Futurism&TheTemple

[Hitch]

It's possible that this prophecy has, or will have, multiple fulfillment. There have been periods of history when something of this nature has already occurred, although this does not mean that it's main fulfillment may not yet be future.

Do you think there will be another virgin birth?

Why not?

 

[thightower]

Not taking anything away from the ad 70 event. But my understanding is that 42 months after the AoD is the seventh trumpet. Then the 1000 year reign of Christ, then satan is loosed for a little while, after that satan is thrown into to the fires of hell. Thats when God permantly establishes his throne on earth and we step into eternity. And if my math is correct 70 ad was 1942 years ago, we should have been in heaven on earth for the last 942 years.

 

[thightower]

Do you think there will be another virgin birth?

Why not?

Why does Christ need to be born twice?

 

[Hitch]

Not taking anything away from the ad 70 event. But my understanding is that 42 months after the AoD is the seventh trumpet. Then the 1000 year reign of Christ, then satan is loosed for a little while, after that satan is thrown into to the fires of hell. Thats when God permantly establishes his throne on earth and we step into eternity. And if my math is correct 70 ad was 1942 years ago, we should have been in heaven on earth for the last 942 years.

Please narrow your focus to the OP.

 

[jasoncran]

so i guess as daniel for saw the channukah miracle. another maccabee type will come and purge the temple.hmm isnt that what christ did? i mean he did in a sense cleanse the temple of god of impurities. Ie jews that didnt believe. the temple being here a way to the Lord. which the jews did by their love of money make impure and also by their ways pollute the laws of god.

 

[Hitch]

Why does Christ need to be born twice?

Originally Posted by farouk


It's possible that this prophecy has, or will have,
multiple fulfillment. There have been periods of history when something of this
nature has already occurred, although this does not mean that it's main
fulfillment may not yet be future.

My question is conserned with the implications of Farouk's post.

 

[jasoncran]

Not taking anything away from the ad 70 event. But my understanding is that 42 months after the AoD is the seventh trumpet. Then the 1000 year reign of Christ, then satan is loosed for a little while, after that satan is thrown into to the fires of hell. Thats when God permantly establishes his throne on earth and we step into eternity. And if my math is correct 70 ad was 1942 years ago, we should have been in heaven on earth for the last 942 years.

rashi disagrees. the jews didnt see that daniel 9 event as the "end" they saw it as what happened in ad 70. at least rashi did.

trumpets are judgments. why then did christ compare his coming and the destruction of jerusalem to the flood? if its global like the flood theres no saved souls when the judgements happen.

were there souls who were in the flood that cried out to be spared? did god tell noah pick them up?

 

[Hitch]

The reason I say anything about the 3rd temple is what the bible has to say about it. The bible teaches that 42 months after the AoD, this is when the 1000 year reign starts.

This implies that Chirst is not reigning currently, if Christ is not who is?

 

[thightower]

Not taking anything away from the temple or jewish traditions. Which was established by God for his people. The moment Jesus died on the cross there was a great eathquake and the veil for the Holy of Holies was torn down the middle. Proving he was the way to the father for all people.

 

[thightower]

This implies that Chirst is not reigning currently, if Christ is not who is?

In my understanding, in the 1000 year reign Christ will literally be reigning from Jerusalem.

 

[Hitch]

In my understanding, in the 1000 year reign Christ will literally be reigning from Jerusalem.

Are you refusing to answer the question?

Copied below;

Originally Posted by Hitch


This implies that Chirst is not reigning currently, if
Christ is not who is?

 

[thightower]

rashi disagrees. the jews didnt see that daniel 9 event as the "end" they saw it as what happened in ad 70. at least rashi did.

trumpets are judgments. why then did christ compare his coming and the destruction of jerusalem to the flood? if its global like the flood theres no saved souls when the judgements happen.

were there souls who were in the flood that cried out to be spared? did god tell noah pick them up?

The AoD is mentioned several times in scripture not just Daniel 9. At the seventh trumpet Jesus will harvest the believers out of this earth to meet him in the clouds. And like farouk stated there can be muliple fulfillments.

 

[jasoncran]

Not taking anything away from the temple or jewish traditions. Which was established by God for his people. The moment Jesus died on the cross there was a great eathquake and the veil for the Holy of Holies was torn down the middle. Proving he was the way to the father for all people.

ok then if the jews get that part. they why do they need to have the aod all again? they see it i guess as some odd thing. they deny the lord did it buts it recorded for them.

when a jew comes to christ and is raised in the temple they will see why that happened. sure some jews become "messianic" others like some friends do want anything to do with that.a few are like me. i know of one here. but he has asked that i dont spill the beans. josephus records the signs and miracles of the temple and says in ad 30 the temple veil stopped changing colors from red to white on yom kippur and that day in ad 30 the door to the temple(gate) wouldnt open. hmm signs and wonders indeed.

in fact i can even show you in my tanach the war for jerusalem was seven years long. why is it that so hard for christians of today? i mean if only a jew that is in christ is isreal why then cant it be that the isreal that sins no more and is purged from hers sins be a nation of jews that are of the church? make sense more my way when we say and believe. yes isreal will be once again in the end but how and when we cant say. jesus said he didnt know when the kingdom would be restored. he said its not for you nor i to know. that isnt a no but i dont know.

one can say easily after he comes that the Lord will divvy out the earth and then the hebrew will be in their nation. i dont need a temple to have access to god. that is what the nation of isreal was about, having a relationship as a nation and person with YHWH.do you know why he dealt with isreal that way? because they as whole were his and he their god. the church has taken that function and will be judged for her sins. hmm amazing. christ said he is coming back toa bride without blemish.

well leave it to a gentile (schofield) to take a jewish thought and monkey to make it sound like all the church leaves the earth, when christ says the feast is symbolic of like a marriage. im coming with my saints to inspect my bride(the church alive when he comes)and then unite with them that are worthy. this is really similiar to what the jews of today and then have in wedding feasts. the bride-groom inspects the bride and friends(ie john the baptist did this) shouted out here is the bride-groom.

we are married to christ. we will be made ready when he returns.

 

[thightower]

Are you refusing to answer the question?

Copied below;

I believe that Christ is reigning currenty in the hearts of the believers through the spirit. In the 1000 year reign I believe he will be reigning literally in his remade human body.

 

[thightower]

ok then if the jews get that part. they why do they need to have the aod all again? they see it i guess as some odd thing. they deny the lord did it buts it recorded for them.

when a jew comes to christ and is raised in the temple they will see why that happened. sure some jews become "messianic" others like some friends do want anything to do with that.a few are like me. i know of one here. but he has asked that i dont spill the beans. josephus records the signs and miracles of the temple and says in ad 30 the temple veil stopped changing colors from red to white on yom kippur and that day in ad 30 the door to the temple(gate) wouldnt open. hmm signs and wonders indeed.

in fact i can even show you in my tanach the war for jerusalem was seven years long. why is it that so hard for christians of today? i mean if only a jew that is in christ is isreal why then cant it be that the isreal that sins no more and is purged from hers sins be a nation of jews that are of the church? make sense more my way when we say and believe. yes isreal will be once again in the end but how and when we cant say. jesus said he didnt know when the kingdom would be restored. he said its not for you nor i to know. that isnt a no but i dont know.

one can say easily after he comes that the Lord will divvy out the earth and then the hebrew will be in their nation. i dont need a temple to have access to god. that is what the nation of isreal was about, having a relationship as a nation and person with YHWH.do you know why he dealt with isreal that way? because they as whole were his and he their god. the church has taken that function and will be judged for her sins. hmm amazing. christ said he is coming back toa bride without blemish.

well leave it to a gentile (schofield) to take a jewish thought and monkey to make it sound like all the church leaves the earth, when christ says the feast is symbolic of like a marriage. im coming with my saints to inspect my bride(the church alive when he comes)and then unite with them that are worthy. this is really similiar to what the jews of today and then have in wedding feasts. the bride-groom inspects the bride and friends(ie john the baptist did this) shouted out here is the bride-groom.

we are married to christ. we will be made ready when he returns.

I think the AoD of 70 ad and the 7 year war in jerusalam was a sign of things to come.

 

[jasoncran]

The AoD is mentioned several times in scripture not just Daniel 9. At the seventh trumpet Jesus will harvest the believers out of this earth to meet him in the clouds. And like farouk stated there can be muliple fulfillments.

so we should look for a macabeen revolt and a cleansing of the temple? really.

lol,hitch a blind jew that is likely in hell gets the daniel prophecy pretty much right.sorry. you do realise that in the torah room is made for the idea that if theres a diaspora one can still do the feasts. that is what the hebrews of today have done. i have read the articles on that. the temple isnt needed for them to be doing the torah. the jews of today teach that temple will ONLY be built by the messiah when he comes. he will come and then restore isreal and then the temple will be built.

not before, after he comes.

this is what they say before he comes

The time appointed by G-d for the Messianic redemption is a closely guarded secret.1 Nonetheless, we are offered many hints to recognize its proximity: when certain conditions come about, await the imminent coming of Mashiach.
Most of these conditions are quite disturbing, clearly displaying a situation of the very “bottom of the pit.â€2 One major source describes the world-condition in those days as follows: increase in insolence and impudence; oppressing inflation; unbridled irresponsibility on the part of authorities; centers of learning will turn into bawdy houses; wars; many destitutes begging, with none to pity them; wisdom shall be putrid; the pious shall be despised; truth will be abandoned; the young will insult the old; family-breakup with mutual recriminations; impudent leadership.3
Other sources add: lack of scholars; succession of troubles and evil decrees; famines; mutual denunciations; epidemics of terrible diseases; poverty and scarcity; cursing and blaspheming; international confrontations nations provoking and fighting each other.4 In short, it will be a time of suffering that will make it look as if G-d were asleep. These are the birthpangs of Mashiach, bearable only in anticipation of the bliss that follows them.
“When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him… when you see a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him.â€5 “When you see nations fighting each other, look toward the feet of Mashiach.â€6
Little wonder that some sages expressed apprehensions about those days in terms of, “Let [Mashiach] come, but let me not see him.â€7 The prevailing attitude, however, is to await his coming in spite of all, even if thereafter we shall merit no more than sitting “in the shadow of his donkey’s dung!â€8
The troubles and agony of chevlei Mashiach (birthpangs of Mashiach), however, are not unavoidable:
“What is man to do to be spared the pangs of Mashiach? Let him engage in Torah and acts of loving-kindness!â€9
Moreover, there are also good and happy signs indicating the imminent coming of Mashiach: a good measure of prosperity;10 a renewal of Torah-study;11 and opening of the “gates of wisdom above and the wellsprings of wisdom below,â€12 evidenced also by scientific and technological discoveries and advances; a manifestation and propagation of the mystical teachings of the Torah;13 and also “In the time that Mashiach will awaken, many signs and miracles will occur in the world.â€14

now then why does the church teach this?that is very much ad 70!!!!!!!

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/100900/jewish/The-Time-Before-Mashiach.htm

i believe that was the case when the LORD did come the first time. was there not much evil on the earth and jesus did do signs and wonders. few teachers were around then. only two sages alive(hillel and shimei) the other rabbis quoted them.

once agian the sages got it right!!!!!

 

[jasoncran]

The Messianic Era

A. Restoration of the Bet Hamikdash
Mashiach shall restore the Bet Hamikdash in Jerusalem.1 This refers to the third Bet Hamikdash that will stand forever, in fulfillment of the Divine prophecy of Ezekiel 37:26-28: “I shall give My Sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling-place shall be over them… The nations shall know that I am G-d who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forever.â€2
B. Ingathering of the Exiles of Israel
Through Mashiach shall be effected the ingathering of all the exiles of Israel:3
Deuteronomy 30:3-4: “G-d, your G-d, shall bring back your captivity… and He will return and gather you from all the nations whither G-d, your G-d, has scattered you. If your banished shall be at the utmost end of the heavens, G-d, your G-d, shall gather you from there, and He shall take you from there.â€
Isaiah 11:11-12,16: “It shall be on that day that G-d shall again set His hand for a second time to acquire the remnant of His people that shall remain from Assyria and from Egypt, from Pathros and from Cush and from Elam, from Shinar and from Chamat and from the islands of the sea… There shall be a highway for the remnant of His people that shall remain from Assyria, as there was for Israel on the day they went up from the land of Egypt.â€
Isaiah 43:5-6: “Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your seed from the east and gather you from the west. I shall say to the north, ‘Give up,’ and to the south, ‘Do not hold back, bring My sons from far and My daughters from the end of the earth.’ â€
Amos 9:14-15: “I shall return the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the waste cities and settle… I shall plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked out of their land that I have given them, says G-d, your G-d.â€
Jeremiah 23:7-8: “Therefore behold, days shall come, says G-d, that they shall no longer say, ‘As G-d lives who has taken up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt;’ but ‘As G-d lives who has taken up and brought the seed of the House of Israel from the north country and from all the countries where He had banished them,’ and they shall dwell in their land.â€
Ezekiel 39:25, 27-29: “…Now I shall bring back the captivity of Jacob and I shall have compassion on the whole House of Israel, and I shall be zealous for My holy Name… When I shall have returned them from the nations and gathered them from the lands of their enemies… They shall know that I am G-d, their G-d, in that I exiled them to the nations and gathered them unto their land, and I will not leave any one of them there. I will no more hide My face from them, as I will pour out My spirit upon the House of Israel…â€4
The Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, exiled by the Assyrians before the destruction of the first Bet Hamikdash (II-Kings, ch. 17), and dispersed beyond the river Sambation and the ‘Mountains of Darkness,’ will also return.5
This Divine promise of the return and restoration of Israel is unconditional. It will occur even if the people should not want to return:
“That which arises in your mind shall not come to pass, namely that which you say, ‘We shall be like the nations, like the families of the countries, to serve wood and stone.’ As I live, says the Lord G-d, I shall surely rule over them with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with fury poured out. I shall take you out from the nations and gather you from the lands in which you were scattered, with a mighty hand, an outstretched arm and with fury poured out… I shall pass you under the rod and bring you into the covenant… For on My holy mountain, on the mountain of the height of Israel, says the Lord G-d, there shall all of the whole House of Israel serve Me… when I bring you out from the nations and gather you from the lands where you were scattered, and I shall be sanctified in you in the eyes of the nations. You shall know that I am G-d when I bring you to the earth of Israel, to the land about which I raised My hand to give it to your fathers.†(Ezekiel 20:32-37, 40-42)
“Therefore say to the House of Israel, Thus said the Lord G-d: I am not doing (this) for your sake, House of Israel, but for My holy Name which you profaned among the nations wither you came. I shall sanctify My great Name that was profaned among the nations, that you profaned in their midst, and the nations shall know that I am G-d, says the Lord G-d, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. I shall take you from the nations, and I shall gather you from all the lands, and I shall bring you to your land. I shall sprinkle pure waters upon you and you shall be purified from all your sins, and I will purify you from all your idols…†(Ezekiel 36:22-25)
C. End to Evil and Sin
The Messianic era will mark the end of evil and sin:
Ezekiel 37:23: “They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and with their abominations and with all their transgressions…â€
Zephaniah 3:13: “The remnant of Israel will not do any wrong, and they will not speak lies nor shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth.â€
Zechariah 13:2: “It shall be in that day… that I shall cut off the names of the idols from the earth and they shall no longer be remembered; and I shall also remove from the earth the [false] prophets and the spirit of impurity.â€
Malachi 3:19: “For behold the day comes burning like a furnace, and all the wanton sinners and everyone that does wickedness shall be stubble… that to them shall not be left root and branch.â€
Isaiah 60:21: “Your people shall all be righteous, they shall inherit the land forever…â€
Jeremiah 50:20: “In those days and in that time, says G-d, the iniquity of Israel shall be searched for but it will not be, and the sins of Judah but they shall not be found…â€6
D. Awareness and Knowledge of G-d
The Messianic era will be a time of universal awareness, perception and knowledge of G-d:
Isaiah 11:9: (cf. Habakuk 2:14): “…the earth shall be full of knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea.â€
Isaiah 40:5: “The glory of G-d shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see together that the mouth of G-d has spoken.â€7
Isaiah 52:8: “…for eye to eye they shall see as G-d returns to Zion.â€
Jeremiah 31:32-33: “…I shall put My teaching in their inward parts and write it in their heart, and I shall be to them for G-d and they shall be to Me for a people. They shall no longer teach one another, and a man his brother, saying ‘Know G-d,’ for they shall all know Me from the least of them to the greatest of them…â€
The Divine spirit will be upon the people, endowing them with the power of prophecy and vision:
Joel 3:1-2: “…I shall pour out My spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your elders shall dream dreams, your young shall see visions. In those days I shall pour out My spirit also upon the servants and handmaids.â€8
E. Universal Worship of G-d
Mashiach shall mend the whole world so that all shall serve G-d in unity:9
Zephaniah 3:9: “For then I shall turn to the peoples a pure tongue that all shall call upon the Name of G-d to serve Him with one consent.â€
Isaiah 2:2-3 and Michah 4:1-2: “…The mountain of G-d’s House shall be established at the top of the mountains and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it. Many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of G-d, to the House of the G-d of Jacob, and let him [Mashiach] teach us of His ways and we shall go in His paths;’ for from Zion shall go forth Torah, and the word of G-d from Jerusalem.â€10
Zechariah 9:16: “…every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to bow before the King, G-d…â€
Zechariah 14:9: “G-d shall be King over the entire earth. In that day G-d shall be One and His Name One.â€
F. Universal Peace and Harmony
The awareness and knowledge of G-d will remove the narrow-minded dispositions that lead to strife and war. It will be an era of peace and harmony in the Holy Land11 and throughout the world:
Isaiah 2:4 and Michah 4:3: “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning-hooks. Nation shall not lift a sword against nation, nor shall they learn war any more.†[Michah 4:4 continues: “Each man shall sit under his vine and under his fig-tree, and none shall make them afraid…â€]
Hosea 2:20: “…I shall break from the earth the bow, the sword and warfare, and I shall make them lie down securely.â€
Zechariah 9:10: “…the bow of war shall be cut off, and [Mashiach] shall speak peace unto the nations…â€
This new attitude of mankind will also be reflected in the animal world:
Isaiah 11:6-9: “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb and the leopard shall lie with the kid, and a calf with a lion’s cub and a fatling together, and a small child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like cattle. An infant shall play over the hole of an asp, and the weaned child shall put out his hand over the eyeball of an adder. They will not harm or destroy on all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea.â€
Isaiah 65:25: “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like cattle, dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not harm nor destroy in all My holy mountain, says G-d.â€12
G. Resurrection of the Dead
“Your dead shall be revived, my corpses shall arise; awaken and sing you who dwell in the dust, for a dew of lights is your dew…†(Isaiah 26:19)
“Behold I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the Land of Israel. You shall know that I am G-d when I open your graves and when I revive you from your graves, My people. I shall put My spirit into you and you will live, and I will place you upon your land, and you will know that I, G-d, have spoken and done, says G-d.†(Ezekiel 37:12-14)
“Many of them that sleep in the land of dust shall awake…†(Daniel 12:2)13
H. Blissful Utopia: End to Disease and Death
The Messianic era will witness ultimate physical and spiritual bliss. All will be healed.14 The blind, the deaf and the dumb, the lame, whosoever has any blemish or disability, shall be healed from all their disabilities: “The eyes of the blind shall be clearsighted, and the ears of the deaf shall be opened… the lame shall leap as a hart and the tongue of the dumb shall sing…†(Isaiah 35:5-6).15 Death itself shall cease, as it is said, “Death shall be swallowed up forever and G-d shall wipe the tears from every face…†(Isaiah 25:8)16
There will be a life of ease.17 Our physical needs will be taken care of by others, as it is said, “Strangers shall stand and feed your flocks and aliens shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.†(Isaiah 61:5)18
The earth will manifest extraordinary fertility, yielding an overabundance of every kind of produce, and trees growing ripe fruits every day.19 Zion’s wilderness will be made “to be like Eden, and her desert like the garden of G-d†(Isaiah 51:3). “I will call for the grain and increase it… and I will increase the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field…†(Ezekiel 36:29-30) “… The plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him who sows seed; and the mountains shall drip sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.†(Amos 9:13)20
“At that time there will be neither famine nor war, neither envy nor strife. All good things will be bestowed in abundance, and all delicacies will be accessible like dust.â€21
The wondrous events and conditions of the Messianic era will completely overshadow all and any miracles that happened before then, even those associated with the exodus from Egypt.22
Even so, these Divine blessings are not an end in themselves. They are but a means towards a higher goal:
Our longing for the Messianic era is not for the sake of dominating the world, to rule over the heathens, or to be exalted by the nations. Nor is it that we might eat, drink and rejoice,23 “have much produce and wealth, ride horses and indulge in wine and song, as thought by some confused people.â€24
It is, rather, to have relief from the powers that presently do not allow us to be preoccupied with Torah and mitzvot properly.25 Our aspirations are to befree to devote ourselves to Torah and its wisdom, with no one to oppress and disturb us. We long for that time because there will be an assembly of the righteous, an era dominated by goodness, wisdom, knowledge and truth. It will be a time when the commandments of the Torah shall be observed without inertia, laziness or compulsion (other version: “worries, fear or compulsionâ€).26

 

[jasoncran]

The sole preoccupation of the whole world will be to know G-d. The Israelites will be great sages: they will know things that are presently concealed, and will achieve knowledge of their Creator to the utmost capacity of human beings, as it is said, “The earth shall be full of the knowledge of G-d as the waters cover the sea.†(Isaiah 11:9)27

from chabad.org.

yet the bible and even their tanach teaches that their will be sin if this exekiel temple is built. by this i mean theres mentioning of it.

 

[thightower]

The one you refer to as the messiah, which will restore Israel and rebuild the temple. I have been taught in the bible is the antichrist. I believe when the messiah comes he will be riding a white horse in the clouds with the sound of thunder to deliver judgment to the nations of the world.

 

[jasoncran]

The one you refer to as the messiah, which will restore Israel and rebuild the temple. I have been taught in the bible is the antichrist. I believe when the messiah comes he will be riding a white horse in the clouds with the sound of thunder to deliver judgment to the nations of the world.

hmm hardly. they are teaching after he comes and does signs and wonders. jesus did signs and wonders.

raising the dead. that was a sign. healing the sick that is a sign.

so annias didnt see jesus coming in the clouds? if every eye will see . how then will they if the armies of the enemies of jerusalem attack isreal on horseback?

if every eye sees then you have a problem. that connotates no sinner saved alive.