God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

[GodsGrace]

Yes 1st the 2nd Peter are written to the elect saints who have been scattered no and chapter 3 Peter is contrasting the mockers and scoffers with the beloved saints saints So if you set out a piece of paper and you look at what he says ask the beloved towards us and then contrast it with the wicked the scoffers the one who opposed God the whole time you all see when you get down to verse 89 and all the way down to the end of the chapter does a contrast of the elect and the non electric scoffers and reprobates. You will see the long suffering of God is that hes not willing he bears with the wicked because it's not willing that any of those is Purpose to save all lost he uses a stronger word in the Greek The word bullet my means to create Destin and purposed and hes not willing that any that he is speaking of will parish he will bear with the wicked until everyone is in the place is safe and safely drawn to chri'll show it later on when I could get to a keyboard I'm using voice to text right now but you can see it that'll give you a hint as to what the passage is really teaching

Here's my question: I DO try to understand calvinism even though I don't agree with it.
Because, dear friend, it just makes no sense to me....

You say above that God wishes none of the saved to perish.
He will bear with the wicked --- and then I get kind of lost.

But here's the question:
Why would the ones God is speaking of, the elect, perish?
Isn't salvation eternal?

I think the passage is really teaching what I wrote above in my post.
I explained verse by verse.
Would you be willing to do the same when you get to your computer?

IOW, I always feel like you and others add your own words to verses.

 

[rogerg]

Where does it say they were GIVEN faith?

Obtained through the righteousness of God = given

[2Pe 1:1, 3 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: ...

Given unto us all things unto life = given

[2Pe 1:3 KJV] 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Do you understand what I'm saying?

The question is do you understand what you're saying, and I'm getting tired of answering the same
points you raise.

Did you check out my link?
Why do you think YOU know more than all those theologians I linked for you?
Where does it state that NONE OF THE ELECT SHOULD PERISH?
Open up your mind...
read what it says and don't add your own theology to it.
Don't add to what scripture states.
John said not to do this in his last writing.

No. Didn't need to
They're saying what you're saying - they're wrong.
Why open my mind to that which is wrong - that doesn't make sense.

If GOD DETERMINES every single act of ours...
WHY is He giving instruction?

It's like this: I'M going to put together the dinner, but I'm giving YOU instruction on how to do it.
It Makes No Sense.

Because those saved must be taught things spiritual for knowledge- it is called the edifying of the saints. Those who are saved don't wake up one morning knowing everything, but that need doesn't affect salvation.
The dinner analogy is illogical and incorrect. Regarding salvation, no one has to be taught it in order to receive it - it is given solely as a gift

 

[Robert Pate]

Here's my question: I DO try to understand calvinism even though I don't agree with it.
Because, dear friend, it just makes no sense to me....

You say above that God wishes none of the saved to perish.
He will bear with the wicked --- and then I get kind of lost.

But here's the question:
Why would the ones God is speaking of, the elect, perish?
Isn't salvation eternal?

I think the passage is really teaching what I wrote above in my post.
I explained verse by verse.
Would you be willing to do the same when you get to your computer?

IOW, I always feel like you and others add your own words to verses.

The best part of your post is when you said, "I don't agree with it" and then you said, "It just makes no sense to me". Religion is very complicated and confusing. Paul said that the Gospel is very simple message, 2 Corinthians 11:3.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here's my question: I DO try to understand calvinism even though I don't agree with it.
Because, dear friend, it just makes no sense to me....

You say above that God wishes none of the saved to perish.
He will bear with the wicked --- and then I get kind of lost.

But here's the question:
Why would the ones God is speaking of, the elect, perish?
Isn't salvation eternal?

I think the passage is really teaching what I wrote above in my post.
I explained verse by verse.
Would you be willing to do the same when you get to your computer?

IOW, I always feel like you and others add your own words to verses.

I will go line by line when I get on my computer as you can tell by the bad grammar and spelling I'm using voice to text and it's very loud in my truck and so it's changing the words
The word used was boulamai..
Which means,decreed,destined, or purposed.
Peter was not concerned with saved people becoming lost, but He wrote 2000yrs ago
we were not born yet,So God dhas not destroyed the world of the ungodly yet.
He is longsuffering until all who were in the Covenant of Redemption areborn of God.

misspelling them

 

[rogerg]

Those who were chosen were chosen because they answered God's requirements for salvation.

No. They were chosen before the foundation of the world because of what they did because they didn't exist, so it couldn't be because they answered God's requirements for salvation - not possible.
You provided this verse, yet you don't understand what it means. Look at the "that we should be holy and without blame" part. They were chosen by God to be made HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME, not that they were holy and without blame because they satisfied God's requirements. God's choosing of them is what made them holy and without blame - not by they had done.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, Peter is addressing those that are already saved.


How could it be specifically for the elect?
It says that God is not willing that any SHOULD PERISH...
The elect are ALREAY SAVED...

2 Peter 3:9 NASB
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.


2 Peter 3:9 NLT
8But you must not forget this one thing, dear friends: A day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and a thousand years is like a day.
9The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.

It does say PATIENT TOWARD YOU
and PATIENT FOR YOUR SAKE...

So I find this a bit confusing, so, as usual, I check out all the commentaries on biblehub.
All of them agree that ALL PERSONS are being spoken of in verse 9...
HE DOES NOT WANT ANYONE TO PERISH...

It is akin to 1 Timothy 2:4...God desires all men to become saved...
and Ezekiel 18:23 NLT
23“Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live.


The commentators also mentioned that they come to this conclusion because of God's loving nature.

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/2_peter/3-9.htm


Addressed above.

I also want to say that in 2 Peter 3:1 Peter states that he is refreshing, or stirring up, or stimulating their wholesome thinking...
This makes me believe that we are to do this on our own, with the help of the Holy Spirit, and that God did not predestinate the degree to how our wholesome thinking is - or this line of Peter's would not be necessary.

IOW, when we're commanded to do something, I believe God wants US TO DO the action...
And through our free will by obeying the command.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wondering...let me make a positive presentation, then I will go over your posts ,line by line.

I will highlight the verses addressed speaking of the elect, In RED...Then the vs. speaking of the unsaved scoffers in contrast blue to show the contrast and set the context a bit.

2 Peter 3

King James Version

​

3 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved
what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before,
beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


D[o you see the clear contrast as he speaks positive words to those who are saved now, those who will be saved, in the future.
You denied the Covenant of Redemption exists, but if you understood it you will know that everyone Peter is speaking to, will indeed be saved, God is not willing that anyone of them perish.

God is very willing that multitudes will perish, justly for their sins, in that have no High Priest, interceding for them eternally

 

[Iconoclast]

"wondering,
[If those on my side of the fence hate election and predestination],[Iconoclast,

There are no sides of "the fence", There is truth and error

[I could safely say that those on your side of the fence hate the love
God has for His creatures...]

No. Calvinists know where the love of God is to be found and by what means.

[Let's go through Ephesians because the false teachers lie not on my side..]

They are indeed on your side! Let's see why.


We do not read eph 1 from vs 13, backwards....you cannot just cut out all the section of the Covenant of Grace. The Father gave the Son a multitude of Children.He died for them alone.Heb2;
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

It does not say, he took on Him the seed of ADAM,[all mankind] ] Looks like you have everything backwards... No, once again, it is you and the other non cals that suggest dead sinners can respond before being brought to life by The Spirit.​ 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

some of the middle portion of my post was cut out saying it was over 10000caracters

, ​

 

[Robert Pate]

"wondering,
[If those on my side of the fence hate election and predestination],[Iconoclast,

There are no sides of "the fence", There is truth and error

[I could safely say that those on your side of the fence hate the love
God has for His creatures...]

No. Calvinists know where the love of God is to be found and by what means.

[Let's go through Ephesians because the false teachers lie not on my side..]

They are indeed on your side! Let's see why.


We do not read eph 1 from vs 13, backwards....you cannot just cut out all the section of the Covenant of Grace. The Father gave the Son a multitude of Children.He died for them alone.Heb2;
12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

It does not say, he took on Him the seed of ADAM,[all mankind] ] Looks like you have everything backwards... No, once again, it is you and the other non cals that suggest dead sinners can respond before being brought to life by The Spirit.​ 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

some of the middle portion of my post was cut out saying it was over 10000caracters

I don't understand.

If Calvinist believe that God predestinates people to heaven and to hell and everything has already been decided, then why do Calvinist proselyte? I have another question. If everything has already been decided, then why did Jesus tell the apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to everyone? I mean isn't that a waste of time? Why preach the Gospel to people that have already been predestinated to go to hell? Why preach the Gospel to anyone?

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't understand.

If Calvinist believe that God predestinates people to heaven and to hell and everything has already been decided, then why do Calvinist proselyte? I have another question. If everything has already been decided, then why did Jesus tell the apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to everyone? I mean isn't that a waste of time? Why preach the Gospel to people that have already been predestinated to go to hell? Why preach the Gospel to anyone?

God has ordained the means to have the gospel preached,Rom10:8-17, and believed by those elected worldwide.
Jesus said All the Father has given me, shall come to me.
Those elected by God, nevertheless are born sinners,even as others.eph2:1-3.
God saves sinners In Christ.
They also need to repent and believe.

 

[rogerg]

I don't understand.

If Calvinist believe that God predestinates people to heaven and to hell and everything has already been decided, then why do Calvinist proselyte? I have another question. If everything has already been decided, then why did Jesus tell the apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel to everyone? I mean isn't that a waste of time? Why preach the Gospel to people that have already been predestinated to go to hell? Why preach the Gospel to anyone?

Just to be clear, it was not by God but by Satan, Adam and Eve that all were made sinners, nevertheless, He rightly remains the judge of all to render judgment against all - some to eternal life, some to eternal death. That God chose to
save anyone in that no one deserves it, demonstrates His grace and mercy. Notice in v15, that grace, which is solely as a gift of God, cannot therefore be earned, purchased, nor given to oneself regardless of what one may do.

[Rom 5:19 KJV]
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[Rom 5:15 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

 

[Robert Pate]

God has ordained the means to have the gospel preached,Rom10:8-17, and believed by those elected worldwide.
Jesus said All the Father has given me, shall come to me.
Those elected by God, nevertheless are born sinners,even as others.eph2:1-3.
God saves sinners In Christ.
They also need to repent and believe.

According to you no one can repent or believe if they have not been predestinated. So, there is really no sense in preaching the Gospel. Why would God ordain the preaching of the Gospel to those that will never believe? Romans 10:9-11 says, "If you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, WHOSOEVER that believes on him (Jesus) shall be saved". Sounds to me like 100% free will.

 

[Iconoclast]

According to you no one can repent or believe if they have not been predestinated. So, there is really no sense in preaching the Gospel. Why would God ordain the preaching of the Gospel to those that will never believe? Romans 10:9-11 says, "If you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture says, WHOSOEVER that believes on him (Jesus) shall be saved". Sounds to me like 100% free will.

Of course free will does not exist,philosophy like a concept of free will does not save a dead sinner
No man can come unless drawn by the Father Son and Spirit.
Every elect sinner is granted repentance and faith at the very moment they are regenerated.
There will not be anyone in Heaven not elected by God.

 

[GodsGrace]

No. They were chosen before the foundation of the world because of what they did because they didn't exist, so it couldn't be because they answered God's requirements for salvation - not possible.
You provided this verse, yet you don't understand what it means. Look at the "that we should be holy and without blame" part. They were chosen by God to be made HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME, not that they were holy and without blame because they satisfied God's requirements. God's choosing of them is what made them holy and without blame - not by they had done.

[Eph 1:4 KJV] 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Roger, YOU please read the verse....
you take all your calvinist ideas with you to the verse...
let the verse speak to you.

Eph 1:4 He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world...
Before the foundation, God know Adam would fall, so He made a way for man to save his soul, if he wanted to by following the requirements of God, which we know full well what they are...
God chose us to be IN HIM, Jesus is our savior (as you often say).

1. Believe in Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
2. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21, Genesis 4:26

Eph 1:4that we should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE.
God chose us to be Holy and without blame IN HIM

If we IN HIM we will be holy and without blame.

God chose the HOW
NOT THE WHO.

God loves His creation and wishes that all be saved.
He made a way for us to be saved.
When we call on the name of the Lord, we will be saved, and by seen to be holy and without blame.


See? I NEVER said we must be holy and without blame to come before God.
I'm the one that keeps insisting that GOD IS LOVE, MERCY AND JUSTICE.
Please read carefully what I say and don't change it...

God didn't create the universe and fine tune it so humans could live in it just so most of them could go to hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

The best part of your post is when you said, "I don't agree with it" and then you said, "It just makes no sense to me". Religion is very complicated and confusing. Paul said that the Gospel is very simple message, 2 Corinthians 11:3.

Amen. The gospel is very simple and does not require a lot of theology in order to know what God wants for us so we could be saved.

As long as we don't ADD anything to it.
John said this in his writing of Revelation...
He KNEW because persons were already adding to it back then.

 

[Iconoclast]

Roger, YOU please read the verse....
you take all your calvinist ideas with you to the verse...
let the verse speak to you.

Eph 1:4 He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world...
Before the foundation, God know Adam would fall, so He made a way for man to save his soul, if he wanted to by following the requirements of God, which we know full well what they are...
God chose us to be IN HIM, Jesus is our savior (as you often say).

1. Believe in Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
2. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13, Acts 2:21, Genesis 4:26

Eph 1:4that we should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE.
God chose us to be Holy and without blame IN HIM

If we IN HIM we will be holy and without blame.

God chose the HOW
NOT THE WHO.

God loves His creation and wishes that all be saved.
He made a way for us to be saved.
When we call on the name of the Lord, we will be saved, and by seen to be holy and without blame.


See? I NEVER said we must be holy and without blame to come before God.
I'm the one that keeps insisting that GOD IS LOVE, MERCY AND JUSTICE.
Please read carefully what I say and don't change it...

God didn't create the universe and fine tune it so humans could live in it just so most of them could go to hell.

Just flat out rebellion to what the verse says.
Man does not save himself.
God never intended all men to be saved.
Was the flood in the day of Noah and evangelism campaign?
How did the flood suport your idea of God wanting all men saved?
How about when Israel was commanded to kill all the people in the land? Kill them all, men women, children?
Your made up ideas are not found in scripture, rather they are found in twisting sctipture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Amen. The gospel is very simple and does not require a lot of theology in order to know what God wants for us so we could be saved.

As long as we don't ADD anything to it.
John said this in his writing of Revelation...
He KNEW because persons were already adding to it back then.

False again....in first cor.15 the gospel is descibed twice as being "according to the scriptures"
God did not send a postcard, He sent 66 books to show the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are to trust and obey, not rebel and resist

 

[Iconoclast]

Roger, YOU please read the verse....
you take all your calvinist ideas with you to the verse...
let the verse speak to you.

Eph 1:4 He hath chosen us IN HIM before the foundation of the world...
Before the foundation, God


Eph 1:4that we should be HOLY AND WITHOUT BLAME BEFORE HIM IN LOVE.
God chose us to be Holy and without blame IN HIM

If we IN HIM we will be holy and without blame.

God chose the HOW
NOT THE WHO.

No....God chose the who, not a plan.
Whom He did Foreknow...Romans 8:29-30...
It does not say....
What He did foreknow,.or He chose the how

 

[rogerg]

Before the foundation, God know Adam would fall, so He made a way for man to save his soul, if he wanted to by following the requirements of God, which we know full well what they are...
God chose us to be IN HIM, Jesus is our savior (as you often say).

Your interpretation above is a figment of and manufacture of your own imagination, and a reflection of your desire for works for salvation. It says none of what you claim it to say. Reread the first chapter again to include its salutation, only read it much more closely this time and think about what you're reading. Chapter 2 too.
Here, read these verses from it - it is impossible for it to be made any clearer than that. They invalidate everything you've claimed in your post- no requirement whatsoever is placed upon those to be saved - it's all God's will and His work, none of it ours - a full complete gift in all ways to those to whom it is given -that's what I meant/mean by Christ the Saviour, not us. If you are unable to comprehend these verses on you own, let me know and when I return, I will try to explain them to you.

[Eph 2:1-6,8,10 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[GodsGrace]

False again....in first cor.15 the gospel is descibed twice as being "according to the scriptures"
God did not send a postcard, He sent 66 books to show the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are to trust and obey, not rebel and resist

What?
You mean we could add whatever we want to the gospel message???