GOD IS A SINNER

[JLB]

I could give you 5 Calvinist arguments off the top of my head.

1) When the universe was created, God had already ordained the plan of salvation, which means He already knew that billions would suffer in a wicked world. Yet He made the universe to be this way anyhow.

2) Romans 13 says God installs governments. So God installed the Roman emperors who martyred many Christians.

3) God forbids us to seek revenge, but He takes revenge, so clearly He has a different standard for Himself.

4) God hardened pharoahs heart to make things worse for the Hebrews.

5) Jesus was the author and finisher of a plan that patently required His violent death on a cross.

They can defend "God authoring evil" without even getting to pre-destination.

Now I'm not saying I agree with them. But they can make good arguments.

It would be nice if you would include scripture and context with each of your 5 statements, so we can understand where you are getting these things from?




JLB

 

[AChristianStoic]

I’m not sure how much context there is to discuss.

1) You need context for the notion that God knew the end game before He built this universe?

2) Let every soul be in subjection to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those who exist are ordained by God. -- Romans 13:1 God installs governing authorities in this human world. He even installs the ones we don't like.

3) Don’t seek revenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to God’s wrath. For it is written, “Vengeance belongs to me; I will repay, says the Lord.” (Deuteronomy 32:35) -- Romans 12:19

4) There are multiple statements in Exodus where God takes credit for hardening pharoah.

5) looking to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. -- Romans 12:2

 

[stovebolts]

4) There are multiple statements in Exodus where God takes credit for hardening pharoah.

This is very interesting, because it talks of a hardening of the heart.

We see in Exodus that God does harden Pharaohs heart. But what most fail to recognize is Pharaohs heart had already been hardened by himself.

This really gets to to root of Gods righteousness because there is always an element of mercy, always an opportunity to repent. Another way to say it might be this. When we harden our heart to the Lord, God always extends mercy and presents the opportunity to soften our heart.

When we’ve refused to soften our heart and our own hardness of heart multiplied our sin, especially against the innocent, then justice is served. God can do this in this life, or the life to come. We all come before judgement.

To those God hardens, or send delusions, it is an act of His righteousness and a form of justice. Mercy was extended and rejected.

It is worthy to not that God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked. God desires all to be saved.

 

[Elihoenai]

Revelation 13:6 King James Version

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.


Blasphemy! Blasphemy!

The Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches are built on Sinners. Feel free to take out an Indulgence. Just make sure I'm not the one on the receiving end of the Indulgence.

 

[JLB]

This is very interesting, because it talks of a hardening of the heart.

We see in Exodus that God does harden Pharaohs heart. But what most fail to recognize is Pharaohs heart had already been hardened by himself.

This really gets to to root of Gods righteousness because there is always an element of mercy, always an opportunity to repent. Another way to say it might be this. When we harden our heart to the Lord, God always extends mercy and presents the opportunity to soften our heart.

When we’ve refused to soften our heart and our own hardness of heart multiplied our sin, especially against the innocent, then justice is served. God can do this in this life, or the life to come. We all come before judgement.

To those God hardens, or send delusions, it is an act of His righteousness and a form of justice. Mercy was extended and rejected.

It is worthy to not that God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked. God desires all to be saved.

So true.

We see in the previous Pharaoh, when Joseph was there, that he honored the wisdom God gave Joseph through his dream, and promoted him.

However, the Pharaoh that Moses dealt with had many oppurtunities to do the same but chose to be prideful and stubborn.



JLB

 

[AChristianStoic]

I agree stovebolts as I said before, I was just offering a few arguments people can make to defend God authoring evil. Some feel that pharoah was created with a hard heart and destined to be hardened further. Others suspect pharoah turned himself into a tyrant and God simply used it against him.

 

[stovebolts]

Some feel that pharoah was created with a hard heart and destined to be hardened further.

Yes, I’ve come across that. But that goes against the Exodus narrative.

Exodus is one of my favorite books. I’m of the belief that the better on understands Exodus within its original narrative, the better one will understand pars of the NT.

 

[AChristianStoic]

Not just Exodus! The more we delight in the OT altogether, the more we grasp the coming of the Lord.

Paul and the other NT writers had a deep love for the OT. They didn't write about it with the flippancy we see in the modern church. "Oh that part doesn't matter because society has changed, that part doesn't matter because we know better now, that part isn't important because the Jews were superstitious..." Yet Jesus and the NT writers spoke very highly of those old prophets.

If I found myself face to face with Paul -- a man whose anointing healed more people in a day than I've seen in my life -- I doubt I'd be brave enough to 'correct' him to his face with the modern American opinion of the Torah.

It's a very dangerous game to slice and dice this stuff irreverently.

 

[JLB]

It's a very dangerous game to slice and dice this stuff irreverently.

Amen.

 

[stovebolts]

Not just Exodus! The more we delight in the OT altogether, the more we grasp the coming of the Lord.

Paul and the other NT writers had a deep love for the OT. They didn't write about it with the flippancy we see in the modern church. "Oh that part doesn't matter because society has changed, that part doesn't matter because we know better now, that part isn't important because the Jews were superstitious..." Yet Jesus and the NT writers spoke very highly of those old prophets.

If I found myself face to face with Paul -- a man whose anointing healed more people in a day than I've seen in my life -- I doubt I'd be brave enough to 'correct' him to his face with the modern American opinion of the Torah.

It's a very dangerous game to slice and dice this stuff irreverently.

So very true!
I’ve always enjoyed the OT, especially Genesis, Exodus and 1and 2 Samual. Those are by far my favorites without diminishing the others.

My wife was raised in a church that prided themselves as a NT church and as such, they knew very little of the OT. In many cases they took a very negative view of it, just like you explained. We left that church and then because of Covid, had to leave the next church too. Where we landed is a Godsend! Ironically, the preacher stays mostly in the OT!

 

[PeterJens]

I've been thinking about the reformed faith since we have a few members here of that belief system.

The more I ponder on the teachings of that world view...the more it seems totally unbelievable and the less
sense it makes.

This morning this came to mind:

God is a sinner.

Why?

God gave us the 10 commandments to follow.
God is a holy God and in Him there is no darkness. 1 John 1:5
He expects us to follow the 10 commandments if we want to be with Him for eternity.

So then why does God sin?

If God decreed, preordained, predestined, predetermined, everything that is to happen to each man, as Calvin taught and the Westminister Confession of Faith teaches....

Then God is CREATING and CAUSING sin and He is thus a sinner.
They that COMMIT, cause, the sin...are the ones sinning.

So, the end result is that God is a sinner and does the very things He tells us not to do.

This connection is ordaining sin, creating it and making it happen is the same as doing sin.
I agree this connection appears to be there, except there is an aspect that God in creating free will knew some would forever be destroyed. The reformed emphasise the foreknowledge means the individual is doomed to condemnation, while the free will camp emphasise the choice.

My problem is there is truth in biology dictates certain behaviour patterns, like autism isolates people, being a psychopath means you have no empathy, having uncontrolled anger issues or sexual desire means anti social behaviour will easily follow ones life. There are population mathematical behaviour patterns which we all follow, which are embedded in our genetics and communications with everyone.

The nub of the issue for me is the notion of torture for all eternity for lostness, seems absurd or children held accountable for something they have no real conception of. I see in Gods creation this fine balance between learning ones place and investing in others or ones own selfish ambition.

God could be truly guilty of torture and terrible crimes, except He could also be the greatest optimist of all, hoping that giving everyone and everything a chance, no matter how small is worth it. But we in our mortal view have just this small view on what things we know and how things balance, yet God has the complete picture.

So I agree reformed positions often over emphasise sovereignty, while we often over emphasise choice and peoples power to over come. God bless you

 

[Blade]

If we read how God set His people free.. He did everything for them.. then there came a point it all changed.. NOT by Him

And no to "He expects us to follow the 10 commandments if we want to be with Him for eternity." John 3 16-17.

 

[Who Me]

God gave us the 10 commandments to follow.
God is a holy God and in Him there is no darkness. 1 John 1:5
He expects us to follow the 10 commandments if we want to be with Him for eternity.

So then why does God sin?

If God decreed, preordained, predestined, predetermined, everything that is to happen to each man, as Calvin taught and the Westminister Confession of Faith teaches....

Theology is man's attempt to understand or explain God. So any explanation or understanding of an explanation that makes God a sinner is faulty.

 

[PaulChristensen]

After reading all the great responses, I have decided to put my oar into the discussion. I have a Calvinist English Puritan theology, mixed with Pentecostal theology (which is basically Nicene Creed with continuance of the Spiritual gifts in our modern churches. Some passionately Arminian Pentecostals didn't like me much because I wouldn't go along with their "saved today, lost tomorrow" notion.

Frankly, I don't see any direct Scripture that says that God deliberately predestines unsaved to hell. But I do see that Jesus came to save the unrighteous. Also, Peter talks of the "foreknowledge" of God in relation to those written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

Foreknowledge does not involve determination. The only time the word predestination is used is "predestined to conform to the image of Christ"

I know the Scripture says that God creates evil. I can't answer that one, because I believe that good and evil have always been there, and when He created man He made him with the power of choice between good and evil. He did not make man a programmable robot.

That's enough to chew on initially,

 

[GodsGrace]

Theology is man's attempt to understand or explain God. So any explanation or understanding of an explanation that makes God a sinner is faulty.

I'm very happy that you agree with me.
God is certainly not a sinner....
which makes calvinism a faulty belief system.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we read how God set His people free.. He did everything for them.. then there came a point it all changed.. NOT by Him

And no to "He expects us to follow the 10 commandments if we want to be with Him for eternity." John 3 16-17.

Hi Blade,
Do you believe God does not expect us to follow the 10 commandments?

Jesus said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments.
John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

And what does John 3:16-17 mean to you?
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

After reading all the great responses, I have decided to put my oar into the discussion. I have a Calvinist English Puritan theology, mixed with Pentecostal theology (which is basically Nicene Creed with continuance of the Spiritual gifts in our modern churches. Some passionately Arminian Pentecostals didn't like me much because I wouldn't go along with their "saved today, lost tomorrow" notion.

Hi Paul,
I told you there'd be much we wouldn't agree on!
First, please don't call me an Arminian since I don't know what Jacob believed.

Second...saved today and lost tomorrow is a bit naive I think.
The N.T. has many verses that show a person could possibly decide to deny God and become as lost as they were before they knew our Lord. The Early Church Fathers, which would be those pre 325 AD, certainly believed salvation could lost by a person.
But we'll leave this for another day.

Frankly, I don't see any direct Scripture that says that God deliberately predestines unsaved to hell. But I do see that Jesus came to save the unrighteous. Also, Peter talks of the "foreknowledge" of God in relation to those written in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

You also don't see any scripture that states that God predestines some to heaven.
If you believe that God chooses some to be saved...then by default He chooses some to be lost forever.
Jesus came to save anyone that wants to be saved...of course, they were unrighteous before salvation.

As to the Lamb's Book of Life....
God has foreknowledge of EVERYTHING.
He is omniscient.
He knows all...at all times.

Foreknowledge does not involve determination. The only time the word predestination is used is "predestined to conform to the image of Christ"

Agreed 100%

I know the Scripture says that God creates evil. I can't answer that one, because I believe that good and evil have always been there, and when He created man He made him with the power of choice between good and evil. He did not make man a programmable robot.

That's enough to chew on initially,

Are you sure you're a calvinist??!!

Let me throw this at you.
God did not create evil.
Isaiah 45 states God created calamity.

There are two ways of understanding this verse (7)

1. God causes calamity (chaos, etc) by pulling back His protective hand.
He stops interjecting Himself into time and let's things go the way they will go naturally.
It's His ABSENCE that causes calamity....and this is specific to a time in Israel's history.
We all see this in Romans 1:24 when God "gave them over" to the lusts of their heart.
IOW....He abandoned them to themselves.

2. God revealed Himself to the Hebrew people. They were nomads but very ahead of their time
since those of that day were still sacrificing humans. What they might have done was to attribute everything that happened to God...The Mighty God...be it the things He actually did and those He actually did not.

 

[GodsGrace]

This connection is ordaining sin, creating it and making it happen is the same as doing sin.
I agree this connection appears to be there, except there is an aspect that God in creating free will knew some would forever be destroyed. The reformed emphasise the foreknowledge means the individual is doomed to condemnation, while the free will camp emphasise the choice.

I surely hope you understand that I don't believe God is a sinner!
I think you know the O.P. just brought God's determinism, as some believe, to its natural conclusion...
and that is that God HIMSELF is a sinner...
which, of course, is impossible.

I've said many times that the reformed faith makes no sense in many ways.
This is one way.
I was kind of hoping Fastfredy0 would join in the conversation,,,
but I suppose he has nothing to add
or he doesn't care to explain his belief system
or he just dislikes conversing with me....

My problem is there is truth in biology dictates certain behaviour patterns, like autism isolates people, being a psychopath means you have no empathy, having uncontrolled anger issues or sexual desire means anti social behaviour will easily follow ones life. There are population mathematical behaviour patterns which we all follow, which are embedded in our genetics and communications with everyone.

The nub of the issue for me is the notion of torture for all eternity for lostness, seems absurd or children held accountable for something they have no real conception of. I see in Gods creation this fine balance between learning ones place and investing in others or ones own selfish ambition.

I believe I just had a thread on soteriology for children.
Children are not held responsible for sinning since they have no conception of sin.
Jesus loved children.

Some believe we become annihilated in the Lake of Fire.
Jesus did say the torment would be forever.
Matthew 25:46
46"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

God could be truly guilty of torture and terrible crimes, except He could also be the greatest optimist of all, hoping that giving everyone and everything a chance, no matter how small is worth it. But we in our mortal view have just this small view on what things we know and how things balance, yet God has the complete picture.

So I agree reformed positions often over emphasise sovereignty, while we often over emphasise choice and peoples power to over come. God bless you

Let's say right here that people cannot overcome without the help of God.
The Holy Spirit has a job to do and I believe He does it....

And, I believe we all understand that God is sovereign...not only the reformed.

 

[GodsGrace]

So very true!
I’ve always enjoyed the OT, especially Genesis, Exodus and 1and 2 Samual. Those are by far my favorites without diminishing the others.

My wife was raised in a church that prided themselves as a NT church and as such, they knew very little of the OT. In many cases they took a very negative view of it, just like you explained. We left that church and then because of Covid, had to leave the next church too. Where we landed is a Godsend! Ironically, the preacher stays mostly in the OT!

Your knowledge of the O.T. is very much appreciated by me....

 

[PaulChristensen]

Hi Paul,
I told you there'd be much we wouldn't agree on!
First, please don't call me an Arminian since I don't know what Jacob believed.

Second...saved today and lost tomorrow is a bit naive I think.
The N.T. has many verses that show a person could possibly decide to deny God and become as lost as they were before they knew our Lord. The Early Church Fathers, which would be those pre 325 AD, certainly believed salvation could lost by a person.
But we'll leave this for another day.



You also don't see any scripture that states that God predestines some to heaven.
If you believe that God chooses some to be saved...then by default He chooses some to be lost forever.
Jesus came to save anyone that wants to be saved...of course, they were unrighteous before salvation.

As to the Lamb's Book of Life....
God has foreknowledge of EVERYTHING.
He is omniscient.
He knows all...at all times.



Agreed 100%


Are you sure you're a calvinist??!!

Let me throw this at you.
God did not create evil.
Isaiah 45 states God created calamity.

There are two ways of understanding this verse (7)

1. God causes calamity (chaos, etc) by pulling back His protective hand.
He stops interjecting Himself into time and let's things go the way they will go naturally.
It's His ABSENCE that causes calamity....and this is specific to a time in Israel's history.
We all see this in Romans 1:24 when God "gave them over" to the lusts of their heart.
IOW....He abandoned them to themselves.

2. God revealed Himself to the Hebrew people. They were nomads but very ahead of their time
since those of that day were still sacrificing humans. What they might have done was to attribute everything that happened to God...The Mighty God...be it the things He actually did and those He actually did not.

I would call you an Arminian because there only only two categories of people in the world - saved and unsaved.

As far as God predestining selected people to be saved, I have my doubts. Peter talks of God's foreknowledge. My view is that He foreknew before the foundation of the world who was going to believe and put their trust in Him, and so He predestined those ones to be conformed to the image of Christ.

This is in keeping with the open invitation to anyone to believe the gospel and turn to Christ as their Saviour. That is why I believe that Christ died on the cross only for those who were, are, and will be saved - from Adam onwards - because God already knew who were going to believe the gospel, either through the O.T. prophecies about Jesus, or the gospel preached in the N.T.

Therefore, God knew that you and I would believe the gospel and turn to Christ, before we were born, even before the universe was created, and so our names were written in the Lamb's book of life.

If we were to have a look into the book of life, we will see millions of names of unborn people still to receive Christ. I had a thought, we would be able to see the very last person to be saved just before Jesus comes again!

Maybe I'm not a hard and fast Calvinist. Reading John Calvin himself, I'm not sure that he actually taught predestination in the same way that ultra Calvinist authors teach - that God makes arbitrary choices about who is going to be saved and who is going to remain lost.

It is quite true that because of Adam's disobedience, all of us were subject to the same condemnation. Outside of Christ, every single person is condemned. God would have been quite just and righteous to leave mankind in that state. He didn't have to save anyone. He was in no obligation to us at all.

I'm not sure about people being eternally tormented, but then, being separated from everything good that God has created, including light itself, and having to spend eternity in total darkness is torture itself. God created everything that we see out of nothing, and the day will come when He, with a word, will dissolve everything back to nothing. So, those who are send to a Christless eternity will exist in an environment where there is absolutely nothing. I recently had an MRI scan where I had to spend an hour and a half shut in a tube. I am not claustaphobic but I was glad to get back out of it. I went caving once, and they turned off the torches in the middle of it, and we were in total darkness. It was oppressive and couldn't see our hands in front of our faces. I think that is what hell is going to be like.

So, all God has to do with those who refuse Christ is to remove all the "goodies" He has created, leaving them with absolutely nothing. It's like sending a disobedient child to his room, except that the "room" God will send those disobedient to the gospel will have absolutely nothing in it, not even a light source.

How and why the Holy Spirit enlightens some and not others with the gospel is a mystery that many theologians have argued about over the centuries, but then, once we are saved, it became a non issue for us because the fact that we understand the gospel and believe it, is strong evidence that we have been enlightened and are saved.