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GOD IS A SINNER

wondering

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While in the shower this morning, I worked out the possible scenario that leads to salvation.
1. The Gospel is preached and the invitation is made.
2. The person mentally believes the Gospel and starts to genuinely seek God.
3. The Holy Spirit, in response, enlightens the person and convicts the person of sin.
4. This intensifies the desire to get right with God.
5. The Holy Spirit gives the seeker saving faith to receive Christ as Saviour and to receive the assurance that he or she is definitely saved.
6. The Holy Spirit indwells the new believer and the process of sanctification begins as the Holy Spirit teaches more truth and gives strength to overcome the works of the flesh and gives assistance to walk in the Spirit.

This goes along with Paul's statement "The Gospel of Christ is the power of God that leads to salvation to those who believe it". This shows that the power is in the preaching of the Gospel and "faith comes by hearing the Word of God (ie: the preaching of the Gospel). So, the Gospel is preached in the power of the Holy Spirit, and listeners have a choice whether they want to believe it or not. The process then starts from there.
:clap
Great post!
 
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This is also for Rajesh Sahu

Some comments on the above which will get into history....

I agree that Calvin and Luther laid their lives on the line for what they believed, as did Tyndale and others.
This has happened throughout history, including the Apostles and even the early believers that were killed by Rome.

I also agree that by the 1500's the Catholc Church was in need of some reformation....I would have liked it to go back to the roots of Christianity and have seen some of the doctrine that was created by then revoked since the CC had made too many regulations, IMHO. I would have liked to see the bible be distributed and explained to people - although the reason this was not done was because of the illiteracy rate. Other methods were used to teach about the bible....stained glass windows in churches...the rosary, the Via Crucis which tells the story of Jesus' death and probably other methods which don't come to mind right now.

OTOH....The reformation caused much strife in Europe and caused thousands of lives to be lost...bringing it up to date,,,I think of the troubles in Ireland. Catholic against Protestant - as it is to this day.

So in a way it was good to shake up the CC and in a way it was not good because it caused our faith to become splintered and look where we are today - hundreds of denominations, not counting the Independent ones.

But, we also must say that if it were not for the CC, our faith as we have it today would not exist.
It was the early church that fought heresies and did its best to keep the faith pure...at least until it became a part of the state
and got into politics, when it began to change.

So really, we could thank the CC for what we have today...we could have been some form of gnosticism...
we could have believed that Jesus was a nice teacher...we never would have known about the Trinity...
we never would have known the help we receive from the Holy Spirit, and more.

I've been to Mass and I don't see what the problem is....
It's very beautiful and I can think of nothing wrong about it.

I wish there would be more teaching, but priests tell me it's not a schoolroom - which is also correct.

Instead....when the reformation came along, Luther and others took the original doctrine of the CC and made an effort to change everything, even that which should not have been changed. Luther, for instance believed in the Eucharist as the process of transubstantiation and which some denominations accept as the Real Presence.

Confession became obsolete and the doctrine of predestination actually changed the nature of God.
If we want to speak about "a different gospel",,,then certainly the reformers presented a different gospel.

It's not as easy as you present...that is my point.
Yes, I can understand that. I appreciate your intelligent discussion even though we might differ on a couple of points. Better than the last guy who said that every I posted was false, without justifying his answer by anything remotely helpful.
 

wondering

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Yes, I can understand that. I appreciate your intelligent discussion even though we might differ on a couple of points. Better than the last guy who said that every I posted was false, without justifying his answer by anything remotely helpful.
He was probably too tired!
He knows his history....

I see the good and the bad of the reformation.


cat on fence.jpg yeah.
 

Rajesh Sahu

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All we are to hate is sin.
War.
Famine.
Abuse.
etc.....
How do you reconcile Luke 14:26 and Matthew 5:43-46? We are instructed to Hate in Luke 14:26. We agree that Hate is not the same as Love.
O think you are suggesting Jesus taught hate through Luke 14:26 .But that's not the case. You are making the dangerous mistake of using one verse as a standalone verse to describe/ highlihght
a teaching/ message of Christ. Standalone verse quotation is tentamount to Cherrypicking verses, which does injustice to the Lord. It's the strategy devil used while testing Christ in the wilderness. But Jesus thwarted that move by reminding devil " But it's also written" and balanced the verses devil cited with other verses , in order to get the TRUE picture ( not half!)
So I would suggest, please refrain from Cherrypicking and balance Luke 14:26 with all the verses and vital importance of Love that Jesus highlighted . Like Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Good Samaritan story, and even the judgment day scene Matthew 25:31-46
 

wondering

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O think you are suggesting Jesus taught hate through Luke 14:26 .But that's not the case. You are making the dangerous mistake of using one verse as a standalone verse to describe/ highlihght
a teaching/ message of Christ. Standalone verse quotation is tentamount to Cherrypicking verses, which does injustice to the Lord. It's the strategy devil used while testing Christ in the wilderness. But Jesus thwarted that move by reminding devil " But it's also written" and balanced the verses devil cited with other verses , in order to get the TRUE picture ( not half!)
So I would suggest, please refrain from Cherrypicking and balance Luke 14:26 with all the verses and vital importance of Love that Jesus highlighted . Like Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Good Samaritan story, and even the judgment day scene Matthew 25:31-46
LOL
I'll bet the other member knows Jesus is not teaching hate....!
Still waiting for his reply.
 

Elihoenai

 
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You can't be serious.
You believe Jesus meant that we are to hate our parents and siblings?
You seem intelligent enough to know what Jesus meant,,,,

How do you reconcile that with
HONOR YOUR MOTHER AND YOUR FATHER.

LOVE EVEN YOUR ENEMIES.

??

You didn't answer the questions about The Preacher on War and David Hating the enemies of Elohim/God.
 

Elihoenai

 
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O think you are suggesting Jesus taught hate through Luke 14:26 .But that's not the case. You are making the dangerous mistake of using one verse as a standalone verse to describe/ highlihght
a teaching/ message of Christ. Standalone verse quotation is tentamount to Cherrypicking verses, which does injustice to the Lord. It's the strategy devil used while testing Christ in the wilderness. But Jesus thwarted that move by reminding devil " But it's also written" and balanced the verses devil cited with other verses , in order to get the TRUE picture ( not half!)
So I would suggest, please refrain from Cherrypicking and balance Luke 14:26 with all the verses and vital importance of Love that Jesus highlighted . Like Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Good Samaritan story, and even the judgment day scene Matthew 25:31-46

Romans 9:13 King James Version

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Keeping with being balanced, Elohim/God Hates!
 

wondering

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You didn't answer the questions about The Preacher on War and David Hating the enemies of Elohim/God.
Who is our neighbor?
Jesus wants to know.

And did you know that the O.T. taught some doctrine which was not agreed to by Jesus/the New Testament?

You know when Jesus says:
YOU HAVE HEARD IT SAID.....

In the old testament enemies were hated,,,but Jesus said to love even our enemies because it's easy to love our friends.

So how do YOU reconcile all the verses YOU brought up?
Jesus said to hate our mother and father....
God said to honor our mother and father....

And judging from your post no. 93,,,I think you have some studying to do on God hating....
God does not hate what He created.
God loves......
 

Elihoenai

 
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Love is what I see from these outstanding verses. Luke 14:26 is a verse exceedingly close to my heart, mind and soul. Because I hate my life . So I'm very glad it's in line with what the Lord taught :) As He was rejected by His own , I was rejected by my own, and it's one if the worst feelings one can experience ----- when my own half, my wife and my two step daughters chose to reject me last year. Deep in my grief and rejection, I realized how severe the Lord's feelings of rejection must be on the last day , prior to crucifixion. Some of those He had healed and given new life wanted his blood. His own disciples forsook Him. Battered, broken , both physically and emotionally as the Lord of the Universe lay dying on a wooden cross, His Father turned His face away. So deep was our Lord's rejection and so profound the Hate of Father God for sin.
Once we keep this picture in mind and our heart and soul, Luke 14:26 meaning becomes crystal clear.
Jesus is saying loud and clear that UNLESS you love me more than ANYONE or ANYTHING in your life You. Are. NOT. Worthy. Of. Me. His message is not to hate others but to make sure we not only love Jesus with our heart and soul but keep Him above everyone and everything, else we cannot be saved. Yup He wanted ALL from us , just as He gave His ALL. A perfect COVENANT.
And I simply adore this scripture . Because it completely rejects the heresy of Saved by Faith Alone, that was taught ( touted! really) over the past five centuries. Jesus gave His All. Now He wants it ALL from us, should we want to be His disciple.
Jesus warns us in Matthew 16 :25 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” A far cry from what an overwhelming majority of Churches taught for centuries ( just believe and get into heaven) and must now face the judgment on the last day which is almost upon us . Wish the Churches had taught Jesus...

Psalm 139: 21-22
David is doing exactly what Christ taught in Luke 14:26. He is so overwhelmed with the Love for God that all those who love Him , David loves while all God haters he cannot stand . It's simply because of the incredible Love of David for Father God.
It was all about Love then....

Thank you for sharing these beautiful verses for love of God, although at first glance they suggest hate. Not the case, upon a deeper examination and study .

Finally my take on what happened in the Garden of eden. Adam started loving Eve more than Father God who had created Eve to be his helper. This exceeding love for his wife was ( also) responsible for his downfall. He didnt want to see Eve die alone and he also ate the forbidden fruit , that she had. His love for eve exceeded that for God .... Do you see the connection between that and Luke 14:26.
We have to learn to love Jesus Christ more than our wife , wealth, kids brothers SISTERS friends goals and our own lives and everything else in this sin infected world, now ripe for destruction, IF. WE . WANT. TO . BE. SAVED
And for this reason only a FEW will make it on the last day as prophesied by the Messiah in :

Matthew 7:13,14
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 20:16
So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Luke 13:23,24
Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

( those FEW are mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46) . They fought their fleshly desires, picked up the cross of the Lord ( Matthew 10 :38) and walked TO and IN Love , practicing loving compassion even on strangers , just as the part pagan Goid Samaritan had done , and captured the Heart of LOVE .. oops I meant Christ ...who is Love
( my profound apologies for the longer post .. I pray forgiveness)

Exodus 15:3 King James Version

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

To guard against bewitchment and for members consideration:

1) For over 2000 years the so-called Christian Church have cast a spell over those they control with the word LOVE, while doing the works of the Devil/Satan of Sodomy, Genocide, Pedophilia, Bestiality, Mass Rape and Torture. Wake up and smell the coffee, not that I drink coffee.

2) Every Church on the planet is controlled by Nazi-KKK Freemasons. Freemasons are Knight Templars and Knight Templars are soldiers of the Vatican. This explains why Christians are the most Hate filled people on the planet and they Hate for Wrong Reasons.

3) Protestants have always been Roman Catholic and the RCC Church has given fabricated history about Protestant Martyrs. Protestants, such as, Luther and Calvin have always been Roman Catholic. It's Phony Opposition.

4) We are under 24/7 surveillance and harassment from filthy sexually perverted Freemason Sodomites, Pedophilles, Rapist and those practising Bestiality. Evidently this is State organised RCC Crusade and Inquisition. They are trying to force us to do Evil. This has been ongoing for many years.

5) We are at War with the Vatican for the Right Reasons.
 
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Exodus 15:3 King James Version

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

To guard against bewitchment and for members consideration:

1) For over 2000 years the so-called Christian Church have cast a spell over those they control with the word LOVE, while doing the works of the Devil/Satan of Sodomy, Genocide, Pedophilia, Bestiality, Mass Rape and Torture. Wake up and smell the coffee, not that I drink coffee.

2) Every Church on the planet is controlled by Nazi-KKK Freemasons. Freemasons are Knight Templars and Knight Templars are soldiers of the Vatican. This explains why Christians are the most Hate filled people on the planet and they Hate for Wrong Reasons.

3) Protestants have always been Roman Catholic and the RCC Church has given fabricated history about Protestant Martyrs. Protestants, such as, Luther and Calvin have always been Roman Catholic. It's Phony Opposition.

4) We are under 24/7 surveillance and harassment from filthy sexually perverted Freemason Sodomites, Pedophilles, Rapist and those practising Bestiality. Evidently this is State organised RCC Crusade and Inquisition. They are trying to force us to do Evil. This has been ongoing for many years.

5) We are at War with the Vatican for the Right Reasons.
So you finally quit asking questions and revealed what your about..........
 

wondering

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this idea has been addressed by some of the smartest apologists and theologians we have and they don't always agree. My attitude: believe what system you want but more important is to do as Christ commanded. Love God and others. The place to start. And remember, no one has a perfect theology and that includes Calvinists.

Hi PZ
You bring up many points of interest.
As to the smartes theologians not agreeing on determinism...I'd have to say that the Early Church Fathers (pre 325AD) had no notion of the idea of determinism. They spoke of how they were to behave to gain heaven and that's about it....how they needed God's grace to conform to the image of Christ and this type of thinking.

I agree to what you said about doing as Christ commanded and loving others.
And I agree that no church has the perfect theology but calvinism changes the nature of God.

Too many cooks do in fact spoil the soup and too many theologians with differing views have brought confusion into the Faith. It's not helpful for example to have 4 views of hell by 4 different well-trained theologians. If they can't agree, why listen to me on that topic?
ha! Because YOU might be right!
And our view on hell is not very important for soteriological purposes...one may think what they want to.
Jesus gave a pretty good idea...we shouldn't wander far from that.

Same with any theological system.

Read your Bible, do your best to do what it says. Pray for understanding. Love God, love others. If that's done, you will do well.

I do like Piper and Sproul though. But I am not interested in systems. Better to study the early Church Fathers but beware, they had their problems too!
Agreed 100%...doing our best and loving God and others is the best we can do.
I've always said that doctrine does not save us.
Gee. I even believe Calvinists are saved....:)
Who are we to know who is and who isn't?
We're to stay at the foot of the cross.

As to Piper and Sproul....I like them too. It's unfortunate they espouse an incorrect God with the wrong attributes.
Their exegesis on other matters is really good. This might be one of the reasons some young Christians end up being calvinists.
 
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