Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

GOD IS A SINNER

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
Supporter
From
Inverness Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
14,141
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
I knew that was what you meant.


Can we go by personal experience? All the testimony I've heard seems to be the same...as it was with me.
Like this: All my life I knew about God...I was raised Catholic. So God did reveal Himself to me in this way.
(by going to church and hearing about Him).
But I didn't really reach out to Him till I was about 28.
At that time I felt as though He spoke to me and what He told me worked for years and years.
So God became real to me....and I thought of God as being Jesus....

The steps to me were:
God revealed Himself
I sought Him
He embraced me

I think God would be the chicken and we're His children.
And as to the knotty question....I think a person is obedient to the gospel because he has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
I don't imagine that a person could be obedient to God without the help of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit to be our comforter, our conscience, and to convict the world of sin (including us).
IOW....persons could be obeying the gospel without even knowing it....but the bible teaches that it is faith that saves us...works without faith are dead...and faith without works is a dead faith.



I believe it was your free will decision...
but Calvin woudn't agree of course.
He thought God predestined everything,,,including sinful acts by mankind.


Good insight.
But Jesus did go around and He did heal some.
This would be God revealing Himself to man.
And men did search for Jesus in the N.T.
The Roman Centurion comes to mind....
The woman that had lost blood for years reached for his tunic....
Zacharias waiting in the tree so he could see Jesus.
It's both.


I think God's nature would make it so that He would want us to know how to become saved.
As to Calvin...I agree. A great thinker is recognizable...even if we don't agree with some basic beliefs of his.
And yes, I agree that the spirit world is beyond what we could comprehend right now.
We only know what God wants us to know...even Jesus told Nicodemus we're not ready to hear it all....
And where was Mary the Queen of Heaven during all this?
 
From
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Messages
131
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
Right. God is a just God and if we're to spend our time in hell, then it should be our choice and certainly not God's.


Agreed. This is so important because many take predestined to mean that God predestined everything....
even man's salvation....and, as I stated in the O.P.,,,,this would make God the biggest sinner of all since He also determined the sins we commit.

What is predestined is HOW we're saved and not WHO is saved.
We were predestined before time to be saved IN CHRIST.
Agreed.



Elect just means chosen.
To elect someone, like the President, is to choose from among persons.
God chooses us but based on our desire to be saved and to follow His commandments.

I must say, however, that I don't understand the joy in proclaiming the gospel to someone IF, as a high calvinist would believe, it's not even up to the person to become saved!

I believe we have a thread on this.
I'll check.



Hmmm. I don't think we could agree here.
Did you see what I quoted?
He followed what Augustine believed....400 AD or so.
NO ONE before Augustine ever thought of predestination because, actually, it's not in the N.T.
Augustine was a gnostic manechaen for about 10 years and took some ideas with him to Christianity.
Guess it's difficult to let go of everything.
The church at that time really appreciated him because he was very good at debating and the Pelagius debate was going on.
But, alas, even the Catholic Church does not believe in predestination.
This is something high calvinists should ponder.

As to I Chose You , You didn't choose Me...
That would be John 15:16
Jesus was speaking to the Apostles.....
He did, in fact, choose the 12 Apostles.


Yes,,,God knew all along we would choose Him, but this is foreknowledge.
Nothing could be more clear than John 3:16
Whoever believes in Jesus will be saved....



Just want to say that foreknowledge is not causal.
Because we know something is going to happen,,,does not cause it to happen.
It was going to happen anyway and no matter what...
we just knew about it.


Yes, I understand this line of reasoning.
But it's not correct reasoning.
God's wonderful grace will give to everyone the opportunity to be saved (if they want to be).
If I have the power/ability to save every person drowning....
and I only pick out 10...
how is that wonderful grace??
Wonderful grace is if I save all....
At least those that have their arm up and want to be saved.

Also, did you ever consider this?
If God predetermined everything, including Adam's sin...
why are WE responsible for it???


Sure...except they didn't choose (according to Calvin).
According to him...GOD did all the choosing.
What you're saying above every Christian agrees with.
God does not force anyone to do anything,,,but allows them to go their way.
This goes back to your statement about how we are not robots.
Which, of course, is the way God planned it.
Why would God want robots worshipping Him?


God was making Himself be known to man even before the gospel and also to many that did not have the gospel.
Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Man will be without excuse if he denies God because God made Himself be revealed to mankind,,,whether or not they had the bible. God made Himself be known by what He created...His power, attributes and divine nature were always known to those that wished to know God.

If we read 1 Corinthians 2:14 it says that the natural man cannot understand t he things of the Spirit,,,nor can he accept them.
This is true...to understand the Spirit we must have the spirit within us and be enlightened by Him.

The question is: HOW do we come to receive the Holy Spirit (not whether or not we understand Him).
Of course the non-believer cannot understand God.
But how does one become saved?
John 3:16 tells us how.


We need to understand God in some way or other.
I find that true Calvinists change the nature of God and this is disturbing to me.
If God predestined everything, then He also predestined every murder and every act of child abuse that is taking place right now.
This I cannot accept as I believe you will also agree.

Well, nice conversation,
A good exchange of ideas with no fireworks....
:)
While in the shower this morning, I worked out the possible scenario that leads to salvation.
1. The Gospel is preached and the invitation is made.
2. The person mentally believes the Gospel and starts to genuinely seek God.
3. The Holy Spirit, in response, enlightens the person and convicts the person of sin.
4. This intensifies the desire to get right with God.
5. The Holy Spirit gives the seeker saving faith to receive Christ as Saviour and to receive the assurance that he or she is definitely saved.
6. The Holy Spirit indwells the new believer and the process of sanctification begins as the Holy Spirit teaches more truth and gives strength to overcome the works of the flesh and gives assistance to walk in the Spirit.

This goes along with Paul's statement "The Gospel of Christ is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it". This shows that the power is in the preaching of the Gospel and "faith comes by hearing the Word of God (ie: the preaching of the Gospel). So, the Gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, and listeners have a choice whether they want to believe it or not. The process then starts from there.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
28,016
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
So, the Gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, and listeners have a choice whether they want to believe it or not. The process then starts from there.

Amen
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
501
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Right.
I'd say, with all confidence, that Calvinism is very faulty.

Because God is Not a sinner.
And Calvin made God to be the biggest sinner of all.
From your posts about this dude Calvin, it seems he was a devil. These kind of people have tried to twist the entire message to serve their true master. I have little respect for similar reasons for Martin Luther as well. The message was simple
Moving away from sin, by obeying the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and moving to Loving Compassion.
I was stunned when in my heart I realised that the entire message of Bible could be represented/ summarized by one little Word ...Love. Because the Word Himself is Love . And that's why John warns in 1John 4:8 that whoever does not love, does not know God, because God is love. He repeats it again in 1 John 4: 16 so that on the last day we are not able to feign ignorance , in case we did not learn to love. While David repeatedly uses the phrase / Words UNFAILING LOVE in Psalms . Truly God is eternal and immortal love . That's the reason His Son's teaching was centered around Love. Jesus taught us when we Love God and the fellow human being we OBEY the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets ( Matthew 22:37-40 . Repeats that in Matthew 7: 12. Finally to prove that He was deadly serious , on the last day's vision Jesus declares ( Matthew 25: 31-46) the only criterion He will use to save and condemn is Love.
Proverbs 10 :12 teaches Love is opposite of Sin and it covers all Sin.1 Peter 4:8 Peter says the same thing ( uses " covers Multitide of sin " )
Sorry sister Wondering, I wandered...😁😊 Digressed a wee bit. But I see you repeatedly mention that God is Love . That is the very foundation of Bible . The beginning and end of the story ( which is a new beginning!) Is Love....as the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven .
The great I AM is Love . Coming back to folks like Calvin and Luther, had they taught people to LOVE rather than all the heresy they taught, they would have served the Lord well. But it's unfortunate, we the Church chose to follow mere mortals like these two ( and some others) when we had the Word of God in our hands. And in the process we United in error and heresy. I'm glad you started this thread. We need to wake up and follow the Lord rather than Calvins and Luthers, is the bottomline of this post .GB everyone
(All above is what I get from the Word. Please continue to believe and practise what you get from the Word of God. We will yet be judged either way)
 
From
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Messages
131
Joined
Mar 17, 2021
From your posts about this dude Calvin, it seems he was a devil. These kind of people have tried to twist the entire message to serve their true master. I have little respect for similar reasons for Martin Luther as well. The message was simple
Moving away from sin, by obeying the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and moving to Loving Compassion.
I was stunned when in my heart I realised that the entire message of Bible could be represented/ summarized by one little Word ...Love. Because the Word Himself is Love . And that's why John warns in 1John 4:8 that whoever does not love, does not know God, because God is love. He repeats it again in 1 John 4: 16 so that on the last day we are not able to feign ignorance , in case we did not learn to love. While David repeatedly uses the phrase / Words UNFAILING LOVE in Psalms . Truly God is eternal and immortal love . That's the reason His Son's teaching was centered around Love. Jesus taught us when we Love God and the fellow human being we OBEY the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets ( Matthew 22:37-40 . Repeats that in Matthew 7: 12. Finally to prove that He was deadly serious , on the last day's vision Jesus declares ( Matthew 25: 31-46) the only criterion He will use to save and condemn is Love.
Proverbs 10 :12 teaches Love is opposite of Sin and it covers all Sin.1 Peter 4:8 Peter says the same thing ( uses " covers Multitide of sin " )
Sorry sister Wondering, I wandered...😁😊 Digressed a wee bit. But I see you repeatedly mention that God is Love . That is the very foundation of Bible . The beginning and end of the story ( which is a new beginning!) Is Love....as the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven .
The great I AM is Love . Coming back to folks like Calvin and Luther, had they taught people to LOVE rather than all the heresy they taught, they would have served the Lord well. But it's unfortunate, we the Church chose to follow mere mortals like these two ( and some others) when we had the Word of God in our hands. And in the process we United in error and heresy. I'm glad you started this thread. We need to wake up and follow the Lord rather than Calvins and Luthers, is the bottomline of this post .GB everyone
(All above is what I get from the Word. Please continue to believe and practise what you get from the Word of God. We will yet be judged either way)
One thing you need to know is that Luther and Calvin laid their lives on the line to enable you to have the religious freedom you have today. If it wasn't for them you would be quoting the RCC liturgy as part of a Catholic Mass and wouldn't be allowed to own a Bible in your own language.these men were just ordinary men who brought the Gospel to the people of their time. The first three graduates of Calvin's Bible college were immediately arrested and burned alive. Both Luther faced the same if they were captured. I just wonder how your faith would stand up if you knew that you could be burned alive for just owning an English Bible as many in Calvin's time were?
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
And where was Mary the Queen of Heaven during all this?
On her throne in heaven???
LOL
What does this have to do with the price of beans?
Learn to love Mary...the Lord's mother.
I think of her at the foot of that cross often.
 

Elihoenai

 
Member
From
London, England
Gender
Male
Messages
227
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
From your posts about this dude Calvin, it seems he was a devil. These kind of people have tried to twist the entire message to serve their true master. I have little respect for similar reasons for Martin Luther as well. The message was simple
Moving away from sin, by obeying the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and moving to Loving Compassion.
I was stunned when in my heart I realised that the entire message of Bible could be represented/ summarized by one little Word ...Love. Because the Word Himself is Love . And that's why John warns in 1John 4:8 that whoever does not love, does not know God, because God is love. He repeats it again in 1 John 4: 16 so that on the last day we are not able to feign ignorance , in case we did not learn to love. While David repeatedly uses the phrase / Words UNFAILING LOVE in Psalms . Truly God is eternal and immortal love . That's the reason His Son's teaching was centered around Love. Jesus taught us when we Love God and the fellow human being we OBEY the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets ( Matthew 22:37-40 . Repeats that in Matthew 7: 12. Finally to prove that He was deadly serious , on the last day's vision Jesus declares ( Matthew 25: 31-46) the only criterion He will use to save and condemn is Love.
Proverbs 10 :12 teaches Love is opposite of Sin and it covers all Sin.1 Peter 4:8 Peter says the same thing ( uses " covers Multitide of sin " )
Sorry sister Wondering, I wandered...😁😊 Digressed a wee bit. But I see you repeatedly mention that God is Love . That is the very foundation of Bible . The beginning and end of the story ( which is a new beginning!) Is Love....as the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven .
The great I AM is Love . Coming back to folks like Calvin and Luther, had they taught people to LOVE rather than all the heresy they taught, they would have served the Lord well. But it's unfortunate, we the Church chose to follow mere mortals like these two ( and some others) when we had the Word of God in our hands. And in the process we United in error and heresy. I'm glad you started this thread. We need to wake up and follow the Lord rather than Calvins and Luthers, is the bottomline of this post .GB everyone
(All above is what I get from the Word. Please continue to believe and practise what you get from the Word of God. We will yet be judged either way)

Psalm 139:21-22 King James Version

21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Luke 14:26 King James Version

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

How do you see the above Scriptures?

Agreed on what said about moving away from Sin and Calvin and Luther.
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
607
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
Since Mary was introduced and this is Holy Week...

“Mary’s participation in Christ’s suffering began with the annunciation, when she was asked to give God a human body, more properly, a human nature. In other words, will you make God capable of suffering? God though He was, He learned obedience in the school of suffering. God could know experimentally what suffering was only by taking a body. So the Blessed Mother is asked, will you make it possible for your creator to suffer? And here Mary has to say yes, I will let him suffer.” Archbishop Fulton Sheen, Through the Year with Fulton Sheen
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
501
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Psalm 139:21-22 King James Version

21 Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Luke 14:26 King James Version

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

How do you see the above Scriptures?

Agreed on what said about moving away from Sin and Calvin and Luther.
Love is what I see from these outstanding verses. Luke 14:26 is a verse exceedingly close to my heart, mind and soul. Because I hate my life . So I'm very glad it's in line with what the Lord taught :) As He was rejected by His own , I was rejected by my own, and it's one if the worst feelings one can experience ----- when my own half, my wife and my two step daughters chose to reject me last year. Deep in my grief and rejection, I realized how severe the Lord's feelings of rejection must be on the last day , prior to crucifixion. Some of those He had healed and given new life wanted his blood. His own disciples forsook Him. Battered, broken , both physically and emotionally as the Lord of the Universe lay dying on a wooden cross, His Father turned His face away. So deep was our Lord's rejection and so profound the Hate of Father God for sin.
Once we keep this picture in mind and our heart and soul, Luke 14:26 meaning becomes crystal clear.
Jesus is saying loud and clear that UNLESS you love me more than ANYONE or ANYTHING in your life You. Are. NOT. Worthy. Of. Me. His message is not to hate others but to make sure we not only love Jesus with our heart and soul but keep Him above everyone and everything, else we cannot be saved. Yup He wanted ALL from us , just as He gave His ALL. A perfect COVENANT.
And I simply adore this scripture . Because it completely rejects the heresy of Saved by Faith Alone, that was taught ( touted! really) over the past five centuries. Jesus gave His All. Now He wants it ALL from us, should we want to be His disciple.
Jesus warns us in Matthew 16 :25 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” A far cry from what an overwhelming majority of Churches taught for centuries ( just believe and get into heaven) and must now face the judgment on the last day which is almost upon us . Wish the Churches had taught Jesus...

Psalm 139: 21-22
David is doing exactly what Christ taught in Luke 14:26. He is so overwhelmed with the Love for God that all those who love Him , David loves while all God haters he cannot stand . It's simply because of the incredible Love of David for Father God.
It was all about Love then....

Thank you for sharing these beautiful verses for love of God, although at first glance they suggest hate. Not the case, upon a deeper examination and study .

Finally my take on what happened in the Garden of eden. Adam started loving Eve more than Father God who had created Eve to be his helper. This exceeding love for his wife was ( also) responsible for his downfall. He didnt want to see Eve die alone and he also ate the forbidden fruit , that she had. His love for eve exceeded that for God .... Do you see the connection between that and Luke 14:26.
We have to learn to love Jesus Christ more than our wife , wealth, kids brothers SISTERS friends goals and our own lives and everything else in this sin infected world, now ripe for destruction, IF. WE . WANT. TO . BE. SAVED
And for this reason only a FEW will make it on the last day as prophesied by the Messiah in :

Matthew 7:13,14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Luke 13:23,24
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

( those FEW are mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46) . They fought their fleshly desires, picked up the cross of the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and walked TO and IN Love , practicing loving compassion even on strangers , just as the part pagan Goid Samaritan had done , and captured the Heart of LOVE .. oops I meant Christ ...who is Love
( my profound apologies for the longer post .. I pray forgiveness)
 

Elihoenai

 
Member
From
London, England
Gender
Male
Messages
227
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Love is what I see from these outstanding verses. Luke 14:26 is a verse exceedingly close to my heart, mind and soul. Because I hate my life . So I'm very glad it's in line with what the Lord taught :) As He was rejected by His own , I was rejected by my own, and it's one if the worst feelings one can experience ----- when my own half, my wife and my two step daughters chose to reject me last year. Deep in my grief and rejection, I realized how severe the Lord's feelings of rejection must be on the last day , prior to crucifixion. Some of those He had healed and given new life wanted his blood. His own disciples forsook Him. Battered, broken , both physically and emotionally as the Lord of the Universe lay dying on a wooden cross, His Father turned His face away. So deep was our Lord's rejection and so profound the Hate of Father God for sin.
Once we keep this picture in mind and our heart and soul, Luke 14:26 meaning becomes crystal clear.
Jesus is saying loud and clear that UNLESS you love me more than ANYONE or ANYTHING in your life You. Are. NOT. Worthy. Of. Me. His message is not to hate others but to make sure we not only love Jesus with our heart and soul but keep Him above everyone and everything, else we cannot be saved. Yup He wanted ALL from us , just as He gave His ALL. A perfect COVENANT.
And I simply adore this scripture . Because it completely rejects the heresy of Saved by Faith Alone, that was taught ( touted! really) over the past five centuries. Jesus gave His All. Now He wants it ALL from us, should we want to be His disciple.
Jesus warns us in Matthew 16 :25 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” A far cry from what an overwhelming majority of Churches taught for centuries ( just believe and get into heaven) and must now face the judgment on the last day which is almost upon us . Wish the Churches had taught Jesus...

Psalm 139: 21-22
David is doing exactly what Christ taught in Luke 14:26. He is so overwhelmed with the Love for God that all those who love Him , David loves while all God haters he cannot stand . It's simply because of the incredible Love of David for Father God.
It was all about Love then....

Thank you for sharing these beautiful verses for love of God, although at first glance they suggest hate. Not the case, upon a deeper examination and study .

Finally my take on what happened in the Garden of eden. Adam started loving Eve more than Father God who had created Eve to be his helper. This exceeding love for his wife was ( also) responsible for his downfall. He didnt want to see Eve die alone and he also ate the forbidden fruit , that she had. His love for eve exceeded that for God .... Do you see the connection between that and Luke 14:26.
We have to learn to love Jesus Christ more than our wife , wealth, kids brothers SISTERS friends goals and our own lives and everything else in this sin infected world, now ripe for destruction, IF. WE . WANT. TO . BE. SAVED
And for this reason only a FEW will make it on the last day as prophesied by the Messiah in :

Matthew 7:13,14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Luke 13:23,24
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

( those FEW are mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46) . They fought their fleshly desires, picked up the cross of the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and walked TO and IN Love , practicing loving compassion even on strangers , just as the part pagan Goid Samaritan had done , and captured the Heart of LOVE .. oops I meant Christ ...who is Love
( my profound apologies for the longer post .. I pray forgiveness)

Ecclesiastes 3:8 King James Version

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Given that there is a time to Love and a time to Hate, than it follows that Love is not the same as Hate. Do you agree with The Preacher that there is a time for Love and a time for Hate?
 

Walpole

Member
From
USA
Gender
Male
Messages
607
Joined
Sep 9, 2018
One thing you need to know is that Luther and Calvin laid their lives on the line to enable you to have the religious freedom you have today. If it wasn't for them you would be quoting the RCC liturgy as part of a Catholic Mass and wouldn't be allowed to own a Bible in your own language.these men were just ordinary men who brought the Gospel to the people of their time. The first three graduates of Calvin's Bible college were immediately arrested and burned alive. Both Luther faced the same if they were captured. I just wonder how your faith would stand up if you knew that you could be burned alive for just owning an English Bible as many in Calvin's time were?
This post is full of falsehoods. Just about every sentence is false.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Ecclesiastes 3:8 King James Version

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Given that there is a time to Love and a time to Hate, than it follows that Love is not the same as Hate. Do you agree with The Preacher that there is a time for Love and a time for Hate?
All we are to hate is sin.
War.
Famine.
Abuse.
etc.....
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
501
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Ecclesiastes 3:8 King James Version

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

Given that there is a time to Love and a time to Hate, than it follows that Love is not the same as Hate. Do you agree with The Preacher that there is a time for Love and a time for Hate?
Sure, we have a full spectrum of emotions. Hate and anger being two strong ones there. Yet it's towards Love that the Christ pointed at, in Matthew 5:43-46
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward have you?
The emotions of which hate is an intrinsic part, act as a challenge to a true follower, who at some point in time decides / resolves that no matter what " I'll pick up the Cross of Christ , deny my flesh, (of desires of money and lust and worldly seductions) and follow the Lord". Making a walk from hate , lust , anger and jealousy to L-O-V-E.
This was the call of Christ and John ( Matthew 22:37-40, mathhew 7:12, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
This walk, if I may so so, is a walk literally from hell to heaven. And if someone wishes to be saved , this is the ONLY way Christ prescribed. And had we Christians been taught this earnestly , many would have fought their negative emotions and picked up the Cross and made the Walk to Love. Alas we were not taught that . Else we would see millions of loving Christians. We were born for this walk . From Sin to Love . But few will make it. These are the Sheep of Christ and the ones who'll be saved on the last day reveals the Judge ( matthew 25:31-46) .
We have to fight our sinfulness and walk to the realm of Loving compassion. It's not only possible, but it's the most beautiful feeling ever . Albeit requires a lot of discipline ( that's why we are disciples!) And practise . GB everyone.....Raj
 
Last edited:

Elihoenai

 
Member
From
London, England
Gender
Male
Messages
227
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
All we are to hate is sin.
War.
Famine.
Abuse.
etc.....

Are you saying that you disagree with The Preacher? There is a time of War and a time of Peace.

When Yeshua/Jesus instructs to Hate Mother, Father, Wife, Children, Brethren and Sisters otherwise cannot be my Disciple, Yeshua/Jesus is talking about people. Do you see differently? When David states that he Hates those, O Lord, that hate, he is talking about people that are the enemies of Elohim/God. Do you see differently?
 

Elihoenai

 
Member
From
London, England
Gender
Male
Messages
227
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Sure, we have a full spectrum of emotions. Hate and anger being two strong ones there. Yet it's towards Love that the Christ pointed at, in Matthew 5:43-46
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward have you?
The emotions of which hate is an intrinsic part, act as a challenge to a true follower, who at some point in time decides / resolves that no matter what " I'll pick up the Cross of Christ , deny my flesh, (of desires of money and lust and worldly seductions) and follow the Lord". Making a walk from hate , lust , anger and jealousy to L-O-V-E.
This was the call of Christ and John ( Matthew 22:37-40, mathhew 7:12, 1 John 4:8, 1 John 4:16)
This walk, if I may so so, is a walk literally from hell to heaven. And if someone wishes to be saved , this is the ONLY way Christ prescribed. And had we Christians been taught this earnestly , many would have fought their negative emotions and picked up the Cross and made the Walk to Love. Alas we were not taught that . Else we would see millions of loving Christians. We were born for this walk . From Sin to Love . But few will make it. These are the Sheep of Christ and the ones who'll be saved on the last day reveals the Judge ( matthew 25:31-46) .
We have to fight our sinfulness and walk to the realm of Loving compassion. It's not only possible, but it's the most beautiful feeling ever . Albeit requires a lot of discipline ( that's why we are disciples!) And practise . GB everyone.....Raj

How do you reconcile Luke 14:26 and Matthew 5:43-46? We are instructed to Hate in Luke 14:26. We agree that Hate is not the same as Love.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
One thing you need to know is that Luther and Calvin laid their lives on the line to enable you to have the religious freedom you have today. If it wasn't for them you would be quoting the RCC liturgy as part of a Catholic Mass and wouldn't be allowed to own a Bible in your own language.these men were just ordinary men who brought the Gospel to the people of their time. The first three graduates of Calvin's Bible college were immediately arrested and burned alive. Both Luther faced the same if they were captured. I just wonder how your faith would stand up if you knew that you could be burned alive for just owning an English Bible as many in Calvin's time were?
This is also for Rajesh Sahu

Some comments on the above which will get into history....

I agree that Calvin and Luther laid their lives on the line for what they believed, as did Tyndale and others.
This has happened throughout history, including the Apostles and even the early believers that were killed by Rome.

I also agree that by the 1500's the Catholc Church was in need of some reformation....I would have liked it to go back to the roots of Christianity and have seen some of the doctrine that was created by then revoked since the CC had made too many regulations, IMHO. I would have liked to see the bible be distributed and explained to people - although the reason this was not done was because of the illiteracy rate. Other methods were used to teach about the bible....stained glass windows in churches...the rosary, the Via Crucis which tells the story of Jesus' death and probably other methods which don't come to mind right now.

OTOH....The reformation caused much strife in Europe and caused thousands of lives to be lost...bringing it up to date,,,I think of the troubles in Ireland. Catholic against Protestant - as it is to this day.

So in a way it was good to shake up the CC and in a way it was not good because it caused our faith to become splintered and look where we are today - hundreds of denominations, not counting the Independent ones.

But, we also must say that if it were not for the CC, our faith as we have it today would not exist.
It was the early church that fought heresies and did its best to keep the faith pure...at least until it became a part of the state
and got into politics, when it began to change.

So really, we could thank the CC for what we have today...we could have been some form of gnosticism...
we could have believed that Jesus was a nice teacher...we never would have known about the Trinity...
we never would have known the help we receive from the Holy Spirit, and more.

I've been to Mass and I don't see what the problem is....
It's very beautiful and I can think of nothing wrong about it.

I wish there would be more teaching, but priests tell me it's not a schoolroom - which is also correct.

Instead....when the reformation came along, Luther and others took the original doctrine of the CC and made an effort to change everything, even that which should not have been changed. Luther, for instance believed in the Eucharist as the process of transubstantiation and which some denominations accept as the Real Presence.

Confession became obsolete and the doctrine of predestination actually changed the nature of God.
If we want to speak about "a different gospel",,,then certainly the reformers presented a different gospel.

It's not as easy as you present...that is my point.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
Are you saying that you disagree with The Preacher? There is a time of War and a time of Peace.

When Yeshua/Jesus instructs to Hate Mother, Father, Wife, Children, Brethren and Sisters otherwise cannot be my Disciple, Yeshua/Jesus is talking about people. Do you see differently? When David states that he Hates those, O Lord, that hate, he is talking about people that are the enemies of Elohim/God. Do you see differently?
You can't be serious.
You believe Jesus meant that we are to hate our parents and siblings?
You seem intelligent enough to know what Jesus meant,,,,

How do you reconcile that with
HONOR YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR FATHER.

LOVE EVEN YOUR ENEMIES.

??
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
How do you reconcile Luke 14:26 and Matthew 5:43-46? We are instructed to Hate in Luke 14:26. We agree that Hate is not the same as Love.
I'd like you to answer this....
I'm sure you know the answer....
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,499
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
The cross is gone.
The romanist popes sold piece by piece until they destroyed an entire forest!!!
The romanist popes have upheld our moral values...at least until this Pope.
And please read my post no. 77
Some teachings of some denominations are truly heretical and not biblical and put their people in danger of being lost.
And the CC is not one of them.
 
Top