Bible Study Help! What does this mean....

[Bob Carabbio]

Whatever you say Bob..

Show me IN THE BIBLE where a CURSE was pronounced on Adam or Eve. Consequences of their actions, sure!! CURSE?? never.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

BTW
Did you see my post to you, no. 92?

Yup - ignored it - just more "work around theology".

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup - ignored it - just more "work around theology".

Well...that takes care of that.
Keep ignoring Theology....

 

[GodsGrace]

Show me IN THE BIBLE where a CURSE was pronounced on Adam or Eve. Consequences of their actions, sure!! CURSE?? never.

Genesis 3.
A person either sees it or they don't ...
For whatever reason.

 

[WIP]

Of course Adam wasn't an idiot. He was an innocent. Who had no knowledge of good nor evil. Ergo, he could not make an informed choice of obey God, do good, or disobey God, consent to the leading of evil, because Adam did not know consequence. Which arrives with understanding of the differences between the good or the bad.

Once Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they became like God, knowing hood and evil. Which is why God expelled them from the garden. Do they would not eat of the fruit of the tree of life and be immortal in the flesh.

Then, generations after, God sent himself to atone for the sinful state he placed upon the elect of the human race, so we would be immortal once our fledh was dead.

This brought up a question for me. Does one have to know the difference between good and evil before obedience can take effect? I'm not so sure the answer is yes.

Think of a toddler. He/she does something that is not acceptable because he/she does not know right from wrong. The parents then step in and instructs the child not to do what they did. A rule has been set in place and the child knows the rule. This is evident when said child does it again and then behaves with a sense of guilt. Now the child knows it is not acceptable but is not aware that the reason it is not acceptable is because it is wrong (evil). The child still does not know good behavior from bad behavior but can slowly learn what is or is not acceptable even though said child doesn't know why.

Another example. Our dogs and our horses know what is and is not acceptable yet they do not know the difference between good and evil. This is evident whenever one of our dogs gets ahold of a squirrel, bird, muskrat, or whatever that happens to wander within close proximity for he will kill it. He doesn't kill it as a matter of survival for we provide all he needs. He just kills it as if it is just another day on the farm. You and I know that killing something just to kill it is evil but not the dog.

Adam and Eve were aware that partaking from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not acceptable for God told them in no uncertain terms even though they did not know the difference between good and evil. God still expected/demanded that they obey His direction.

 

[WIP]

Genesis 3.
A person either sees it or they don't ...
For whatever reason.

I think a definition of the word "curse" might help.

From Google's dictionary...

• a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.

From Merriam-Webster....

• a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one
• evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution

And the definition of retribution is

• punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act

I think God's divine purpose was to invoke a punishment for their wrong doing, was it not?

 

[GodsGrace]

I think a definition of the word "curse" might help.

From Google's dictionary...

• a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.

From Merriam-Webster....

• a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one
• evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution

And the definition of retribution is

• punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act

I think God's divine purpose was to invoke a punishment for their wrong doing, was it not?

No WIP

It can be considered a punishment as an effect,
But the reason it was a curse is because Adam had a bilateral covenant with God....the Edenic Covenant. Bilateral means that both parties made promises to keep the covenant. There would be blessings when kept, and curses if it was not kept. This is a conditional covenant.
The condition here was the obedience of Adam.
This is why it was Adam that is blamed for the fall and not Eve, because HE made the covenant (agreement, only more so because God is involved) with God, not Eve.

I had posted a good link for the other member....
Will look for it.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think a definition of the word "curse" might help.

From Google's dictionary...

• a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.

From Merriam-Webster....

• a prayer or invocation for harm or injury to come upon one
• evil or misfortune that comes as if in response to imprecation or as retribution

And the definition of retribution is

• punishment inflicted on someone as vengeance for a wrong or criminal act

I think God's divine purpose was to invoke a punishment for their wrong doing, was it not?

Here's the link:

source: https://www.compellingtruth.org/Edenic-covenant.html

See my post no. 92 if there's a problem....the original link is there.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Thanks Walter and Debbie,,,
The above is very good - it's just that it's not exactly what we're discussing.
Care to read the O.P. again?
Simple question:
Are we IMPUTED with the sin of Adam or do we just suffer the consequences of it?
Are we held personally responsible for HIS sin of disobedience?

Wondering, I'm just thinking, and I know that this issue is simple, after you have read what I have posted to your questions, I thought you would have understood better, but as I can see, or have you? because we all have sinned coming short, but to me, must we continue with that sinful nature, I say no Mam/Sir, God forbid, especially when we are tempted. Would you? I would not.

But I was looking at the responses from others, and I find that your answers to their responses are interesting, So then! I would say to your questions is,

When lust is conceived it brings forth sin, and when sin is finished it brings forth death. Yes or No? thank you

Love, Walter

 

[GodsGrace]

Wondering, I'm just thinking, and I know that this issue is simple, after you have read what I have posted to your questions, I thought you would have understood better, but as I can see, or have you? because we all have sinned coming short, but to me, must we continue with that sinful nature, I say no Mam/Sir, God forbid, especially when we are tempted. Would you? I would not.

But I was looking at the responses from others, and I find that your answers to their responses are interesting, So then! I would say to your questions is,

When lust is conceived it brings forth sin, and when sin is finished it brings forth death. Yes or No? thank you

Love, Walter

Of course!
That's what the NT tells us via James.

But the original question was:
Are we, humanity, imputed with Adam's sin, or do we just suffer from its consequences?

Are we personally responsible for his disobedience?

Roman's 5:12-14

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Genesis 3.
A person either sees it or they don't ...
For whatever reason.

Can't see what's not there -

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Of course!
That's what the NT tells us via James.

But the original question was:
Are we, humanity, imputed with Adam's sin, or do we just suffer from its consequences?

Are we personally responsible for his disobedience?

Roman's 5:12-14

Hi Wondering, as you know, the wages of sin is death, and that we are to face consequences, this is why I think true repentance is necessary, but if we sin willfully after then we suffer.

We are held responsible for any disobedience.

Love, Walter

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

This brought up a question for me. Does one have to know the difference between good and evil before obedience can take effect? I'm not so sure the answer is yes.

Think of a toddler. He/she does something that is not acceptable because he/she does not know right from wrong. The parents then step in and instructs the child not to do what they did. A rule has been set in place and the child knows the rule. This is evident when said child does it again and then behaves with a sense of guilt. Now the child knows it is not acceptable but is not aware that the reason it is not acceptable is because it is wrong (evil). The child still does not know good behavior from bad behavior but can slowly learn what is or is not acceptable even though said child doesn't know why.

Another example. Our dogs and our horses know what is and is not acceptable yet they do not know the difference between good and evil. This is evident whenever one of our dogs gets ahold of a squirrel, bird, muskrat, or whatever that happens to wander within close proximity for he will kill it. He doesn't kill it as a matter of survival for we provide all he needs. He just kills it as if it is just another day on the farm. You and I know that killing something just to kill it is evil but not the dog.

Adam and Eve were aware that partaking from the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not acceptable for God told them in no uncertain terms even though they did not know the difference between good and evil. God still expected/demanded that they obey His direction.

If we go with the toddler analogy one could put it this way on a parallel to the Genesis scriptures.
The parent instructs a toddler , who has no comprehension of what it means to obey or disobey instruction, not to touch the leg of a table that is positioned in the middle of the room.
A visiting uncle knows of this prohibition set upon the toddler. None the less this highly intelligent older uncle enters the room where the table is. And then as the toddler is making their unsteady gait into that room, the uncle sits beside that forbidden table and begins patting one of its legs. While making sounds to entice the child in his direction.
The child arrives at the table. And the uncle starts to talk to the child with the intention of getting the baby to touch the leg of the table.

The child does this. And a short time later the child's father throws the toddler out of the house. And to insure the toddler can never return sets guards at the door.

Years and years later that father transforms himself into a younger man, commits suicide by getting the local authorities to execute him on a capital offense charge, while telling that now full grown older toddler that this is all necessary so that the toddlers father may forgive the toddler disobeying the father's command against touching that table leg. And also so that the toddler now fully grown may have the opportunity to believe the father's execution is proof the father loves him and wants reconciliation for that first offense of disobedience.

Which only occured because after giving the toddler that instruction about the table, the father then told his brother about the toddlers instruction. And then let his brother into the house the father shared with the toddler.

 

[WIP]

If we go with the toddler analogy one could put it this way on a parallel to the Genesis scriptures.
The parent instructs a toddler , who has no comprehension of what it means to obey or disobey instruction, not to touch the leg of a table that is positioned in the middle of the room.
A visiting uncle knows of this prohibition set upon the toddler. None the less this highly intelligent older uncle enters the room where the table is. And then as the toddler is making their unsteady gait into that room, the uncle sits beside that forbidden table and begins patting one of its legs. While making sounds to entice the child in his direction.
The child arrives at the table. And the uncle starts to talk to the child with the intention of getting the baby to touch the leg of the table.

The child does this. And a short time later the child's father throws the toddler out of the house. And to insure the toddler can never return sets guards at the door.

Years and years later that father transforms himself into a younger man, commits suicide by getting the local authorities to execute him on a capital offense charge, while telling that now full grown older toddler that this is all necessary so that the toddlers father may forgive the toddler disobeying the father's command against touching that table leg. And also so that the toddler now fully grown may have the opportunity to believe the father's execution is proof the father loves him and wants reconciliation for that first offense of disobedience.

Which only occured because after giving the toddler that instruction about the table, the father then told his brother about the toddlers instruction. And then let his brother into the house the father shared with the toddler.

I liked this because it is a very good point, however, it seems to present a degrading representation of God, lowering God to human standards, and placing Him in our neatly packaged box.

What you've described is the situation from a human perspective. I think what is important for us to remember is that God, our Creator, is the potter while we are only the clay. What God says is non-negotiable and He demands our perfect obedience regardless of others' influences. Fortunately for us, He also loves us enough that He provided for us a way of escape through faith in Jesus Christ.

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV

 

[Chocolate Roadrunner]

I liked this because it is a very good point, however, it seems to present a degrading representation of God, lowering God to human standards, and placing Him in our neatly packaged box.

What you've described is the situation from a human perspective. I think what is important for us to remember is that God, our Creator, is the potter while we are only the clay. What God says is non-negotiable and He demands our perfect obedience regardless of others' influences. Fortunately for us, He also loves us enough that He provided for us a way of escape through faith in Jesus Christ.

Christ is/ was God.
God made salvation necessary when he didn't show grace and forgiveness for the innocent transgression, due to their God given state of ignorance, in Eden.


How did Satan sin in heaven? When heaven is paradise.

Why did God cast him and the angels who joined Satan's war on God in heaven down to earth where God made Satan lord? That he be enabled to roam about like a hungry lion seeking our souls to devour.

When the elect of God are already chosen for salvation by God before the foundation of the world.
That means our fall was predestined.

Remember, God allowed his faithful servant Job to lose everything to Satan's acts against him. With God's permission so that he could win a bet with Satan regarding the enduring faith of Job.

The potter and clay analogy?
The Potter makes some jars for the purpose of destruction. And other jars for the purpose of preserving.

No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
1 Corinthians 10:13 NKJV

Of course. Isaiah 45:7.
All things are of and from God. Who predetermined all things according to his will and purpose due to his zeal for his own glory.

See: Isaiah 43, Isaiah 48:9-11, Isaiah 49, Ephesians 1:11

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

Genesis 3.
A person either sees it or they don't ...
For whatever reason.

The ground was cursed from Adam eating from the tree.

Only the ground and the serpant were cursed.

As man was made from the ground and the ground was cursed and from dust to dust return i can see where someone might think Adam was cursed. Yet it does specifically say only the ground and serpant were cursed. The ground was cursed but that was after Adam was already made from the ground.

 

[GodsGrace]

The ground was cursed from Adam eating from the tree.

Only the ground and the serpant were cursed.

As man was made from the ground and the ground was cursed and from dust to dust return i can see where someone might think Adam was cursed. Yet it does specifically say only the ground and serpant were cursed. The ground was cursed but that was after Adam was already made from the ground.

Was the woman cursed at all?

And do you feel the Edenic Covenant is incorrect?

 

[WIP]

The ground was cursed from Adam eating from the tree.

Only the ground and the serpant were cursed.

As man was made from the ground and the ground was cursed and from dust to dust return i can see where someone might think Adam was cursed. Yet it does specifically say only the ground and serpant were cursed. The ground was cursed but that was after Adam was already made from the ground.

You don't think having to endure pain in child bearing to be a curse? This was not how it was originally intended but God made the change in response to Eve partaking from the tree.

You don't think having to toil by the sweat of our face to obtain food to be a curse? Prior to Adam's disobedience life was simple and everything needed was provided without toiling.

 

[GodsGrace]

You don't think having to endure pain in child bearing to be a curse? This was not how it was originally intended but God made the change in response to Eve partaking from the tree.

You don't think having to toil by the sweat of our face to obtain food to be a curse? Prior to Adam's disobedience life was simple and everything needed was provided without toiling.

 

[King Dan of Great the 1st]

You don't think having to endure pain in child bearing to be a curse? This was not how it was originally intended but God made the change in response to Eve partaking from the tree.

You don't think having to toil by the sweat of our face to obtain food to be a curse? Prior to Adam's disobedience life was simple and everything needed was provided without toiling.

I can only go on what the text says and its says the ground and serpant were cursed. It does not specifically say Adam and Eve. Life was simple as you said but with a cursed serpant and ground its not.