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God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

rogerg said:
Your interpretation above is a figment of and manufacture of your own imagination, and a reflection of your desire for works for salvation. It says none of what you claim it to say. Reread the first chapter again to include its salutation, only read it much more closely this time and think about what you're reading. Chapter 2 too.
Here, read these verses from it - it is impossible for it to be made any clearer than that. They invalidate everything you've claimed in your post- no requirement whatsoever is placed upon those to be saved - it's all God's will and His work, none of it ours - a full complete gift in all ways to those to whom it is given -that's what I meant/mean by Christ the Saviour, not us. If you are unable to comprehend these verses on you own, let me know and when I return, I will try to explain them to you.

[Eph 2:1-6,8,10 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Click to expand...
When did I ever mention works salvation?
You have a particular way of reading what you believe into scripture, and what I post.
Iconoclast does the same.

Gee, maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe some other member would like to post something.

I'm out of the house.
Later.
 
wondering said:
What?
You mean we could add whatever we want to the gospel message???
Click to expand...

All scripture points to the good news.
You post about man having to do things, that is works
You ask questions but are set to ignore the answers.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Everyone, just a reminder of ToS 1.3:

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.
 
Iconoclast said:
Just flat out rebellion to what the verse says.
Man does not save himself.
God never intended all men to be saved.
Was the flood in the day of Noah and evangelism campaign?
How did the flood suport your idea of God wanting all men saved?
How about when Israel was commanded to kill all the people in the land? Kill them all, men women, children?
Your made up ideas are not found in scripture, rather they are found in twisting sctipture.
Click to expand...
I never said man saves Himself.

YOU say God never intended all men to be saved.
Then you give me the example of the flood.
So what are you saying?
That the bible contradicts itself?

1 Timonty 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Isaiah 45:22
22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

John 5:34
34But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.


So now what do we do?
Have theoretical debates about the flood?
Or believe what the bible says?

The reformed faith causes all these discrepancies in the biblical text.




 
Iconoclast said:
False again....in first cor.15 the gospel is descibed twice as being "according to the scriptures"
God did not send a postcard, He sent 66 books to show the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We are to trust and obey, not rebel and resist
Click to expand...
What are we to trust and obey I ?
If God predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost for all eternity,
WHY would we trust the bible?
What difference does it even make if we read it or not?
God determines every move we make in your paradigm.
So why do we need the 66 books?
God had all these inspired writings written down by man - and for what?

You see, this is why I say that the reformed faith just makes no logical sense to me.
 
Iconoclast said:
No....God chose the who, not a plan.
Whom He did Foreknow...Romans 8:29-30...
It does not say....
What He did foreknow,.or He chose the how :nono :nono
Click to expand...
Please show where in Romans 8:29-30 God chose THE WHO.

God FOREKNEW who would be saved...
Foreknowing is not causal.
Because God knows something, it does not cause it to happen.

Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
29For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstbornn among many brothers and sisters. God chose those He knew in advance to become like His Son...HOW, not WHO.
30And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.

God called those He knew would be saved to Him.
His foreknowledge does not interfere with our free-will.

You don't choose something because it's foreknown,
You foreknow it because that's what you will choose.
 
rogerg said:
Your interpretation above is a figment of and manufacture of your own imagination, and a reflection of your desire for works for salvation.
Click to expand...

You're going to stop saying that I believe in works salvation because you cannot put words into my mouth.
No one that I know on this forum believes that works can save us.
Please stop.


rogerg said:
It says none of what you claim it to say. Reread the first chapter again to include its salutation, only read it much more closely this time and think about what you're reading. Chapter 2 too.
Here, read these verses from it - it is impossible for it to be made any clearer than that. They invalidate everything you've claimed in your post- no requirement whatsoever is placed upon those to be saved
Click to expand...

There are requirements to being saved.
Here they are AGAIN:

1. Believe in the name of Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
2. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13
3. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21
4. Not everyone who calls Lord will be saved, but those who do the will of My Father. Matthew 7:21
5. Through faith we will be saved by grace. Ephesians 2:8


NONE of the above are works.
We are saved by faith....which is not a work. If it is a work it cannot be grace. Romans 11:6

Notice that it does not state anywhere that we should do nothing because God will decide whom to save...
Instead it tells us WHAT TO DO to be saved:
BELIEVE
CALL ON THE LORD
CALL ON THE LORD
DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER
BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

That is Paul and Jesus speaking...not me.

rogerg said:
- it's all God's will and His work, none of it ours - a full complete gift in all ways to those to whom it is given -that's what I meant/mean by Christ the Saviour, not us. If you are unable to comprehend these verses on you own, let me know and when I return, I will try to explain them to you.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've agreed many times that it is a gift.
Grace and faith are gifts from God.
We must just ACCEPT this free gift.
We must say yes to God, just like Mary did.
God predestined Mary ahead of time,,,,
but Mary still had to say YES, because God respects our free will to choose to love Him or not.

rogerg said:
[Eph 2:1-6,8,10 KJV]
1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: ...
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Click to expand...
Now you want to do Ephesians 2.
Instead of that, why don't you tell me what you think of the following:


From John Calvin for Everyone

: One of the gifts of predestination/election is that it allows people to have confidence in their salvation. In Calvin’s view, salvation was never a sure thing. People had to worry about being good enough, believing the right things, or having done enough good works in order that their salvation might become a reality. Calvin’s offer of election/calling/perseverance offered a sense of peace that followers of Christ could take hold of, because their salvation was based in God’s work in Christ, and not in their own human striving or perfection.
Questions:
1. How have you responded to God’s call in Jesus upon your life?
2. Have you ever wondered if God’s love for you is real? How did you reassure yourself that it was?
3. What confidence do you find in knowing that when God takes hold of you God will never let go?
Sounds wonderful
Now read this from
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8

There are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation.

Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts.

Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.


How could anyone under this system ever be secure in their calling?
Did God truly call you or not?
Will your good works and focus still be with you at the time of death?
Maybe we could be one of the above stated and the rug will be pulled from under our feet?
 
wondering said:
I never said man saves Himself.

YOU say God never intended all men to be saved.
Then you give me the example of the flood.
So what are you saying?
That the bible contradicts itself?

1 Timonty 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Isaiah 45:22
22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;

John 5:34
34But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.


So now what do we do?
Have theoretical debates about the flood?
Or believe what the bible says?

The reformed faith causes all these discrepancies in the biblical text.
Click to expand...
When you misunderstand and cannot answer the questions you are asked, it shows a wrong theology cannot make sense of it all.
One question;
How did God destoying multitudes of ungodly persons show how He wants every person saved.
2nd question, why were8 souls saved?....not all, only 8...do not try to flee to other portions of scripture to avoid the question
 
Iconoclast said:
When you misunderstand and cannot answer the questions you are asked, it shows a wrong theology cannot make sense of it all.
One question;
How did God destoying multitudes of ungodly persons show how He wants every person saved.
2nd question, why were8 souls saved?....not all, only 8...do not try to flee to other portions of scripture to avoid the question
Click to expand...
I don't flee I. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet.
The 8 that were saved were righteous and were to populate the earth in a 2nd try.

Do you think God NEEDS a second try?
Do you think your idea does not go against every single verse I posted?
Seems to me it is YOU that is not responding and fleeing....
You have once again caused a conflict, and a big one, in the biblical teachings.

Maybe you could start to think seriously about the OT and what it all means.
Do you think there was a flood?
Is the earth 6,000 years old?
Did history in the OT begin with Abraham, or before?
You believe Adam and Eve are HISTORICAL accounts?
Genesis one is a SCIENCE LESSON? Or does it contain science?

Or, is the OT an inspired book including God's revelation to us, and some history, and some poetry.

Did God inspire the poem of The Song of Solomon?
Is it possible that God could inspire such love,
and then proceed to send billions of persons to hell?
Is He a jokester?
I thought He was using the bible to reveal Himself....is there another reason?
 
Iconoclast said:
I have to drive soon, so i respond in bunches when I am not driving.i drive 600-700 miles at a time
Click to expand...
That's OK, no problem.
But don't tell me I'm fleeing either.
I'm the most unfleeing person you'll meet...or at least way up there on the list.

Are you driving a truck or a car?
You sound like a professional driver.
 
wondering said:
When did I ever mention works salvation?
You have a particular way of reading what you believe into scripture, and what I post.
Iconoclast does the same.
Click to expand...
Whether you realize it or not, pertaining to becoming saved, any part of it not fully received as a gift of God's, would then be our work to achieve - it is an all or nothing proposition - all God, or all us.
 
rogerg said:
Whether you realize it or not, pertaining to becoming saved, any part of it not fully received as a gift of God's, would then be our work to achieve - it is an all or nothing proposition - all God, or all us.
Click to expand...
So is faith a work?
Is believing a work?

If you think so, you're going against what Paul taught.
And I certainly don't think Jesus considered faith a work!
Or belief in Him.
In fact, Jesus demanded this.

John 14:1
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."
Mark 1:15
14Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
John 11:40
40“Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
 
wondering said:
So is faith a work?
Is believing a work?
Click to expand...
Definitely a work in all of its forms!

wondering said:
If you think so, you're going against what Paul taught.
And I certainly don't think Jesus considered faith a work!
Or belief in Him.
In fact, Jesus demanded this.

John 14:1
1“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me."
Mark 1:15
14Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God,
15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
John 11:40
40“Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
Click to expand...

No, that is not what he taught as to from whence faith comes. Those spiritually dead and in sin while they are in that state are completely oblivious to it just as a dead person is completely oblivious

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I'll whittle it down to make it easier to see

1) "but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,"
By Christ's faith(fulness) which is imputed, "we have believed in Christ"
2) "that we might be justified by the faith of Christ"
It was imputed because we were justified by Christ

No. To repent and believe in the Gospel is God's work which can only be given.

[Rom 2:4 KJV]
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

True faith is only as a fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born-again
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


true faith, in all of its forms, comes solely due to Christ's work in us, not ours
 
wondering said:
There are requirements to being saved.
Here they are AGAIN:

1. Believe in the name of Jesus and you will be saved. Acts 16:31
2. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13
3. Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Acts 2:21
4. Not everyone who calls Lord will be saved, but those who do the will of My Father. Matthew 7:21
5. Through faith we will be saved by grace. Ephesians 2:8
Click to expand...

1 - 4, occur as a result of salvation, not cause. The "saved" statement of 16:31, refers to salvation of the last day -
it is the physical realization and culmination of salvation - the receiving of the resurrected, rejuvenated body, and
an escape from God's wrath which will be dispensed at that time. It does not refer to positional (so to speak)
salvation that must occur to the elect during their lifetime, whereby God places them under the law of the Spirit
of life in Christ Jesus.
It is the same with Rom 10:13 and Acts 2:21 as with Acts 16:31 - it is final salvation at the end of time that is in
view - it is only those born again who will call upon the name of the Lord during their lifetimes - but that they do
is from God's doing, not theirs.
Regarding Mat 7:21, only those whom God has made born again will/can do the will of the Father.

5 - Eph 2:9 says that it is as the gift of God, so therefore, the faith question cannot be our faith or it couldn't be as a
gift. Only Christ's faith(fulness) and His obedience could bring salvation. So, it can only be by His faith and
as the verse states, it is a gift.

I'll try to look over your post tomorrow and reply where appropriate.
 
wondering said:
I don't flee I. Perhaps you haven't noticed yet.
The 8 that were saved were righteous and were to populate the earth in a 2nd try.

Do you think God NEEDS a second try?
Do you think your idea does not go against every single verse I posted?
Seems to me it is YOU that is not responding and fleeing....
You have once again caused a conflict, and a big one, in the biblical teachings.

Maybe you could start to think seriously about the OT and what it all means.
Do you think there was a flood?
Is the earth 6,000 years old?
Did history in the OT begin with Abraham, or before?
You believe Adam and Eve are HISTORICAL accounts?
Genesis one is a SCIENCE LESSON? Or does it contain science?

Or, is the OT an inspired book including God's revelation to us, and some history, and some poetry.

Did God inspire the poem of The Song of Solomon?
Is it possible that God could inspire such love,
and then proceed to send billions of persons to hell?
Is He a jokester?
I thought He was using the bible to reveal Himself....is there another reason?
Click to expand...
You did not Answer my 2 questions.
 
wondering said:
That's OK, no problem.
But don't tell me I'm fleeing either.
I'm the most unfleeing person you'll meet...or at least way up there on the list.

Are you driving a truck or a car?
You sound like a professional driver.
Click to expand...
You did not answer the main question. Lets simplfy it.
How did The worldwide flood show that God wanted to save everyone of the unsaved?
Explain that
 
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