Bible Study Free will

[RevSRE]

IF God uses EVIL for good, and evil serves His Purposes and He shows Himself prevailing over it, then there is no harm, no foul. Evil, death and sin will not prevail over God in Christ, period. They will prove to have been His subservient servants in the end and in the final analysis.

The problem is how could the Eternal Holy God create Evil? How Could the Holy Son of God be born of evil flesh? The answer to both Questions is “the premise is wrong.” God did not create evil and all flesh is not material evil. There are some ideas that are basic to logic. If there is good the absence of good is evil. There is a level of thought that comes from elemental concepts. God cannot be evil. The very meaning of evil is an elemental opposite of God. To say this another way some ideas are so basic they are the foundation of the discussion. Elemental Ideas are so basic they come from the character and nature of God Himself and were not created by God they ARE the basis of the discussion. Words and ideas have meaning, elemental ideas come from the foundation of reality, and they just are. God is Holy, Love, Good. Did God create Holiness, Good, Love, Mercy, Justice? No, they are the attributes that describe God. The Opposite exist because opposite is elemental to the Idea. Ungodly is unholy, hate, evil. From the idea God could not create sin came the many other ideas trying to explain how sin came to be. It is simple, To Disobey GOD is SIN. Satan and man made a choice to disobey God.

 

[GodsGrace]

The problem is how could the Eternal Holy God create Evil? How Could the Holy Son of God be born of evil flesh? The answer to both Questions is “the premise is wrong.” God did not create evil and all flesh is not material evil. There are some ideas that are basic to logic. If there is good the absence of good is evil. There is a level of thought that comes from elemental concepts. God cannot be evil. The very meaning of evil is an elemental opposite of God. To say this another way some ideas are so basic they are the foundation of the discussion. Elemental Ideas are so basic they come from the character and nature of God Himself and were not created by God they ARE the basis of the discussion. Words and ideas have meaning, elemental ideas come from the foundation of reality, and they just are. God is Holy, Love, Good. Did God create Holiness, Good, Love, Mercy, Justice? No, they are the attributes that describe God. The Opposite exist because opposite is elemental to the Idea. Ungodly is unholy, hate, evil. From the idea God could not create sin came the many other ideas trying to explain how sin came to be. It is simple, To Disobey GOD is SIN. Satan and man made a choice to disobey God.

Problem:
How could a perfect being disobey?
How did perfectly created angels disobey God and have pride and want to be like Him?
What made Eve and Adam eat the fruit? Concupiscence, or the sin nature, did not exist yet but entered after Adam ate.

We can make it too easy to explain and don't go back far enough.

tomorrow...
Wondering
P.S. I agree with what you've said. How do we accept worshipping a God that actually created evil? I try not to think about this but every now and then it comes up.

 

[reba]

He is God what ever He does is Godly

 

[GodsGrace]

He is God what ever He does is Godly

I reread my p.s.
It was a question, not a statement. Presenting a problem - which has no answer. But I know for sure that the answer is NOT that God created evil!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Perhaps you meant God's sovereignty. Actually there is really no conflict between the two. God's sovereignty never changes, but He does ALLOW human beings to make free choices, because He is the one who gave men and angels free will. God's foreknowledge gives Him perfect knowledge of all that will happen, and He is able to take everything into account as relates to His own eternal plans and purposes.

I meant God's Providence. But sovereignty will fit the bill too - it's part of it. You're right - it has to do with His eternal plans and purposes. So He gave us free will. But what if that free will is not in compliance with what He's trying to accomplish. What if our free will choice does't get Him closer to His goal?
I'm asking. I have no answer.

Wondering

 

[reba]

I reread my p.s.
It was a question, not a statement. Presenting a problem - which has no answer. But I know for sure that the answer is NOT that God created evil!

Wondering

Wasnt directed at you wondering that is just one of my lines when things dont make good sense to me .. Cuz i agree with ya

 

[smaller]

The problem is how could the Eternal Holy God create Evil?

There are numerous purposes spelled out in the scriptures.

Having anything create itself is polytheism, so that presents even more of an issue. God doesn't need excuses for the things that exist in His creation and evil is one of these invisible powers that He created. I'm not surprised when believers try to excuse and ignore it though as that is what evil in man does. It denies the Creator.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Couldn't be any clearer to me. And choosing one doesn't eliminate the other either.

How Could the Holy Son of God be born of evil flesh?

I have never made such a claim. Flesh is an organization of organic material. It can't be evil.

The answer to both Questions is “the premise is wrong.”

Nah. Just a bad attempt in missing one aspect of the dialog and then trying to equate that to something out of your own head that really has no bearing on the subject to begin with.

 

[RevSRE]

Problem:
How could a perfect being disobey?
How did perfectly created angels disobey God and have pride and want to be like Him?
What made Eve and Adam eat the fruit? Concupiscence, or the sin nature, did not exist yet but entered after Adam ate.

We can make it too easy to explain and don't go back far enough.

tomorrow...
Wondering
P.S. I agree with what you've said. How do we accept worshipping a God that actually created evil? I try not to think about this but every now and then it comes up.

Who said they were perfect beings? It says t hey were made in the image of God. I think that means 1. the Highest in His order of Creation. 2. Given a free Will to choose. 3. Made for fellowship with God.

God gave them man and Angles the right and ability to CHOOSE TO LOVE AND OBEY GOD OR NOT.

As I said NO ONE CREATED EVIL, it is a logical Elemental Idea that comes from the character and nature of How we humans understand God Himself. IF GOD is GOOD the opposite is EVIL! IT is included in the most basic part of the idea itself.

 

[RevSRE]

There are numerous purposes spelled out in the scriptures.

Having anything create itself is polytheism, so that presents even more of an issue. God doesn't need excuses for the things that exist in His creation and evil is one of these invisible powers that He created. I'm not surprised when believers try to excuse and ignore it though as that is what evil in man does. It denies the Creator.

NO! GOOD and EVIL , LOVE and HATE, HOLY and unholy and the rest ARE HUMAN IDEAS THAT TRY TO EXPLAIN IN OUR LIMITED LANGUAGE an understanding of things eternal. As I said NO ONE CREATED EVIL, it is a logical Elemental Idea that comes from the character and nature of How we humans understand God Himself. IF GOD is GOOD the opposite is EVIL! IT is included in the most basic part of the idea itself. NOT WHAT GOD DID BUT AS MAN UNDERSTANDS!!

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Couldn't be any clearer to me. And choosing one doesn't eliminate the other either.

YES, God did that. But, it does not say anything different than I said. GOD GAVE THEM A CHOICE life and good, and death and evil

Nah. Just a bad attempt in missing one aspect of the dialog and then trying to equate that to something out of your own head that really has no bearing on the subject to begin with.
I Feel you have little Idea what you are discussing in History, Language, culture, PRAYERFULLY study what the Bible says.

 

[reba]

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[smaller]

NO! GOOD and EVIL , LOVE and HATE, HOLY and unholy and the rest ARE HUMAN IDEAS

Unlikely. The term evil is what it is, evil, and God did set evil before us by His Own statement of fact. And did so internally I might add.

Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Matthew 12:35
A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We can say we don't have evil in our conscience, but we're only kidding ourselves when we make that claim.

THAT TRY TO EXPLAIN IN OUR LIMITED LANGUAGE an understanding of things eternal. As I said NO ONE CREATED EVIL,

God created all things inclusive of all powers. Evil is a power according to the scripture:

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Habakkuk 2:9
Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

And yes, God can and does "bind" people with that "power" within and can assuredly make it much worse should He Choose to do so. See Romans 9 regarding Pharaoh for example.

it is a logical Elemental Idea that comes from the character and nature of How we humans understand God Himself. IF GOD is GOOD the opposite is EVIL! IT is included in the most basic part of the idea itself. NOT WHAT GOD DID BUT AS MAN UNDERSTANDS!!

God is not some "thing" that we can toss terms at. There is no "thing" in creation that we can compare God to. God is in fact Perfect but only God really knows what He Is and consists of "entirely." Divine Providence Principal 101.

Additionally no one by the exercise of choice or supposed "freewill" is going to make themselves sinless or eradicate evil present within their heart. So freewill would seem rather powerless in the face of this reality in any case. I can't in good faith call that free. Apparently this so called "free will" is largely incapable of simple honesty.

 

[smaller]

If by Gods creation of evil and our binding to it in our conscience/heart, we then come to know Gods Very Real Divine Mercy, I might say that God was entirely justified in creating evil and using it to show and prove these distinctions and in that evil will have served His Purposes in creating it. One example of evil being used for good, to know Gods Mercy in Christ. Our need for His Mercy is built into us by the implanting of evil.

Paul didn't try to escape this conclusion. He openly stated that evil was present with him. Romans 7:21. His entire Gospel of Grace and Mercy in Jesus Christ revolves around this factual internal weakness that we DO have, of evil present with(in) us.

There is also HOPE that arises from this condition. We hope from this present immersion in this wicked and evil age for better things to come, in HOPE. So again, a Divine Matter, HOPE, arises from the uses of our present dilemma on the dire side of things.

Grace is known in a similar way. It is assuredly unmerited and can not be merited because we do have evil and wickedness in heart. So, again, Gods Agenda in the deliverance of UNmertited Grace is served in these matters.

I'd have to call evil rather critical. Were it not, it wouldn't exist.

 

[RevSRE]

personal attack edited reba

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zZR_LknVD7WGaiobl_3RahoeYtV4bCzaWrB-UNbaTSo/edit?usp=sharing

 

[smaller]

In good faith there wasn't a 'white paper' to address in our first post, other reactions notwithstanding.

I do understand that if anyone has invested a lot of their theology time only engaging in a pet position without critical examination of that position, or other alternatives, they aren't nearly as much fun to converse with. Looking at everything is somewhat enjoyable for me, and I will glance at the white paper link, but if it's a shill job without critical examinations of the premises put forth it will be a short read.

Postscript: Read it. It was a short read. Obviously written without much discipline and a lot of unsubstantiated assertions right out the gate. I had to stop when the author claimed that Augustine was a hard determinist. Just the scholarly opinions on the Augustine form of (soft) determinism could probably keep me reading on that subject the remainder of my life. Augustine would have a hard time even getting in the league of scholarly hard determinism. The RCC has a freewill posture so I hardly think one of their chief theologians was in the hard determinist camp to any significant degree. When I got to this point, "Christians are not sinners" I couldn't take it as scripturally credible anymore. There were so many points of circular logic whoever wrote it needs some serious scriptural hand holding. No offense. It happens. Challenge your views. It's healthy!

I once read an entire divinity doctoral thesis from a guy I know about "Law" and not one mention was made of the devil and his messengers in relation to "how" they react at Gods Laws. I thought it was rather lame with that huge missing component myself. But I did manage to wade through the entire shallow document. Never did hear back from the guy on whether it flew with his professors, but if it did I feel sorry for the field.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who said they were perfect beings? It says t hey were made in the image of God. I think that means 1. the Highest in His order of Creation. 2. Given a free Will to choose. 3. Made for fellowship with God.

God gave them man and Angles the right and ability to CHOOSE TO LOVE AND OBEY GOD OR NOT.

As I said NO ONE CREATED EVIL, it is a logical Elemental Idea that comes from the character and nature of How we humans understand God Himself. IF GOD is GOOD the opposite is EVIL! IT is included in the most basic part of the idea itself.

Good morning Rev
I don't really want to get into this. Because where I'm going there is no answer possible. Unless we want to accept that God created evil.
This is just a mental exercise because somehow it was brought up.

I didn't say they were perfect beings. What I said is: How could a perfect being (God) create an imperfect being. A being (angels, man) would have to be imperfect to choose incorrectly OR to choose the evil. Man has a choice. a good and a bad. Where does the bad come from? If the sin nature, or concupiscence, was not in man BEFORE Adam ate, WHAT caused him to eat?

You see, there's no answer for us here on this side of life. That's all I was getting at. I'm not expecting an answer from anyone.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Who wrote that google article link?
RevSRE
I'm really sorry I don't have the time to read the whole article. The reasons I don't have the time is what I'm sorry about - not that I can't read it.

So help me out here. Ran thru it quick. Terrible thing to do! In the very first paragraph it says there are two roads:
1 it's wide and leads to destruction - commandments are not kept
2 it's narrow and leads to life - commandments are kept

Way further down I read:
"Christians are not sinners" exact words

So, are you saying Christians keep the commandments?
Are you saying Christians don't sin?

Maybe in the pages long article it explains the above.
Sorry.

Wondering

 

[th1b.taylor]

Good morning Rev
I don't really want to get into this. Because where I'm going there is no answer possible. Unless we want to accept that God created evil.
This is just a mental exercise because somehow it was brought up.

I didn't say they were perfect beings. What I said is: How could a perfect being (God) create an imperfect being. A being (angels, man) would have to be imperfect to choose incorrectly OR to choose the evil. Man has a choice. a good and a bad. Where does the bad come from? If the sin nature, or concupiscence, was not in man BEFORE Adam ate, WHAT caused him to eat?

You see, there's no answer for us here on this side of life. That's all I was getting at. I'm not expecting an answer from anyone.

Wondering

LOL! You have drawn up a desirable but indefensible position here, young lady. I'll, with all my inability, try to move you to what the Holy Spirit has taught me to understand, difficult on the matters of sensible but reasonable, none the less.

Everything God creates is perfect. First let's deal with Satan, Old Evil personified! When Satan was created he was the chief of all the angels in God's service and he was beautiful, he was perfect.

Some scream but this or but this instead of taking this issue to God in prayer, shame on them.

God, One God, three Persons, as we find in the first three chapters of Genesis, wants real love from His Created Beings and if these perfect Angels had no free will they would amount to Spiritual Robots, programed to massage the ego of a God that needs not!

In the Bible, the first 39 books, we learn that one third of these perfect beings massaged their own egos, a possible product of a Free Will, and they followed a being they were more ¿familiar? with, the ¿foreman?

In this same manor, God created Adam, another name for Man. Adam and his sweet lady, both, had the same free will that God has, created in His image. Every person on this earth, Black, White, Yellow or brown. round eyes or slanted eyes are created in the Image Of God, the two things every man and woman on this earth have in common is their Free Will and the truth that their souls will exist for eternity, the image of God.

I pray this helps you as much as it did me.

 

[JohnDB]

Mmmmmmm.

Maybe nothing has happened except what is common to man and I have not been influenced by Satan.

Maybe (considering the double minded nature of man) I can be a satan or I can be a messenger of good news...aka an angel.

The choices and results extreme....

Because otherwise we are nothing more than cherished pawns in the cosmic game of chess between light and dark.
Which has been a religion already known as Zoroastrianism of the Persian Empire... And that ain't me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Mmmmmmm.

Maybe nothing has happened except what is common to man and I have not been influenced by Satan.

Maybe (considering the double minded nature of man) I can be a satan or I can be a messenger of good news...aka an angel.

The choices and results extreme....

Because otherwise we are nothing more than cherished pawns in the cosmic game of chess between light and dark.
Which has been a religion already known as Zoroastrianism of the Persian Empire... And that ain't me.

John,
I'm not at all sure of your intent here.

 

[Malachi]

Problem:
How could a perfect being disobey?
How did perfectly created angels disobey God and have pride and want to be like Him?
What made Eve and Adam eat the fruit? Concupiscence, or the sin nature, did not exist yet but entered after Adam ate.

Why is this a "problem"? The fact that Adam and Eve and the angels had free wills means that they could choose to obey or disobey, to think evil thoughts or holy thoughts, to rebel or to submit to God.

As to what made Eve eat of the fruit, it was her own lusts -- see Gen 3:6. As to what made Adam eat of the fruit, it was his own disobedience (1 Tim 2:14). They could blame Satan all they wanted, but in the end God held each one of them accountable, just as he holds each one of us accountable.