God's Great Free Gift of Salvation for Everyone

[Iconoclast]

Thanks Free
I believe all calvinist teachings are extreme.
I go by The Institutes of John Calvin and somewhat by the Westminster Confession of Faith which is the same idea but watered down a bit to make it more acceptable.

God predetermines everything and we have no free will as such. The reason there's the need for God to predetermined everything is because man is born so depraved that he is unable to respond to God. This is the reformed belief.

I find it impossible to discuss in a manner as to produce any understanding of each others view.
So, eventually, I give up.

I am coming to the belief that they are truly teaching a different gospel. I'd like to start a thread but fear it might be problematic.

So
..CHS....preached another gospel

Agreed.
None of the early church theologians believed anything of what calvinism teaches.
The disturbing part is that it seems that even the reformed don't know what calvinism is.
The wording is just so that a newcomer to the idea would hardly notice the difference.
This is very dishonest.

The apostles taught it and believed it. APOSTASY STARTED EARLY,
.
Moses went up to get the 10 commandments,the people were already breaking them before he came down the mountain.

 

[Robert Pate]

I can agree with that, but I guess my question wasn't exactly clear so my question is how does God give us faith.

I think that you know the answer to your question.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17.

Paul wrote, "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

They heard the Gospel, but they did not believe the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is only given to those that believe the Gospel.

 

[electedbyHim]

And yet not one member here can debunk the Doctrines of Grace as a false teaching or heresy.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Robert Pate]

And yet not one member here can debunk the Doctrines of Grace as a false teaching or heresy.

Grace and peace to you.

Calvinism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. I can do it with just one scripture, John 3:16.

 

[jaybo]

Calvinism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. I can do it with just one scripture, John 3:16.

I know nothing about Calvinism, so I looked it up online. Part of what I read is...

Calvin believed that salvation is only possible through the grace of God. Even before creation, God chose some people to be saved. This is the bone most people choke on: predestination. Curiously, it isn't particularly a Calvinist idea. Augustine taught it centuries earlier, and Luther believed it, as did most of the other Reformers. Yet Calvin stated it so forcefully that the teaching is forever identified with him. Calvin said it was clearly taught in the Bible.

For Calvin, God was -- above all else -- sovereign. Like all the Reformers, he hated the way Catholicism had degenerated into a religion of salvation-by-works. So Calvin's constantly repeated theme was this: You cannot manipulate God, nor put Him in your debt. If you are saved, it is His doing, not your own.

... I don't find any problem with this, so what is your disagreement?

 

[for_his_glory]

I think that you know the answer to your question.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17.

Paul wrote, "For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" Hebrews 4:2.

They heard the Gospel, but they did not believe the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is only given to those that believe the Gospel.

Yes, I know the answer, but was only asking electedbyhim to give me his answer.

 

[for_his_glory]

And yet not one member here can debunk the Doctrines of Grace as a false teaching or heresy.

Grace and peace to you.

Whose doctrine of grace are you speaking about and what exactly does this doctrine say?

 

[electedbyHim]

Whose doctrine of grace are you speaking about and what exactly does this doctrine say?

Please look it up.

 

[electedbyHim]

Yes, I know the answer, but was only asking electedbyhim to give me his answer.

If you already knew, why even ask?

 

[Iconoclast]

And yet not one member here can debunk the Doctrines of Grace as a false teaching or heresy.

Grace and peace to you.

They like to post as if they have really looked at it.
When cals post it is a
Sharp contrast and a blessing

 

[GodsGrace]

I know nothing about Calvinism, so I looked it up online. Part of what I read is...

Calvin believed that salvation is only possible through the grace of God. Even before creation, God chose some people to be saved. This is the bone most people choke on: predestination. Curiously, it isn't particularly a Calvinist idea. Augustine taught it centuries earlier, and Luther believed it, as did most of the other Reformers. Yet Calvin stated it so forcefully that the teaching is forever identified with him. Calvin said it was clearly taught in the Bible.

For Calvin, God was -- above all else -- sovereign. Like all the Reformers, he hated the way Catholicism had degenerated into a religion of salvation-by-works. So Calvin's constantly repeated theme was this: You cannot manipulate God, nor put Him in your debt. If you are saved, it is His doing, not your own.

... I don't find any problem with this, so what is your disagreement?

Hi Jaybo,
I came to know about Calvinism about 10 years ago.
I've been reading about it and listening to those preachers on YouTube for years now. About 7 or 8 at least.
I even read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and I have a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith which is like the CCC for Catholics and is used by some reformed churches - don't know for sure which ones. Some use the LCF. They basically say what Calvin taught, but it's put in a softer way.

So, it seems to me that you didn't quite understand what Calvinism is.
In the 1930's (if I remember the date right) Someone came up with an acronym for it.
T.U.L.I.P. If you learn what each letter stands for, you'll understand calvinism much better.
You know me, I'm very accepting of other person's beliefs, but this is one set of beliefs that go against everything we know as Christians.

Here's what each letter stands for...in my own words. There's plenty on the net if you want to know more.

T: TOTAL DEPRAVITY....
Man is born so depraved that it goes beyond being born with the sin nature.
It means that man is so depraved in every way that he cannot even seek God...it's God that has to pull him up, and God does this ONLY for those He wishes to save.

U: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION....
God knew from before the foundation of the world WHO He wanted to save and who would be forever lost.
God elected those persons BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL THAT WE COULD KNOW...except for His own will and those that end up lost are so for His glory. This is sick.
So God picked the saved and He picked the lost. It's called double predestination.

L: LIMITED ATONEMENT....
Jesus' sacrifice was only for the elect (those God chose to be saved). It was not for the whole world as the NT teaches.
This is such an unacceptable doctrine that even some calvinist theologians cannot accept it. These are called 4 point calvinists because they only agree with the other 4 letters or points.

I: IRRISITABLE GRACE....
God's grace cannot be resisted. If He decides to save you, you cannot reject His grace.
This is due to the fact that calvinists believe we do not have free will. Try to ask one what free will is,,,
they could go on for pages, but it's too much to get into here.

P: PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS....
If God picks a person to be saved, He will see to it that the person is saved and will persevere until the end.
Sounds good, right? Except that He pulls the rug from under some persons, I could post the source for you, thus making calvinists not be really sure of their salvation until the end of their life. Oh. And they have to continue to do good works because this is a sign that they are one of the lucky ones - if they don't enjoy doing good works, it's a sign that they may not really be chosen by God.

What do you think now?

 

[for_his_glory]

to be honest I never really thought about how He gives us that faith.

And thus the question I asked you and now have given me your answer. Thank you.

Then how can you understand faith?

Faith is our part to believe and have complete trust or confidence in someone (Jesus) or something. It comes by having strong belief in the doctrines of Christ as faith comes by hearing the word of God, Romans 10:17 example Acts 2:14-41.

 

[for_his_glory]

Please look it up.

Is it that hard to tell me whose doctrine you are speaking about. Never mind will move on. This thread seems to have gone to the Calvinist view in whom some of them like to refute scripture as they believe a mans doctrine.

You have a good day.

 

[electedbyHim]

Is it that hard to tell me whose doctrine you are speaking about. Never mind will move on. This thread seems to have gone to the Calvinist view in whom some of them like to refute scripture as they believe a mans doctrine.

You have a good day.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[jaybo]

Hi Jaybo,
I came to know about Calvinism about 10 years ago.
I've been reading about it and listening to those preachers on YouTube for years now. About 7 or 8 at least.
I even read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and I have a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith which is like the CCC for Catholics and is used by some reformed churches - don't know for sure which ones. Some use the LCF. They basically say what Calvin taught, but it's put in a softer way.

So, it seems to me that you didn't quite understand what Calvinism is.
In the 1930's (if I remember the date right) Someone came up with an acronym for it.
T.U.L.I.P. If you learn what each letter stands for, you'll understand calvinism much better.
You know me, I'm very accepting of other person's beliefs, but this is one set of beliefs that go against everything we know as Christians.

Here's what each letter stands for...in my own words. There's plenty on the net if you want to know more.

T: TOTAL DEPRAVITY....
Man is born so depraved that it goes beyond being born with the sin nature.
It means that man is so depraved in every way that he cannot even seek God...it's God that has to pull him up, and God does this ONLY for those He wishes to save.

U: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION....
God knew from before the foundation of the world WHO He wanted to save and who would be forever lost.
God elected those persons BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL THAT WE COULD KNOW...except for His own will and those that end up lost are so for His glory. This is sick.
So God picked the saved and He picked the lost. It's called double predestination.

L: LIMITED ATONEMENT....
Jesus' sacrifice was only for the elect (those God chose to be saved). It was not for the whole world as the NT teaches.
This is such an unacceptable doctrine that even some calvinist theologians cannot accept it. These are called 4 point calvinists because they only agree with the other 4 letters or points.

I: IRRISITABLE GRACE....
God's grace cannot be resisted. If He decides to save you, you cannot reject His grace.
This is due to the fact that calvinists believe we do not have free will. Try to ask one what free will is,,,
they could go on for pages, but it's too much to get into here.

P: PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS....
If God picks a person to be saved, He will see to it that the person is saved and will persevere until the end.
Sounds good, right? Except that He pulls the rug from under some persons, I could post the source for you, thus making calvinists not be really sure of their salvation until the end of their life. Oh. And they have to continue to do good works because this is a sign that they are one of the lucky ones - if they don't enjoy doing good works, it's a sign that they may not really be chosen by God.

What do you think now?

This is in disagreement with what I read online. I'm not saying that it's wrong but it seems to be written by a detractor.
I don't really subscribe to any particular teaching or denomination. I read the Bible as my main source of truth since every denomination (or "church") claims that their doctrine is the only correct one and that everything that disagrees with it is false. It unfortunately reminds me of Paul's writing in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, "What I mean is that each of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Has Christ been divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" or today's version: I'm a Catholic, I'm an Orthodox, I'm a Presbyterian, I'm a Lutheran, I'm a Pentecostal ... I'm a Calvinist.

Unfortunately, this kind of division also occurs in online forums. I am as guilty as anyone else of criticizing the doctrines of my brothers and sisters in Christ. The whole thing makes me very sad! Where is the peace and joy in Christ?

 

[Robert Pate]

Hi Jaybo,
I came to know about Calvinism about 10 years ago.
I've been reading about it and listening to those preachers on YouTube for years now. About 7 or 8 at least.
I even read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and I have a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith which is like the CCC for Catholics and is used by some reformed churches - don't know for sure which ones. Some use the LCF. They basically say what Calvin taught, but it's put in a softer way.

So, it seems to me that you didn't quite understand what Calvinism is.
In the 1930's (if I remember the date right) Someone came up with an acronym for it.
T.U.L.I.P. If you learn what each letter stands for, you'll understand calvinism much better.
You know me, I'm very accepting of other person's beliefs, but this is one set of beliefs that go against everything we know as Christians.

Here's what each letter stands for...in my own words. There's plenty on the net if you want to know more.

T: TOTAL DEPRAVITY....
Man is born so depraved that it goes beyond being born with the sin nature.
It means that man is so depraved in every way that he cannot even seek God...it's God that has to pull him up, and God does this ONLY for those He wishes to save.

U: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION....
God knew from before the foundation of the world WHO He wanted to save and who would be forever lost.
God elected those persons BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL THAT WE COULD KNOW...except for His own will and those that end up lost are so for His glory. This is sick.
So God picked the saved and He picked the lost. It's called double predestination.

L: LIMITED ATONEMENT....
Jesus' sacrifice was only for the elect (those God chose to be saved). It was not for the whole world as the NT teaches.
This is such an unacceptable doctrine that even some calvinist theologians cannot accept it. These are called 4 point calvinists because they only agree with the other 4 letters or points.

I: IRRISITABLE GRACE....
God's grace cannot be resisted. If He decides to save you, you cannot reject His grace.
This is due to the fact that calvinists believe we do not have free will. Try to ask one what free will is,,,
they could go on for pages, but it's too much to get into here.

P: PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS....
If God picks a person to be saved, He will see to it that the person is saved and will persevere until the end.
Sounds good, right? Except that He pulls the rug from under some persons, I could post the source for you, thus making calvinists not be really sure of their salvation until the end of their life. Oh. And they have to continue to do good works because this is a sign that they are one of the lucky ones - if they don't enjoy doing good works, it's a sign that they may not really be chosen by God.

What do you think now?

I think that Calvinism is 100% false.

 

[electedbyHim]

Calvinism is one of the easiest doctrines to refute. I can do it with just one scripture, John 3:16.

Wow. You did not refute anything.

One Scripture out of 66 books of the Bible proves nothing.

The WHO EVER that believes are Gods elect.

Many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[electedbyHim]

You guys, and girls are great.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Iconoclast]

You guys, and girls are great.

Grace and peace to you.

Good for a laugh at least.

 

[electedbyHim]

Hi Jaybo,
I came to know about Calvinism about 10 years ago.
I've been reading about it and listening to those preachers on YouTube for years now. About 7 or 8 at least.
I even read John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and I have a copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith which is like the CCC for Catholics and is used by some reformed churches - don't know for sure which ones. Some use the LCF. They basically say what Calvin taught, but it's put in a softer way.

So, it seems to me that you didn't quite understand what Calvinism is.
In the 1930's (if I remember the date right) Someone came up with an acronym for it.
T.U.L.I.P. If you learn what each letter stands for, you'll understand calvinism much better.
You know me, I'm very accepting of other person's beliefs, but this is one set of beliefs that go against everything we know as Christians.

Here's what each letter stands for...in my own words. There's plenty on the net if you want to know more.

T: TOTAL DEPRAVITY....
Man is born so depraved that it goes beyond being born with the sin nature.
It means that man is so depraved in every way that he cannot even seek God...it's God that has to pull him up, and God does this ONLY for those He wishes to save.

U: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION....
God knew from before the foundation of the world WHO He wanted to save and who would be forever lost.
God elected those persons BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL THAT WE COULD KNOW...except for His own will and those that end up lost are so for His glory. This is sick.
So God picked the saved and He picked the lost. It's called double predestination.

L: LIMITED ATONEMENT....
Jesus' sacrifice was only for the elect (those God chose to be saved). It was not for the whole world as the NT teaches.
This is such an unacceptable doctrine that even some calvinist theologians cannot accept it. These are called 4 point calvinists because they only agree with the other 4 letters or points.

I: IRRISITABLE GRACE....
God's grace cannot be resisted. If He decides to save you, you cannot reject His grace.
This is due to the fact that calvinists believe we do not have free will. Try to ask one what free will is,,,
they could go on for pages, but it's too much to get into here.

P: PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS....
If God picks a person to be saved, He will see to it that the person is saved and will persevere until the end.
Sounds good, right? Except that He pulls the rug from under some persons, I could post the source for you, thus making calvinists not be really sure of their salvation until the end of their life. Oh. And they have to continue to do good works because this is a sign that they are one of the lucky ones - if they don't enjoy doing good works, it's a sign that they may not really be chosen by God.

What do you think now?

A lot of flaws in what you think the Doctrines of Grace are.

No need to correct you on the rest of your opinions.

I will just leave this one.

Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell. Is this concept biblical? Let us look at the question from the book of Romans, which has two predominant themes throughout. The first theme is the righteousness of God. It is the gospel message itself that reveals God’s righteousness (Romans 1:16-17). It is the truth contained within the gospel message that by faith declares a man righteous before God (Romans 4-5). It is the central figure of the gospel message—Jesus Christ—that enables a man to be righteous (Romans 6-7). It is the gospel message that shows man the way to live in a righteous manner (Romans 12).

Another theme found in the book of Romans is that of wrath. God’s wrath has been revealed—and is being revealed—against all sinful actions (Romans 1:18). Mankind knows about God, but rejects God in their thinking and in their actions (Romans 1:21-22). The wrath of God, therefore, is the giving over of man to live his life as he pleases (Romans 1:24, 26, 28), which apart from God leads to destruction (Romans 1:28-32). Man rejects the God of the universe, and God, in turn, forsakes man. Only a personal intervention from God can alter the destructive path on which man finds himself while he hardens himself in sin.

Now we read Romans 9:22, and it says, "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?" Many people think this verse teaches that God has made certain vessels for His wrath. But this is not the point of the verse. Reading above, mankind has already experienced God’s wrath. Mankind has fitted himself for destruction. It is God who endures these vessels—vessels who have prepared themselves for destruction because they would not leave their sin and turn to God.

Look at the next verse: Romans 9:23, "And he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory." Notice that God elects certain people beforehand for His glory. In other words, before the foundation of the world God chose certain people to be His children in order that He would be glorified (see Ephesians 1:4). It does not say that God chose people to damnation or predestined people to wrath. The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestinates some to hell, others to heaven. Those who are under God’s wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.