies.

God bless

 

[unred typo]

AVBunyan wrote: on Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:08 am

Ok unred - you are back in business till this thread is done and I am out of here.

Very wise of you, Av. When someone is coming at me with a shovel, I never close my eyes, and I don’t put people on ‘ignore’ either. :-D

AVBunyan wrote:
1. I appreciate you at least taking a shot at it.

1. Thanks for your appreciation. You could really show it by actually addressing the post that deals with your OP and not just the post that I shot back to say I didn’t expect an answer to it. I wasn’t too far off. At least you didn’t try to reheat an old cut and paste from your library and try to pass that off as an answer. I appreciate that.

AVBunyan wrote:
2. Here is where you miss it - you are saying that those promises are only good if you faithfully walk thus showing that you are trusting in YOUR walk and not what Christ did at Calvary. The promises I listed have no conditions anywhere near them. My justification is based upon Christ alone not my faithful walk.

2. You’re right about this. This is the crux of where the whole point of the gospel goes awry. You think the entire salvation of man is an unconditional package deal that includes breakfast and free mileage for just a precious few chosen ones. The sacrifice of Christ is free and not based on any works that man does. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us, not of works lest any man should boast. We didn’t deserve it. The blood is free for use to any human who ever was born of Adam. His sin affected all, Jesus’ blood is effective for all. All are called to repentance. If you repent, the blood is there to fully remove your sin.

The promises are just for the chosen. Don’t despair. You, too, can be chosen if you follow Christ. The “preaching of the cross†is not just about what Jesus did, it’s about taking up your cross daily and following him. You think that it’s too hard? No, God will not suffer you to be tempted above what you are able to resist. You had a crappy childhood? He gives more grace to you. You can’t go it alone by yourself? His Holy Spirit is there to help you find your escape from sin, teach you to love one another, convict you of sin and answer your questions. You can trust him. He is there for anyone who wants to do God’s will, whoever they are, no matter how badly they messed up in the past. Is this not trusting in Christ and his sacrifice? If not, why not?

AVBunyan wrote:
3. Exhort? The regenerated believer has the Spirit in them - Paul gives the promises - the believer desires out of love and debt to walk worthy of his vocation - Grace teaches him how to live godly not the law like you are implying - You might review Pilgrim's Progress where Christian is all the time running into those who seek to live by the law and not grace.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

3. Yes, we are to exhort one another to love and good works. That’s how we bond together. That’s how we help the weak overcome their evil desires.

Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works
Hebrews 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Read the verses you quoted. The grace of God has appeared to all men, Av. Everyone is taught of God to love and good works, to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, to live soberly, righteously and godly. This is not just to the Jews nor the Christians but to all men everywhere. The Holy Spirit is available to all, especially those who want to know God, whoever they are. Those who walk in love for others are ‘in Christ’ and he is in them through the Spirit. That is what the Bible teaches.

The law of love is not the law of ordinances and legalism that the Pharisees thought would save them. They were never accused of loving their fellowman.

If you have time, please answer my post that deals extensively with your OP that I wrote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am. 5:40 am??? Probably wrote it in my sleep… :morning:

 

[AVBunyan]

1. You, too, can be chosen if you follow Christ.

2. If you have time, please answer my post that deals extensively with your OP that I wrote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am. 5:40 am???

1. Here is our main disagreement and you just can’t see it. One’s salvation is not dependent upon “if†– it is dependent upon Christ’s finished work at Calvary. What you’ve been saying (and it is very plain) is you believe Christ’s death and shed blood just opened up the door and then if the “saint†follows Christ then…then….only then he is saved. This is not twisting of your words this is what you said – see above quote. You said in order to be chosen you have to “follow Christâ€Â. This is “pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps†– this is works salvation no matter how you dress it up.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
a. You are hoping to be chosen in time based upon your following of Christ.
b. I was chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Summary – You adhere to a “conditional salvation†– You are pulling verses that are meat to be practical exhortations to the believer after he is saved and making them conditional for salvation. You just cannot seem to separate the Position vs. Practical.

2. I can see no reason to comment on your requested post due to:
A. Time constraints and…
B. Your confusion over #1 in this post – just flogging a dead horse until you admit to your works salvation setup that you have created. I know this sounds hard but we are going nowhere until this is settled.

God bless

 

[MarkT]

Get rid of that Roman Catholic book you got there and get yourself a Bible, the AV, the one God has used and still uses.

That little phrase "faith of" in the AV has been changed to "faith in" in every new version thus shifting the emphasis from Christ to man - the difference between heaven and hell. Your faith in cannot justify. It is Christ's faith that justifies.

Do you mean the ASV or the NASV? What are you calling the AV? If you mean the KJV, then I would agree. It does say the "faith of'. But then again the meaning of that must be consistent with what Jesus said. He said 'believe in me' in the KJV. He refers to 'the ones who believe in me' Mt.18:6 and he says, 'whoever believes in me shall never die' John 11:26 and 'believe in God, believe also in me.' John 14:1 Even Paul uses 'in Christ Jesus' in the same letter to the Galatians; 'For ye are all children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.' Gal. 3:26 KJV and again he says, 'I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus.' Eph. 1:15 KJV So Paul talks about 'our' faith and Jesus said, 'Your faith has made you well.' Mt. 9:22 and 'Great is thy faith, Mt.15:28 So Jesus talks about 'our' faith. So even the meaning of 'the faith of' becomes closer to 'faith in'. You don't have to go to different versions to find the meaning of a verse. There's so much redundancy, if you will, that even 'the faith of' can be acceptable because the proper useage of the word 'faith' would make the meaning of the verse evident. The word 'faith' is used when a promise is made, when words are spoken, when a covenant is created. In connection with 'the promise' is 'the faith' so that 'the faith' can often be used in place of 'the covenant' or 'the promise' or 'the words/teachings' of. I don't have a problem with the KJV; reading it, though I do think the RSV is easier to understand.

 

[unred typo]

by AVBunyan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 11:46 am
[quote:6ed7d]unred typo wrote:1. You, too, can be chosen if you follow Christ.

2. If you have time, please answer my post that deals extensively with your OP that I wrote on Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:40 am. 5:40 am???

1. Here is our main disagreement and you just can’t see it. One’s salvation is not dependent upon “if†– it is dependent upon Christ’s finished work at Calvary. What you’ve been saying (and it is very plain) is you believe Christ’s death and shed blood just opened up the door and then if the “saint†follows Christ then…then….only then he is saved. This is not twisting of your words this is what you said – see above quote. You said in order to be chosen you have to “follow Christâ€Â. This is “pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps†– this is works salvation no matter how you dress it up.
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. [/quote:6ed7d]

I can see it. I not only admit this is what I wrote but I will insist that it is what I meant. I’m not afraid of a “works salvation†since faith without works is dead and cannot save. Galatians 2:21 is totally compatible with works of faith. Righteousness does not come by works but by the blood of Christ, when we confess our sins and are made perfect before God by this blood. We didn’t earn or pay for this blood that covers our sin. God gave his Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Believing in Christ is believing the words he spoke and doing them. It does no good to believe something if you don’t act in faith upon that belief. You can believe in your doctor but if you don’t follow what he says to do, you might as well go to the chicken coop for your physical exam.

by AVBunyan
a. You are hoping to be chosen in time based upon your following of Christ.
b. I was chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Does Ephesians 1:4 say “According as he hath chosen us before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love� ? Why do you think it says ‘in Christ’? We were chosen ‘in Christ’ because we were not chosen personally and individually but only those ‘in Christ’ are the chosen ones and it was not determined who those would be until confession was made unto salvation and followed by righteous works by which we are made “accepted in the beloved.†You were not chosen before the foundation of the world, Christ was. You didn’t exist. Hard to believe but you didn’t exist at all then. You just have to get over yourself, Av.

by AVBunyan
Summary – You adhere to a “conditional salvation†– You are pulling verses that are meat to be practical exhortations to the believer after he is saved and making them conditional for salvation. You just cannot seem to separate the Position vs. Practical.

The Bible teaches conditional salvation. You can chop it up, shave off the rough edges, sand down the sharp ones and superglue it back together but it doesn’t fit unless you take all of it as it was intended to be read.

by AVBunyan
2. I can see no reason to comment on your requested post due to:
A. Time constraints and…
B. Your confusion over #1 in this post – just flogging a dead horse until you admit to your works salvation setup that you have created. I know this sounds hard but we are going nowhere until this is settled.

A. I can wait. Tap….tap….tap…is it ready yet? :wink:

B. I have admitted my works salvation. Consider it settled. Now where would you like to go? You can’t escape the fact that what the Bible teaches is a works based salvation, and it is available because of the gift of grace which is his precious blood, without which no man can be saved.

 

[Drew]

I have a lot of empathy for these words froms James Dunn:

One of the most difficult things for me as a junior Calvinist in days gone by was to face up to Paul’s warnings about failure to persevere in Christian life, his own presentation of himself as running a race, and having to be very disciplined in case he’d be disqualified, as well as the warnings to his readers in Rome that if you Christians live according to the flesh, you will die. One of the five points of Calvinism, as you know, is the perseverance or preservation of the saints, and I had to face up to what seems to me undeniable: that Paul brings out the real possibility of Christians falling away and failing to attain the finishing line. For example, in Philippians 3, you remember, he insists on his own account:

Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to
make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Beloved, I do not consider that
I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining
forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of
God in Christ Jesus (Phil. 3:12-14, NRSV).

It’s the same imagery as the end of 1 Corinthians 9 about the danger of being disqualified. He
doesn’t hesitate to use this language. So Paul is very clear on the importance of Christians being very serious about their ethical responsibility in discipleship. And I think it should be equally clear that he warns of the possibility of failure. So final justification, judgment and so on, is going to have to take that into account as well.

On the other hand, I get the impression that the "perseverance supporter" will argue that although a lot may be lost by the judgement of a life lived, the salvation of the person is not actually at risk.

Either way, I am persuaded that there is indeed a sense in which we are justified in the present and in the future - and I recognize full well that how such a "double-sided" scheme actually works needs to be explained. But I do think that, as per Romans 2, one would be hard pressed to argue that we are not, in some ways, to be judged on the basis of a life lived. And Romans 2:6-7 seem to support the notion that eternal life is indeed at risk in this judgement:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Not to mention Romans 2:13 as already mentioned:

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

I am aware that, in this post, I am not engaging directly the arguments of AV. I do not presently have the time.

 

[Drew]

a. You are hoping to be chosen in time based upon your following of Christ.
b. I was chosen from before the foundation of the world.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

I think a very strong case can be made that one of the main arguments in Romans is that whether one was a true member of the covenant people was never determined by a being a Jew "according to the flesh". Rather, from the time of Abraham onward, one is a member of the covenant by virtue of being a Jew "in the heart". This is why Paul speaks out against the "national boast" of the Jews - a boast whereby the ethnic Jew might argue that he is a member of God's covenant people strictly in virtue of being ethnically Jewish.

I think there is a lesson here in respect to believing that one is a member of the covenant people by virtue of election . In the same that the Jew is admonished by Paul to not boast in his "ethnic Jewishness", I would personally expect that Paul would equally hold that no one gets born into the covenant people - one's membership is determined by faith - Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.

It seems rather odd that Paul would spend such effort to undermine the "national boast" of the Jew, by asserting that faith (and not being born into the set of ethnic Jews) determines covenant membership if he happened to believe that one was still "born unto salvation" after all, not as an ethnic Jew, mind you, but still as a member of an equally privileged "elect". To believe in this kind of election unto salvation seems to run counter to one of Paul's main thrusts in Romans - that of speaking out against "salvation by membership in some group" in favour of salvation by faith.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Do you mean the ASV or the NASV? What are you calling the AV? If you mean the KJV, then I would agree.

2. It does say the "faith of'. But then again the meaning of that must be consistent with what Jesus said. He said 'believe in me' in the KJV.

3. Gal. 3:26 KJV and again he says, 'I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus.' Eph. 1:15 KJV So Paul talks about 'our' faith and Jesus said, 'Your faith has made you well.' Mt. 9:22 and 'Great is thy faith, Mt.15:28 So Jesus talks about 'our' faith. So even the meaning of 'the faith of' becomes closer to 'faith in'.

1. The King James Bible

2. The message in the Gospels was tied in to believing who Jesus was:
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Part of their message was they had to believe who he was the other part of the message was…â€Âkeep the lawâ€Â
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: cf..
Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;
The message today is found in Paul’s gospel of I Cor. 15:1-5.

3. There is a practical faith and a justifying faith – you are confusing the two – This (Eph. 1:15) is a practical faith the believer has after he has been saved – it is not the faith that justifies which is found in Gal. 2:16.
Ex. - A saint may have faith that his car will start - A saint may have faith in Christ that Christ will protect him but this is not saving or justifying faith -- this is a practical walking by faith.faith.

I bet you will not go for this explanation.

God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

I can see it. I not only admit this is what I wrote but I will insist that it is what I meant. I’m not afraid of a “works salvation†I have admitted my works salvation. Consider it settled. Now where would you like to go? You can’t escape the fact that what the Bible teaches is a works based salvation, and it is available because of the gift of grace which is his precious blood, without which no man can be saved.

Since you admit you believe a works/conditional salvation then this is the opposite of Paul's gospel of grace and your gospel of works fits Gal. 1:8, 9 so I guess there is nothing more than we can say to one another.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;

Bye

 

[Drew]

One area where I believe people have stumbled is in their interpretation of texts like the following from Romans 4 (NASB):

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.

This text is often used to deny that acts of moral goodness ("works") play any role in our "justification". I think that the works that are referred to here having nothing to do with this at all but are, rather, the "works" that demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and the purity laws.

I will not provide an extensive argument in defence of this position (at least in the present post). I will, for the moment, point out what Paul has written almost immediately before the text above, namely Romans 3:29

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also

If Paul, in Romans 4:1-5, is really talking about the ineffectiveness of "moral effort" in bringing about justification in humanity in general, why this reference to the distinction between Jew and Gentile? I trust Paul's coherence enough to not think he is making an excursionary remark in Romans 3:29. Instead, I suggest that Romans 3:29 shows that, in Romans 4:1-5, Paul is really talking about the "works" that specifically mark out the Jew as distinct from the Gentile, not "good works" generally.

 

[francisdesales]

One area where I believe people have stumbled is in their interpretation of texts like the following from Romans 4 (NASB):

This text is often used to deny that acts of moral goodness ("works") play any role in our "justification". I think that the works that are referred to here having nothing to do with this at all but are, rather, the "works" that demarcate the Jew from the Gentile - circumcision, Sabbath keeping, and the purity laws.

I will not provide an extensive argument in defence of this position (at least in the present post). I will, for the moment, point out what Paul has written almost immediately before the text above, namely Romans 3:29

Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also

Drew,

Good job. It is amazing how many people twist this section of Romans to make it sound like all human actions are worthless, even those guided by the Spirit. This resulted from Martin Luther's being overly-scrupulous and having the idea that every act, even temptations, was a sin. His is a strange suggestion, given that Paul in every letter exhorts people to love and do good works, even in Romans... He certainly is not advocating the disobedience of the Covenant, which states that obedience to God brings the rewards of the promise. Jesus also states that we are to STRIVE for salvation, e.g. Luke 13, and that OUR righteousness must EXCEED the Pharisees (Mat 5). Not exactly the "sit back and don't worry, God has taken care of everything" attitude that some people falsely believe. The Bible clearly notes that our moral actions have something to do with our eternal destiny (Mat 25...!)

Works do not earn salvation. It's a gift given. But that doesn't do away with the necessity of obeying God. Paul in Romans is disgusted with the vain Jewish idea that their works that set them apart, namely, circumcision and the dietary laws, win them a "leg-up" on the Gentiles. As you correctly point out, Paul believes that the Gentiles ALSO have a Law and that God is not a respecter of humans.

Regards