Is baptismal regeneration biblical?

[OzSpen]

The Spirit knows the Truth of the text. The Spirit does not need us to first know the meaning of the scripture before we accept the understanding. You mention 'seeking the Spirits help'. The Spirit of Truth is not conditional in revealing the Truth. It is waiting for us to get out of the way (to be unconditional/humble) so it can present the Truth to us unconditionally. It is us who has to stop being conditional, such as following a path of exegesis, and then seeking the Spirit's help.

Personally, theology has a lot to answer for the misunderstandings of scripture.

Hermit,

That's not what Scripture states. It says: 'God has breathed life into all Scripture. It is useful for teaching us what is true. It is useful for correcting our mistakes. It is useful for making our lives whole again. It is useful for training us to do what is right' (2 Tim 3:16 NIRV).

You stated:

Personally, theology has a lot to answer for the misunderstandings of scripture.

Does that mean your own theology is superior to that of other theologians? What does theology have to answer? Theology is a discipline of theos (God) + logos (word or message), i.e. a discipline that deals with the message of God.

With which theologians do you disagree?

However, the OP has to do with baptismal regeneration. Do you believe Scripture teaches that one has to be baptised to be saved?

Oz

P.S. How is Ballina weather? I live in a northern suburb of Brisbane and there is a little of Spring temps in the air. I'm planning on going into a 55+ village that has 2 villages, one in Ballina. It's called Riverbend and the one I plan to enter is at Burpengary Qld.

 

[FreeGrace]

What are your reasons for support or rejection of the need to be baptised to be saved? Remember, Mark 16:16 (ESV) states: 'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned'.

Blessings in Christ,
Oz

Hi Oz.

My views on baptism are formed from 2 passages. The first one is 1 Cor 1:
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

What I hear Paul saying is that, as an evangelist, his sole purpose was to preach the gospel, which is the only way one can be saved; to hear and believe it. He clearly minimized water baptism in v.14-16. If salvation were dependent upon water baptism along with faith in Christ, it seems he would have emphasized, not de-emphasized, water baptism. And made some direct statements as to the necessity of being water baptized for salvation. Yet, he didn't.

The second one is in 1 Pet 3:
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

In v.20, Peter speaks of Noah being "saved through water". It should be obvious that the water didn't save Noah, his family, or any animals. They were, in fact, saved FROM the water. Or they would have drowned IN the water.

Then, he states clearly in v.21 that "this water", being a reference to literal water (as in the flood of Noah's time), is a symbol of the baptism that saves us. So, water baptism is a symbol of the real (dry) baptism that saves. So, what is this real baptism? It can only be the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Peter further clarifies his point by adding "not the removal of dirt from the body". This is clearly a reference to literal water. And he says "NOT the removal of dirt". iow, it's NOT water baptism that saves us. That's just a symbol. It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit that saves.

John the baptizer said this about the Savior:
Matt 3:11- "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire

John used literal water for baptism. Jesus used the Holy Spirit, the source of our regeneration/salvation.

 

[chessman]

In THAT passage, Jesus IS talking about being born again (regenerated) in water AND in the Spirit.

Is Jim advocating a biblical position?

Of course not in the sense Jim means it. It's easily proven to be a non-Biblical claim that we are born again (regenerated) in water as a requirement to salvation (entering God's kingdom). Not to mention being an irrational claim to make that God would use a created thing (H2O) to birth again something which has already been born of water. We are water (65% of us on average)! Cellular life is dependent on water (always) from conception to death. Our bodies (a fertilized egg even) have been 'living' via H2O since it's conception in the womb. There's a reason we require water for life. No water = no cellular life. (As two weeks in Woomera AUS will prove out

Both of those creatures in that avatar to the left were 'born in water' and have live long lives via H2O. However, only one of them has been re-born (regenerated) in the Spirit (capital S), and thus has Eternal Life. The other one, has lost it's water life, but it sure tasted good.

But Biblically speaking, here's Jesus' Truth statement (one Truth claim being expressed three different ways in increasing clarity) made to a ruler of the Jews who just didn't quite 'get it' the first time He said it):

John 3:3a (DLNT) ...“Truly, truly, I say to you— unless one is born again [or from-above], he is not able to see the kingdom of God”.
​

[Huh???, what are you talking about Rabbi from God??? Born again, born from above???] So He clarifies His first Truth statement (A) via further detail (B) and even further detail (C) . But they make the same point, just in different ways of expression.

John 3:5-6 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the kingdom of God.​

Think about it. These two Truth statements must equal each other (and they do). (If A = B then B = A)
Nicodemus doesn't understand Jesus' first statement (A), so Jesus clarifies it with B and clarifies it even more in His third statement (C):
The underlined portions are equal to each other (else Jesus isn't being logical).

born again = born of water and the spirit

You cannot be born again (have a second birth), without having a first birth as Jesus clarifies in His next statement (2 = 1 + 1)

6 The thing having been born of the flesh is flesh, and the thing having been born of the Spirit is spirit.
​

The underlined portions are equal to each other. A = B = C. Poof:

born again = born of water and the Spirit = born of the flesh and born of the Spirit = 1st birth + 2nd Birth (from above)

 

[JLB]

The second one is in 1 Pet 3:
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Actually Peter refers to water baptism, not "dry" baptism, in his connection to the water during Noah's day.

This water symbolizes baptism, [water baptism], that now saves you also.

This water was a symbol of water baptism, just as going down into the sea, was a symbol of water baptism, which is one of the three baptisms that are mentioned.

Baptized into Christ
Baptized in water
Baptized with the Holy Spirit

These correspond to the three baptisms today, as typified in the old testament.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses - Into Christ
• in the cloud - The Holy Spirit
• and in the sea, - Water

We should not lead people away from Biblical principles, but encourage them to be obedient to be Baptized.



JLB

 

[chessman]

1 Corinthians 12:13 settles the question for me. It is state in that verse "For by one Spirit are we baptized into one body."

But that's to simple, right? (just kidding). Good point.

dirtfarmer here

As you go about farming dirt day-to-day, does your outside body parts get dirty and you then wash your outside body with water to get the dirt off?
I wonder, how would that same water go about washing a person's inner body parts (heart, mind, spirit)??? Wouldn't that take some kind of spiritual (Spiritual) cleansing?

Acts 15:8-9 Disciples’ Literal New Testament (DLNT)

And God, the heart-knower, testified— having given the Holy Spirit to them, just as also to us. And He made no distinction between both us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
​

By faith??? Who's faith??? Ours??? What's Luke talking about???

God, the heart-knower:
1. gave the Holy Spirit to us
2. made no distinction between Jew/Gentile
3. cleansed our hearts by faith

John 6:29 Jesus responded and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you be believing in the One Whom that One sent-forth”.​

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The second one is in 1 Pet 3:
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

Actually Peter refers to water baptism, not "dry" baptism, in his connection to the water during Noah's day.

That's what I said. v20 speaks of literal water that Noah was saved FROM.

This water symbolizes baptism, [water baptism], that now saves you also.

This is a misreading of the text. v.21 is clear. "This water (literal water) SYMBOLIZES baptism that saves you". The "water" at the beginning of v.21 refers back to the literal water that Noah was saved THROUGH, or from.

He certainly wasn't save by the water, but through or from the water.

Please be aware that the rest of humanity was KILLED by literal water. They all drowned. That' NOT salvation in any sense.

The literal water symbolizes a dry or real baptism that saves a person.

Aren't you aware of what John the baptizer said about his baptism vs the baptism of Jesus? Where would one get literal water from "the Holy Spirit and fire"? Matt 3:11.

This water was a symbol of water baptism, just as going down into the sea, was a symbol of water baptism, which is one of the three baptisms that are mentioned.

No, water is NOT a "symbol of water baptism". That's just stuttering.

Literal water is a symbol of real baptism, which is the Holy Spirit.

Baptized into Christ
Baptized in water
Baptized with the Holy Spirit

The first and third are the same. The second one is all wet.

These correspond to the three baptisms today, as typified in the old testament.

OK, please explain 3 baptisms "typified" in the OT. And how is being baptized into Christ different than being baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

This passage refutes your view.

They were baptized IN THE SEA, but notice that "all passed THROUGH the sea" they STAYED DRY. Please explain how they went across on dry ground and yet were "baptized IN THE SEA".

Ex 14:22 - and the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left.

Now, explain how all the Egyptian army, which WAS IMMERSED in the Red Sea, weren't described as being "baptized IN THE SEA".

This is a clear statement that the baptism found in 1 Cor 10 is a DRY baptism, not all wet.

We should not lead people away from Biblical principles

For sure. That applies to yourself as well.

but encourage them to be obedient to be Baptized.

All believers should be obedient to all the commands of the Lord, including water baptism. But not for salvation.



JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"The second one is in 1 Pet 3:
20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

And I said this

Actually Peter refers to water baptism, not "dry" baptism, in his connection to the water during Noah's day.

This water symbolizes baptism, [water baptism], that now saves you also.

This water was a symbol of water baptism, just as going down into the sea, was a symbol of water baptism, which is one of the three baptisms that are mentioned.

Baptized into Christ
Baptized in water
Baptized with the Holy Spirit

These correspond to the three baptisms today, as typified in the old testament.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses - Into Christ
• in the cloud - The Holy Spirit
• and in the sea, - Water

We should not lead people away from Biblical principles, but encourage them to be obedient to be Baptized.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That's what I said. v20 speaks of literal water that Noah was saved FROM.

20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

• were saved through water,
• this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you

Saved THROUGH water, not saved FROM water.

You have misread the text.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

The water in Noah's day speaks of judgement. Noah was not judged by the water, but was saved from the water(judgement) by the "ark", a type of Jesus Christ. If you notice, Noah was not in the water, but was above the water by way of the "ark". Jesus Christ is our ark that saves us from judgement.

It is my understanding that it was the ark that came in direct contact with water of judgement Just as Jesus Christ, our ark, came into direct contact with the Judgement of the sin of the whole world.

The children of Israel didn't come in contact with the " parted waters of the sea" < but walked across on dry land. It was the Egyptian army that came in contact with the water of the sea and they all died.

So, do I believe in baptismal regeneration? yes, but it is Spirit baptism not water baptism

 

[JLB]

For sure. That applies to yourself as well.

Yes, which is why I encourage people to be Baptized in all three ways.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses - Into Christ
• in the cloud - The Holy Spirit
• and in the sea, - Water

How many Baptism's does the bible teach us there are?

Answer: Three



JLB

 

[JLB]

All believers should be obedient to all the commands of the Lord, including water baptism. But not for salvation.

Well, Jesus teaches us the truth: He who believes and is baptized will be saved;

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Yes, which is why I encourage people to be Baptized in all three ways.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses - Into Christ
• in the cloud - The Holy Spirit
• and in the sea, - Water

How many Baptism's does the bible teach us there are?

Answer: Three



JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

My copy of scripture tells me there is only one baptism: Ephesians 4:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us by that baptism are we in the "body" of Christ.

 

[Papa Zoom]

So, do I believe in baptismal regeneration? yes, but it is Spirit baptism not water baptism

Well said. Is it your understanding that this Spirit baptism happens at the moment we are saved which is when we first believed?

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

My copy of scripture tells me there is only one baptism: Ephesians 4:5 and 1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us by that baptism are we in the "body" of Christ.

There are different scriptures that deal with being Baptized in to Christ.

• 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4

• were baptized into Christ Jesus [the body of Christ] were baptized into His death

This is a reference to water baptism.

13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13

• by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body [the body of Christ]

To me this speaks of being born again, in which we are baptized into Christ Jesus, [The body of Christ] by the Spirit.


Acts 19 uses similar language, about being baptized


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied. Acts 19:1-6

• When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

To me this is when they were "born again" in which they were baptized by the Spirit into Christ. [The body of Christ]


Acts 10 uses the same language, [baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus], but meaning water baptism

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.Acts 10:44-48

• “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 8 also refers to baptism in the name of the Lord to refer to water baptism.

14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. 16 For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17

• For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

The Point:

• Acts 8:16 - Baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus = Water baptism
• Acts 10:48 - he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. = Water Baptism
• Acts 19:5 - When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. = Born again; Baptized into the body
• Romans 6:3 - were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? = Water Baptism
• 1 Corinthians 10:2 - all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea = Born again; Baptized into the body of Christ

Cherry picking some scriptures while ignoring others is how many are able to promote unbiblical doctrines.

• 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

• 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20

• 38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38

let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins

Peter also says

20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Peter 3:20-21


3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4

• I would never teach anyone to ignore water baptism, Spirit baptism or being born again and baptized into Christ.

The Lord gave them to us for a reason, and I don't believe we understand the fullness of the reason for all three and I would never want to minimize any of them.


Can a person be saved, on their death bed or car wreck or otherwise, without water baptism?

I believe they can.


However I would never teach someone to ignore water baptism.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

we be

Well said. Is it your understanding that this Spirit baptism happens at the moment we are saved which is when we first believed?

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

Yes, it is the "Spirit baptism" that changes us from enemies of God to children of God, so it has to be at the moment we believe. If it were not at the very moment that we believe then that would lead to an unscriptual of being an enemy of God and eternal life at the same time.

 

[FreeGrace]

And I said this

I know what was posted. Which is why I responded.

Actually Peter refers to water baptism, not "dry" baptism, in his connection to the water during Noah's day.

I never said otherwise. Wasn't my post even read???

This water symbolizes baptism, [water baptism], that now saves you also.

Define what "this water" refers to.
Since it's clear your view that the baptism that "now saves you" is [water baptism], you've created a problem The water of Noah's day KILLED all of humanity, save 8 persons, all of whom were in the ark, and SAVED FROM WATER.

This water was a symbol of water baptism

Again, this is silly. Water is NEVER a symbol of water. Water actually IS water. Nothing more, and nothing less.

 

[Papa Zoom]

we be

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

Yes, it is the "Spirit baptism" that changes us from enemies of God to children of God, so it has to be at the moment we believe. If it were not at the very moment that we believe then that would lead to an unscriptual of being an enemy of God and eternal life at the same time.

I understand it this way as well. Thanks!

 

[FreeGrace]

Saved THROUGH water, not saved FROM water.

Is it not clear that the entire human race was dunked in water and DIED??? They all drowned. They were NOT saved through water.

Only Noah and the 7 were saved FROM drowning. iow,they were saved THROUGH water.

iow, they were saved by being IN the ark, which floated THROUGH water, which saved them from drowning.

Please explain the illogical notion that the human race, who were all immersed IN THE WATER (which is what water baptism is), were saved through water. No, they DIED IN the water. It's called drowning. It's painful, horrible, terrible to die from suffocation.

You have misread the text.

It's clear that you have done that.

But, go ahead and explain why all those who were immersed IN the water died, and weren't saved by that action.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer here

The water in Noah's day speaks of judgement. Noah was not judged by the water, but was saved from the water(judgement) by the "ark", a type of Jesus Christ. If you notice, Noah was not in the water, but was above the water by way of the "ark". Jesus Christ is our ark that saves us from judgement.

It is my understanding that it was the ark that came in direct contact with water of judgement Just as Jesus Christ, our ark, came into direct contact with the Judgement of the sin of the whole world.

The children of Israel didn't come in contact with the " parted waters of the sea" < but walked across on dry land. It was the Egyptian army that came in contact with the water of the sea and they all died.

So, do I believe in baptismal regeneration? yes, but it is Spirit baptism not water baptism

Excellent explanation!

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, which is why I encourage people to be Baptized in all three ways.

One can only be baptized by their own choice by being immersed in literal water. The baptism of the Spirit is God's choice. Not ours.

Your teaching is in serious error.

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

• all were baptized into Moses - Into Christ
• in the cloud - The Holy Spirit
• and in the sea, - Water

How many Baptism's does the bible teach us there are?

I've already explained 1 Cor 10. Where are your answers to my questions and requests for explanations of why the Egyptian soldiers DIED from being IMMERSED in water, while Paul described the Exodus generation as being "baptized in the sea" even though they STAYED DRY??

While I recognize no poster is required to answer any question, lack of specific answers only weakens one's position.