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Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?

No don't go that way Wonering. God gave free total control for you to say yes or no. Don't go and say he planned you to say everything to that extreme he gave all to escape sin and do not go overthink it please wondering. God is not A tyrant he does let us have choice and from this ground to the sky he lets us dream and do whatever we want to amke it real. Your going to conflict wondering, next you question God if he decides for you all and you don't know he decided you everything in you life. Don't complicate yourself is here a blindspot in destiny that happens ? See Huldah and Moses made mistakes.


Moses hit the rock when God told him to pray to him and water flowed. Moses change destiny and the way should of been God allowed it seeing that all probabilities can changed and even in the wrong direction. The word of God was changed there Wondering I don't agree it should of happened. Moses messed up liek we all do and forgave him and took Moses to heaven for changing the word of God. But your going in conflict that he decided everythig and say of your agent has freewill to begin with. He does if error of Moses happened and happy ending happen. God allowed he is God he reverse time he undo anything but let man continues his path and his error not God's.


Don't go to conflict becuase you have mentality of been in modern world and see democracy and see rigths and all things people have in liberal world. And it's good for some point of view but reality he didn't want us to have that he wanted us to be part of kingdom where he is the father and the kig who take care of us. And if he violates your right Wondering those things don't exist with God becuase he is above it and he intercedes for us against it sometimes. Sometimes this modern world sets laws that give freedom to vote, vote for congress, and to let people have freedom of speech.


But When government uses does things against you and use your money to for lgbt agendas to your kids and use your votes against God changes the outcomes in the elections that are coming. God is against this world and the rights it gives you. But you part of his kingdom and gives you the freedom to be in love with hima nd with th truth or the world. The world and freedom sometimes wondering too much freedom giving by government and ruling bodies. doesn't mean it goes with the plan of God You have to ask yourself the plan of God is more important than the world.
 
Wondering let go of questioning God ? he is not against you and your agenda or your life he gave you freedom. You have it better than your ancestors you can do anything in this world and he will help you get your dreams done. What you need to do is ask God and pray get me this questioning that you decide it all or go away and let me decide my future conflict. You don't know but God gave you the chance to be saved and be something in this world that he asks you. To be his witness in this war against the devil, know that like Jeremiah says

Jeremiah 1:5 and also Psalm 139:13-18 says it.

He knew you before you were born and sent you as a prophet among nations.

You know wondering what you should do is be the person God sent you here, be the person before God sent you. For we all came from heaven and we cannot bring anything from there.

1 Timothy 6:7

6 Of course, godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, so we cannot carry anything out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these.…

See that God wanted you here and you agree to be here before he sent you on his plan to saved us. You know how to answer your question, Wondering ? ;D Find why he sent you here and then you will answer your question and you will find why he sent you ?

Don't go agaisnt God's plan and don't go against he's will Wondering he doesn't want you against him. Were in battle against the devil and we need to stay frim in his plan and he's plan is adjusted to you in what you want Wondering.

Look for what God wanted you to do here and you will find the answer of your question ;D.
 
Last edited:
grumix8 said:
Wondering let go of questioning God ? he is not against you and your agenda or your life he gave you freedom. You have it better than your ancestors you can do anything in this world and he will help you get your dreams done. What you need to do is ask God and pray get me this questioning that you decide it all or go away and let me decide my future conflict. You don't know but God gave you the chance to be saved and be something in this world that he asks you. To be his witness in this war against the devil, know that like Jeremiah says

Jeremiah 1:5 and also Psalm 139:13-18 says it.

He knew you before you were born and sent you as a prophet among nations.

You know wondering what you should do is be the person God sent you here, be the person before God sent you. For we all came from heaven and we cannot bring anything from there.

1 Timothy 6:7

6 Of course, godliness with contentment is great gain. 7For we brought nothing into the world, so we cannot carry anything out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with these.…

See that God wanted you here and you agree to be here before he sent you on his plan to saved us. You know how to answer your question, Wondering ? ;D Find why he sent you here and then you will answer your question and you will find why he sent you ?

Don't go agaisnt God's plan and don't go against he's will Wondering he doesn't want you against him. Were in battle against the devil and we need to stay frim in his plan and he's plan is adjusted to you in what you want Wondering.

Look for what God wanted you to do here and you will find the answer of your question ;D.
Click to expand...
Hi G,
It's 1am here and I can't answer you now.
You might have misunderstood my post.
Tomorrow.
 
wondering said:
Hi T,
I'm not going to be informed enough to discuss this and I kind of hate to reopen this thread,
but I wanted to ask you this:
Don't you think modalism is just a step away from predestination?
If God sets up the perfect situation so that a person will choose what God wants him to choose, isn't that total control with no real free will for the agent?
Click to expand...

Modalism is an old heresy (see: Monarchianism) related to the God-head that proposes that God is not three distinct Persons, but mere modes, or states of action, in which God manifests Himself. A common example of this thinking is in the likening of God to water: A cup of water may become steam, or ice, or liquid but it is always, essentially, the same cup of water - just like God (supposedly).

Modal logic is a form of logic fundamentally concerned with the language modals "necessity" and "possibility," or with the phrases "It is necessary that," and "It is possible that."

Molinism is the soteriological system proposed by the Jesuit priest, Luis de Molina, in the 16th century that asserts that God has "middle knowledge" constituted of three logical (not chronological) moments: natural, middle and free. It's a systematic that seeks to reconcile divine sovereignty with human free agency but avoid divine/theological determinism.

Here's a good but brief introduction to the soteriological view:

 
Tenchi said:
Modalism is an old heresy (see: Monarchianism) related to the God-head that proposes that God is not three distinct Persons, but mere modes, or states of action, in which God manifests Himself. A common example of this thinking is in the likening of God to water: A cup of water may become steam, or ice, or liquid but it is always, essentially, the same cup of water - just like God (supposedly).

Modal logic is a form of logic fundamentally concerned with the language modals "necessity" and "possibility," or with the phrases "It is necessary that," and "It is possible that."

Molinism is the soteriological system proposed by the Jesuit priest, Luis de Molina, in the 16th century that asserts that God has "middle knowledge" constituted of three logical (not chronological) moments: natural, middle and free. It's a systematic that seeks to reconcile divine sovereignty with human free agency but avoid divine/theological determinism.

Here's a good but brief introduction to the soteriological view:

Click to expand...
I meant molinism!
Sorry.
Could you reply to my question now?
 
The OP question needs a further consideration.

Does a man have a will, compared to Gods will ?


No, as God does according to HIs will in Heaven, and none can stay His hand or say to God, what are you doing ?

That is the testimony of the Son of God ( who we believe in and not the questioning of man.) that Christ came down from Heaven, not to do His own will, but the will of the Father.( this shows Gods will now was done on earth, as it was in Heaven.)

Christ also testified ( for us to believe in) that whosoever shall do that same will of the Father, which is in Heaven, we are the brother and sister and mother, to Christ. ( all is through believing these testimonies of Jesus Christ.)

Therefore God has mercy on who He has mercy, others are hardened ( in pride) and who has resisted the will of God ?

Nobody can question God or stay His hand. ( the Lord we see, does His will in Heaven, then did His will on earth.)

That is God making known to us the mystery of His will.





Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Romans 9:8 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
 
wondering said:
Hi T,
I'm not going to be informed enough to discuss this and I kind of hate to reopen this thread,
but I wanted to ask you this:
Don't you think modalism is just a step away from predestination?
If God sets up the perfect situation so that a person will choose what God wants him to choose, isn't that total control with no real free will for the agent?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure how to answer that. Why I am free will I do believe God can command anything He chooses. So why the need to set up situations? And what we can read in the OT is a people who were chosen by God who broke the covenant God made with them. They didn't listen to God even after His many warnings that were sent through His prophets. He allowed their freewill but what they chose was not Gods desire for them.

Elijah and the widow of Zarephath
Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Go now to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and live there; for I have commanded a widow there to feed you.
 
In the old test the freewill people had was with hardened hearts ( of unbelief. 2 Kings 17:14.), but that changed, the freewill left for people is a heart of flesh of belief. ( this is the grace of God, as nobody can save themselves, or have that or any freedom to do anything therefore.) and the hardened heart ( of unbelief) was removed by the Spirit of God.




Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Hebrews 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



It cannot make sense in any other way, for believing that God was merciful to our unrighteousness and sins( done through freewill) and then our iniquities are remembered no more. ( through a new heart and Spirit which is not free will, it is entirely the will of the Lord God for us, as our covenant that was faulty, was not allowed to be any more as testified.)
 
We see how God solved all problems done under free will, how the false teachers cannot manipulate any more, as now God teaches us Himself also. ( And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.)

God caused the prophets to pass out of the land. (ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.)



Zechariah 13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
 
Idols are cut off because covetousness is testified to be idolatry, and anyone who is covetous does not inherit the Kingdom of God. ( 1 Corinthians 6:10.)

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:


That shows so much for free will, how we were hearing the false prophets( now no more) how we had hardened hearts of unbelief( no more as the new covenant is a heart of flesh through the Spirit) and how all was through unbelief, in uncleanness, now we are washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God( the new covenant is not negotiable by free will, it is the will of God as we can see, as our own spirit is changed to the Spirit of Christ, and we continue in the faith hearing only Gods words, which we thirst for and not for anything else, as the water Christ gave springs up in us, unto a well of everlasting life, there is no room possible for anything else when filled with righteousness, also being filled with the fruits of righteousness by Jesus Christ, means no room left for unrighteousness/ Philippians 1:11. All of this is the grace of God as it gives glory and praise unto Him alone.)



1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Matthew 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Philippians 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
 
For info on this OP.




Everything anyone did wrong in the old test is covered, they are no made perfect without us.



Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



The same goes for the new test, until that Spirit is received and, the change that had to be accepted by the Jews, in the Gentile believers now accepted in the beloved, was that Jews could not know men of a different nation, ( Acts 10:28.) as God had made us all one in Him.




Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
 
Tenchi said:
Well, if you watch the video, you'll see that your question does not properly characterize the Molinist view.
Click to expand...
Watched the video....knew that.
My question stands.
You could agree with me or not.
grumix8 said:
No don't go that way Wonering. God gave free total control for you to say yes or no. Don't go and say he planned you to say everything to that extreme he gave all to escape sin and do not go overthink it please wondering. God is not A tyrant he does let us have choice and from this ground to the sky he lets us dream and do whatever we want to amke it real. Your going to conflict wondering, next you question God if he decides for you all and you don't know he decided you everything in you life. Don't complicate yourself is here a blindspot in destiny that happens ? See Huldah and Moses made mistakes.
Click to expand...

Hi Grumix,
I agree with the above.
I was writing to a calvinist and maybe I was explaining something.
There is no agreement between me and the reformed faith.
It's the opposite of everything the bible teaches and the opposite of how we know God to be.
It changes God.

Why would God make a bunch of robots?
Is He so unsovereign that He would be afraid to make real persons that have free will and make their own decision?
No. God is sovereign. He was not afraid to make us in His image and in that image is free will.

grumix8 said:
Moses hit the rock when God told him to pray to him and water flowed. Moses change destiny and the way should of been God allowed it seeing that all probabilities can changed and even in the wrong direction. The word of God was changed there Wondering I don't agree it should of happened. Moses messed up liek we all do and forgave him and took Moses to heaven for changing the word of God. But your going in conflict that he decided everythig and say of your agent has freewill to begin with. He does if error of Moses happened and happy ending happen. God allowed he is God he reverse time he undo anything but let man continues his path and his error not God's.


Don't go to conflict becuase you have mentality of been in modern world and see democracy and see rigths and all things people have in liberal world. And it's good for some point of view but reality he didn't want us to have that he wanted us to be part of kingdom where he is the father and the kig who take care of us. And if he violates your right Wondering those things don't exist with God becuase he is above it and he intercedes for us against it sometimes. Sometimes this modern world sets laws that give freedom to vote, vote for congress, and to let people have freedom of speech.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
We are to be members of God's Kingdom - and I mean here on earth.
And why would we need an advocate if we sin - if it is God that makes us sin? It makes no logical sense.
In John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion, it is stated that God predestinated everything.
John MaCarthur and John Piper and RC Sproul all say that God even created evil.

grumix8 said:
But When government uses does things against you and use your money to for lgbt agendas to your kids and use your votes against God changes the outcomes in the elections that are coming. God is against this world and the rights it gives you. But you part of his kingdom and gives you the freedom to be in love with hima nd with th truth or the world. The world and freedom sometimes wondering too much freedom giving by government and ruling bodies. doesn't mean it goes with the plan of God You have to ask yourself the plan of God is more important than the world.
Click to expand...
Agreed. And it saddens me to see these things happening,
I mean in schools and about kids.
It's sick.
 
wondering said:
Don't you think modalism is just a step away from predestination?
If God sets up the perfect situation so that a person will choose what God wants him to choose, isn't that total control with no real free will for the agent?
Click to expand...

Hmmm... According to Molinism - and I'm no expert, here - God doesn't "set up the perfect situation," but knows all things we would, could and will do in any possible situation. Armed with this knowledge, He has acted to instantiate the one world out of all possible worlds in which the maximum number of people possible freely choose Christ. This isn't God using divine foreknowledge to manipulate us into certain choices and circumstances, but God knowing what we will freely choose to do and responding accordingly. Inasmuch as the majority of people in our world will not choose Christ (Matthew 7:13-14), it is evident that no possible world exists in which more, or all, people would ever freely choose him; for if such a world existed, God, being good, would have created that world. A good God would, after all, want to maximize salvation of the lost, would He not?

If we are to be free to choose God, to choose Christ, which is necessary to genuinely loving Him (Matthew 22:36-38), we cannot be ordained to such a choice, compelled by divine will into it. And so, rather than God just arbitrarily ordaining that the majority of people end up in hell (as the Calvinist systematic proposes, ostensibly to God's glory), on Molinism, God has acted to save as many as He knows will freely receive Christ in a world where genuine creaturely freedom exists. Our world, then, is, despite the many who are lost for eternity, a testament to God's goodness, not His cruel, destructive sovereignty, as is the case on Reformed doctrine.

In view of these things, I don't see Molinism as being "just a step away from predestination." Those who are the Elect, predestined to salvation, are those whom God foreknew from eternity past would freely choose Christ and thus are elect in him as a consequence of their free choice.
 
We cant look to anyone else but Christ for our faith, all else are the author of confusion.

Why else is the world full of goats, wolves in sheep's clothing, and the devil as an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness.( unless they are evil robots, programmed and made to be destroyed.)


1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.




Ordained to life, or appointed to death:


Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
 
Again, we hear God who cant author anything but faith, not people who can only author coinfusion.( very simple really, and why it is called the simplicity of Christ to not be beguiled by the serpents subtilty.)


2 Corinthians 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.



So again, very simply, God creates all, forms all, both light and darkness, makes peace and creates evil( non peace)

God does all, because God is doing His will, man cant even understand it nor speak against any of it.

If a mans ways please the Lord, He MAKES, even our enemies to be at peace with us. ( we please the Lord when the Lord changes us to not be in the flesh, when the Spirit of Christ is in us.)

If Christ is in anyone( through the faith God gives) their body is dead( no free will to live as dead, when you are now alive to God in His righteousness.)



Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

1 Samuel 16:14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Proverbs 16:7 When a man's ways please the Lord, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.



Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
Randy said:
I'm not sure how to answer that. Why I am free will I do believe God can command anything He chooses. So why the need to set up situations? And what we can read in the OT is a people who were chosen by God who broke the covenant God made with them. They didn't listen to God even after His many warnings that were sent through His prophets. He allowed their freewill but what they chose was not Gods desire for them.

Elijah and the widow of Zarephath
Then the word of the Lord came to him, saying, 9 “Go now to Zarephath, which belongs to Sidon, and live there; for I have commanded a widow there to feed you.
Click to expand...
Good point, I didn't even think of that.
Molinism is some kind of halfway between free will and determinism.
IOW, How does God get the result He wants and still let us have our free will?
This would be a way.
But even thought God is not directly causing the person to choose what He wants so that the person could retain free will, He would still be setting up a situation wherein the person would choose what God wanted him to - but done entirely with his free will. To me that sounds too much like determinism because, no matter how God does this to get His result, it's still Him doing the manipulating.


Tenchi
 
gordon777 said:
We cant look to anyone else but Christ for our faith, all else are the author of confusion.
Click to expand...

??? Not sure what this has to do with my discussion of Molinism with wondering...

gordon777 said:
Again, we hear God who cant author anything but faith, not people who can only author coinfusion.( very simple really, and why it is called the simplicity of Christ to not be beguiled by the serpents subtilty.)
Click to expand...

Uh, this is both overly-simplistic and acutely in error. God has Authored the entire universe, not just faith.

You're a person writing on this forum. Are you only authoring confusion, then? According to your statement above, you are.

gordon777 said:
So again, very simply, God creates all, forms all, both light and darkness, makes peace and creates evil( non peace)
Click to expand...

I thought you said God can only author (that is, create) faith...

gordon777 said:
God does all,
Click to expand...

??? Does God cause the rapist to rape, the murderer to murder, the pedophile to abuse children? These horrible things would be included in "all."
 
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