Not sure how I "liked" this post.
grumix8 said
The Bible does not teach that.
1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.
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1 John 4:19 We love, because He first loved us.
That's not what the verse says.
Do you understand that John was writing to Christians and not the unregenerate?
factsandlogic from another forum posted somethign very important.
If a programer makes a robot (AI) have anger as part of its programming, it never choose to have it. Likewise if a god made us with freewill, we never chose it and use it because we have to and have no choice otherwise. An extension of having full freewill would be the choice to use it or not, which is... hold for it... a paradox.
Using a bible verse to prove freewill does nothing as the bible is a book of claims. Now you are on to proving free will after saying you did not need to do that?
“Set forth your case, says the Lord; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified” (Isaiah 41:21–23) This verse undermines freewill as god's omniscience precludes our ability to choose other than the will of god. https://answersingenesis.org/god/how...-about-future/
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...urnalCode=tjxa
To say this is not a logical argument is to say it is illogical. I agree your argument is not logical. Logical fallacies apply to any and all arguments BTW.
You literally said exactly that: "No (amount) philosopher (the experts) in the world believes this. " That is the argumentum ad populum and and appeal to authority.
I never said that. You are entirely missing the point of irony I am making that if we are not allowed to choose to have freewill then we are forced to have freewill. Do you now understand this point?
If a programer makes a robot (AI) have anger as part of its programming, it never choose to have it. Likewise if a god made us with freewill, we never chose it and use it because we have to and have no choice otherwise. An extension of having full freewill would be the choice to use it or not, which is... hold for it... a paradox.
Good thing I never said anything close to that hey? You really seem to like to straw man me.
So you are NOT arguing we have free will or not but rather the definition of it? Again, you realize I agreed to your definition from the get go right?. Do you often debate definitions with others who are not debating the definition at all? That seems strange. Do you often ignore the legitimacy of a concept in favour of a conceded definition argument? That seems unproductive.
Sorry I do not have to prove anything I never claimed in the first place. I suggest you read back. I use my words carefully and with precision.
Using a bible verse to prove freewill does nothing as the bible is a book of claims. Now you are on to proving free will after saying you did not need to do that?
“Set forth your case, says the Lord; bring your proofs, says the King of Jacob. Let them bring them, and tell us what is to happen. Tell us the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, that we may know their outcome; or declare to us the things to come. Tell us what is to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods; do good, or do harm, that we may be dismayed and terrified” (Isaiah 41:21–23) This verse undermines freewill as god's omniscience precludes our ability to choose other than the will of god. https://answersingenesis.org/god/how...-about-future/
Theology IS philosophy.
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...urnalCode=tjxa
Agreed. So please prove any mind has freewill. None has ever done this so you would be the first.
That is complete circular/leading. That is like me saying: " I am Superman." When asked to prove it, I say "Read my diary where it says as much". Ergo I am superman because I say so based on the diary I wrote. Am I superman? Do you believe I am? Should anyone believe that based on that circular argument?
I, in no manner choose to live, I had no choice in my birth. That argument is ergo falsified. BTW, telling life it has a choice is not actually giving it freewill. Education and acquisition are different things.
As I said/demonstrated above, there is no real difference between philosophy and theology as both are explorations of truth. To be clear, I am discussing both aspects of the freewill claim, its legitimacy/actuality and its role in Christian theology.
reprocity from another forum said this !
The idea that "you have to have choose free will in order to have free will" is YOU that is leading. You are the one who has to demonstrate why you have to choose free will in order to have free will, not just redefine free will as you want to. Because free will has never been about having a choice for every outcome, that includes the outcome which determines we can choose in the first place.
Last I checked, this is a theology subreddit. Not a philosophy subreddit. There are plenty of philosophical reasons to defend free will. I am not interested in them. I am here to talk about theology. Theologically, free will is rooted in holiness and omnipotence of God. If there is no free will, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot choose between the options to create life or not create life, then he is not omnipotent. He has clearly created life (again, this is a theology subreddit, not an apologetic subreddit) therefore God has free will and free will exists. Not only does God have free will, but he has communicated to the life that he created that they also can choose life! Humanity, created in the image of God, also has the free will that God has.
This is a theological argument for free will. I am happy to discuss this theological argument, or others. I am not interested in defending the philosophy of free will. That is a hole that goes pretty deep, and I have neither the time nor the desire to do so, on a sub that is dedicated to something else.
This is not a logical fallacy because it isn't a logical argument. It is a definitional argument. I am not saying my version exists because experts the vast amount of experts say so. I am saying the agreed upon debate of what free will revolves around the ability to choose. You seem to want to argue that free will is the ability to choose whether or not we have free will, and that is some other entirely silly debate that has nothing to do with free will. Just because we don't choose to have free will does not invalidate free will.
Again, I am not proving free will exists and arguing that there are limits to free will. I am talking about the standard definition of free will. There has always been a defined limit to free will. Free will has never been defined as a super power. I am not assuming free will exists in the comments above, I am simply saying that by presenting some whacky argument about whether or not free will exists is something that isn't even a discussion about free will. It is not an argument about "super powered willing of any and all outcomes" which includes the silly notion that you have to choose free will in order to have free will. My point is no one believes this, and you have to prove WHY we have to choose free will in order to have free will, using the standard definition of free will because this is what we mean when we say free will.
The idea that "you have to have choose free will in order to have free will" is YOU that is leading. You are the one who has to demonstrate why you have to choose free will in order to have free will, not just redefine free will as you want to. Because free will has never been about having a choice for every outcome, that includes the outcome which determines we can choose in the first place.
Deuteronomy 30:19 - "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Last I checked, this is a theology subreddit. Not a philosophy subreddit. There are plenty of philosophical reasons to defend free will. I am not interested in them. I am here to talk about theology. Theologically, free will is rooted in holiness and omnipotence of God. If there is no free will, then God is not omnipotent. If God cannot choose between the options to create life or not create life, then he is not omnipotent. He has clearly created life (again, this is a theology subreddit, not an apologetic subreddit) therefore God has free will and free will exists. Not only does God have free will, but he has communicated to the life that he created that they also can choose life! Humanity, created in the image of God, also has the free will that God has.
This is a theological argument for free will. I am happy to discuss this theological argument, or others. I am not interested in defending the philosophy of free will. That is a hole that goes pretty deep, and I have neither the time nor the desire to do so, on a sub that is dedicated to something else.
Angel digital 316 said :
Man lives under natural law. Suffering and Death comes prematurely to those who choose (or a led into) a path of sowing and reaping of the natural world.
A different and better way is revealed in the teachings of scripture to warn of the natural man and the natural man's tendency to sowing and reaping ignorant of natural law consequences.
This free will choice is then offered to live as natural man or to live super-naturally, being born again from above the world and world systems. One first becomes a slave to these principles obeying them blindly at the start, then recognizing their truth, a servant to the principles, finally in full obedience in understanding, the follower becomes a friend, not of the world, but as those born from above the world.
Man lives under natural law. Suffering and Death comes prematurely to those who choose (or a led into) a path of sowing and reaping of the natural world.
A different and better way is revealed in the teachings of scripture to warn of the natural man and the natural man's tendency to sowing and reaping ignorant of natural law consequences.
This free will choice is then offered to live as natural man or to live super-naturally, being born again from above the world and world systems. One first becomes a slave to these principles obeying them blindly at the start, then recognizing their truth, a servant to the principles, finally in full obedience in understanding, the follower becomes a friend, not of the world, but as those born from above the world.
Ellis Bell said :
Maybe this will help (I believe the man, L. Ray Smith, who authored this website is deceased)
The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
<snip>
Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even "force,' if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about."
I've had people in my life that would not do me any favors, change their minds and help me with situations. It's really odd to watch, cause it's like, what just happened?
Maybe this will help (I believe the man, L. Ray Smith, who authored this website is deceased)
The Myth of Free-Will Exposed
"Free will does not actually and literally mean that one can make choices, create, change his mind, or reformulate ideas and data, etc., but that those choices and thought processes must themselves be free thoughts and free choices. "Free will" is only true if our choices are also free. But free from what? Why, free from being forced upon us against our will, or free from being caused by anyone or anything except our OWN will. And so, yes, man can think, process data, make choices, change his choices, etc. But none of these activities are free from internal or external CAUSES.
<snip>
Up until the very last day with their Lord, the apostles all believed that they possessed the power of free will, which could enable them to choose their own destiny, and that they could and would have the strength of self determinism and free will to maintain that course. But Jesus told His disciples that they would all forsake Him. In other words, Jesus was foretelling of events that would cause (even "force,' if you will) them to change their wills, against their previously stated wills. They of course, all denied that Jesus knew what He was talking about."
I've had people in my life that would not do me any favors, change their minds and help me with situations. It's really odd to watch, cause it's like, what just happened?
Let us remember to use our own freewil you know and not use the model lucifer did in his rebbelion we are not the same we will not be judge the same we have repentance and freedom to choose they failed and coveted the powere God posses we must not look for that but be humble in acccept his will and we will do what God intended us before the fall of man and love God with all our heart and love thy neghbor and complete the purpose we were made in Eden and fulfill it today by making earth like heaven by singing and loving and praying being A witness of him and being like Jesus.
And when the lord judges the devil in end times he will say you were faithful and did not participate in the world but seperated in spiritual way and keep helping in the world but thinking of Jesus all the time.
Know their will A be time G-d will give justice to what the devil did to this world and all those who worship the world will put things in G-d's hand and not use thier own efforts but in his. Love like Jesus and be the second Adam. It is not easy but little by you become it and all efforts matter up the hill. We must deny ourselve and put him first and doing so we do his will and our choice in him. Secrets are in praying, singing and loving he reveals to us later.
Know their will A be time G-d will give justice to what the devil did to this world and all those who worship the world will put things in G-d's hand and not use thier own efforts but in his. Love like Jesus and be the second Adam. It is not easy but little by you become it and all efforts matter up the hill. We must deny ourselve and put him first and doing so we do his will and our choice in him. Secrets are in praying, singing and loving he reveals to us later.
People our will has been always united to him before our birth when we are born we thik we have indpeendence from him or we started in this existence born a citizen in A counrty and we are not coneccted to him ?
We are and have always been here the error we think we are seperated from him by independance or by vote or by going to the ballot. Know we are in A greater thing and that is love. Know in how in A realm or in kingdom of love know we were never meant to be born inpendant from him. We were meant in to be with him always perhaps our idealogy of freedom and politics cannot be used in this relationship.
We are and have always been here the error we think we are seperated from him by independance or by vote or by going to the ballot. Know we are in A greater thing and that is love. Know in how in A realm or in kingdom of love know we were never meant to be born inpendant from him. We were meant in to be with him always perhaps our idealogy of freedom and politics cannot be used in this relationship.
Here two promblems that come and clash that our existence is us knowing we exist and conscience gives us the ability to know who we are and what is life and it's purpose but the other clash is we are born/created from God and did not want us to kow good and evil but wanted to live in the garden and knowing becomes sin and we are spearate from him and know freedom is sin ? No, we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey bu letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did can we ahve the realtionship Adam had with God like Jesus had with God ? Yes.
The first is that we are born into existence know we are being we are born picture this if Human created and A.I. and it could live and feel like us but still would it ask space and says he diecide evrything by itself qwhat you would you ? let it decide already and it's virgin mind be crisp clean and letting ti go it's own way like the wiond and ggoes perfectly align in the universe by itself ? Some would argu it should be free because it would fit life perfectly going it's natural way and not our humans and animal way to destroy and contorl everhything like our civilization has done since greeks and since romans to do. Rememeber we were never meant to be like this with A civilization and army, No. He sill wanted us to obey hima nd be in the Garden to be in paradise forever bu came the enemy ( the devil) and our paraidzse ruin.
No, God-relation with man isn't like an A.I. been created or A mamal been born to be like deer or leopard and go thweir natural way and live life in the circle of life. Our realtion was never for the animals and us to be in paradise and no animal kill each other. We were created to live and be seravnts of the most high our purpose was another. He made us to choose and gave us freewil since the beggingin to live but those who know what destiny is and what future,past, and present know you live you born and die say you don't have freewil your life is planned already liek animals and you live in the box. You can't get out, Her scientist and rational humainze come to conlfict with both clashes and realize that choosing is not real !
No, people you can choose and your decison change everything but you do not have the inteliggence to be hummble and to wise know, our paths are can change and predetermination and God's soveriegn and ot his soveriegn do exist and have their been in destiny what he wrote changed ? yes God writes everything we do and writes what your going to do. But god allows probabilities billions to one that things can change and destiny can change people. We have Elijah, Huldah, and Moses who change the future of Israel and show probabilities do exist and do happen.
Know there is born to existence and consciuonsess in this world that we are born and theologist , writtters , and greek thinkers, german thinkers like Nietzche, socrates, aristotles, and Einstein say to leave that of A born baby consciouness is original and shows only good and A way that existence is based on human efforts not true our exsitence is not base on our efforts. And originality is given by our consciousness and perception but know they are wrong. This is why an error remember in this discussion man cannot know evil if not for good and evil tree it is important that we realize if an A.I. created will not undertand what God established things. So know ther eis A difference.
Know there is born to existence and consciuonsess in this world that we are born and theologist , writtters , and greek thinkers, german thinkers like Nietzche, socrates, aristotles, and Einstein say to leave that of A born baby consciouness is original and shows only good and A way that existence is based on human efforts not true our exsitence is not base on our efforts. And originality is given by our consciousness and perception but know they are wrong. This is why an error remember in this discussion man cannot know evil if not for good and evil tree it is important that we realize if an A.I. created will not undertand what God established things. So know ther eis A difference.
1.human created A.I. and it has freedom and born crisp clean
2. God-man realationship we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey bu letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did. Know this the importance of freedom we must have the realtion Jesus ahd with God and align our will with his and originaly liek he wanted and know you have freedom to do only good and it is how perfect freedom is with him and know it is better than any doubt modern thinkers like einstien, max plank aristoltes and socrates would argue about destinypredetermiantion, future , past and present.
Be in God' path by putting yor will to his and avoid this conflicts.
2. God-man realationship we have freedom in the garden and God let Adam obey and disobey bu letting A tree there and let him had choice to not of eat of it or did eat of it. He had perfect will Adam to obey God and keep choosing freely and walking freely without asking God where to in the garden yes he did. Know this the importance of freedom we must have the realtion Jesus ahd with God and align our will with his and originaly liek he wanted and know you have freedom to do only good and it is how perfect freedom is with him and know it is better than any doubt modern thinkers like einstien, max plank aristoltes and socrates would argue about destinypredetermiantion, future , past and present.
Be in God' path by putting yor will to his and avoid this conflicts.
Did you end up changing your position after reading and considering Freddie's presentations?
No, I talk something more complete we are still in the tip of the iceberg in freewill because we have to understand it thru the light in the old times of hebrew people know in hebrrew means more what we are saying.