Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?

[gordon777]

There are no good points in discussions, as love is exampled to be in deed and in truth. ( charity edifies, knowledge puffs up)

The one good point anyone has, is Jesus Christ and Him crucified, the preaching of the cross( by seeing the dying of the Lord Jesus in us) which proves the talkers must be vanity.



1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.


1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.




2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm... According to Molinism - and I'm no expert, here - God doesn't "set up the perfect situation," but knows all things we would, could and will do in any possible situation. Armed with this knowledge, He has acted to instantiate the one world out of all possible worlds in which the maximum number of people possible freely choose Christ. This isn't God using divine foreknowledge to manipulate us into certain choices and circumstances, but God knowing what we will freely choose to do and responding accordingly. Inasmuch as the majority of people in our world will not choose Christ (Matthew 7:13-14), it is evident that no possible world exists in which more, or all, people would ever freely choose him; for if such a world existed, God, being good, would have created that world. A good God would, after all, want to maximize salvation of the lost, would He not?

If we are to be free to choose God, to choose Christ, which is necessary to genuinely loving Him (Matthew 22:36-38), we cannot be ordained to such a choice, compelled by divine will into it. And so, rather than God just arbitrarily ordaining that the majority of people end up in hell (as the Calvinist systematic proposes, ostensibly to God's glory), on Molinism, God has acted to save as many as He knows will freely receive Christ in a world where genuine creaturely freedom exists. Our world, then, is, despite the many who are lost for eternity, a testament to God's goodness, not His cruel, destructive sovereignty, as is the case on Reformed doctrine.

In view of these things, I don't see Molinism as being "just a step away from predestination." Those who are the Elect, predestined to salvation, are those whom God foreknew from eternity past would freely choose Christ and thus are elect in him as a consequence of their free choice.

I'm not too sure Craig means to be speaking of soteriology.
I think he means everything that happens so that God may get the result he wants.

Your first paragraph certainly does sound calvinistic - which is my point.
If God created this "world", He has to much to do with events IMHO. Very humble, I should say.

Just food for thought.
I mentioned you in a different post.

 

[gordon777]

??? Not sure what this has to do with my discussion of Molinism with wondering...



Uh, this is both overly-simplistic and acutely in error. God has Authored the entire universe, not just faith.

You're a person writing on this forum. Are you only authoring confusion, then? According to your statement above, you are.



I thought you said God can only author (that is, create) faith...



??? Does God cause the rapist to rape, the murderer to murder, the pedophile to abuse children? These horrible things would be included in "all."

See next reply, how words can only possibly be vanity, I am writing for now, and for everyone who continues, they are without evidence of the dying of the Lord Jesus, they show no belief in the cross and crucified Christ by debates and strife. ( especially they who live for strife/debate)


Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

 

[gordon777]

Clearly the people who are implacable to not only speak of Christ and Him crucified( not to be corrected to go and live it and show this in life about Christ dying and living in them) will love in word and tongue only.( showing, according to your discussions, there is no free ill, they cannot be corrected.)


Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

[GodsGrace]

??? Not sure what this has to do with my discussion of Molinism with wondering...



Uh, this is both overly-simplistic and acutely in error. God has Authored the entire universe, not just faith.

You're a person writing on this forum. Are you only authoring confusion, then? According to your statement above, you are.



I thought you said God can only author (that is, create) faith...



??? Does God cause the rapist to rape, the murderer to murder, the pedophile to abuse children? These horrible things would be included in "all."

Yes. MaCarthur and Piper will state your last sentence with no hesitancy.
RC Sproul also believed this, but he was very soft in how he taught reformed theology.
I have a feeling (not based on anything) that RC didn't like the reformed doctrines too much.

 

[GodsGrace]

See next reply, how words can only possibly be vanity, I am writing for now, and for everyone who continues, they are without evidence of the dying of the Lord Jesus, they show no belief in the cross and crucified Christ by debates and strife. ( especially they who live for strife/debate)


Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

Gordon, you can think what you may and some certainly do come to these forums to dispute and say disparaging things, but some come here to discuss things of the bible because they like to learn new things about either what the bible teaches or about God.

Don't put all the hay into one bundle.

 

[gordon777]

We cant look to anyone else but Christ for our faith, all else are the author of confusion. ( Christ is the living example, of laying His life down for us, all people do on forums is show their love is in debate/strife, which is the opposite to Christ actual giving of HIs life.)




1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[gordon777]

Gordon, you can think what you may and some certainly do come to these forums to dispute and say disparaging things, but some come here to discuss things of the bible because they like to learn new things about either what the bible teaches or about God.

Don't put all the hay into one bundle.

Always bearing about in our body to show the life of Christ( is never done on forums)


2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.


But as the word predicts, God gave them to a reprobate mind, so they cannot be corrected. ( NO FREE WILL IS WHAT THE FORUMS PROVE and are for.)


Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

[GodsGrace]

Always bearing about in our body to show the life of Christ( is never done on forums)


2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.


But as the word predicts, God gave them to a reprobate mind, so they cannot be corrected. ( NO FREE WILL IS WHAT THE FORUMS PROVE and are for.)


Romans 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Am I all those things?
I don't really come here to give glory to God...discussing Him without witnessing is not really giving glory.

However, I must say that I think YOU are doing more damage than anyone's post that I've read today.
Calling your brothers in Christ such terrible names is not a very Christianly thing to do.

And if you think I'm not a person worthy of the love of God, then you're still making the mistake of turning me off to his Word because of how you conduct yourself and then call yourself a Christian. IOW, if you're an example of a Christian, my regard of them would not be very high.

I just think you're making a mistake either way you want to think of this.
Thing is, I just don't think of myself as being so perfectly holy that I can't be on a forum.

 

[Tenchi]

I'm not too sure Craig means to be speaking of soteriology.
I think he means everything that happens so that God may get the result he wants.

Your first paragraph certainly does sound calvinistic - which is my point.
If God created this "world", He has to much to do with events IMHO. Very humble, I should say.

Just food for thought.
I mentioned you in a different post.

Molinism unavoidably touches on matters soteriological but it is not strictly focused on them as is Calvinism/Reformed doctrine.

Human free agency cannot, obviously, be a radical, hyper-freedom, utterly autonomous and independent of God or circumstances. As you point out, God is the Creator of Everything; what's more, we live within the physical constraints of the material universe and are bound by circumstantial factors (birth, culture, class, etc.) completely beyond our control. But Molinism rejects the idea of theological determinism where God meticulously ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Instead, God doesn't ordain our choices but knows and responds to what we will freely choose to do, using that knowledge to instantiate a world that most maximizes the salvation of the lost. How this seems like a hairsbreadth from determinism to you, I don't understand. The difference between the two views is as great as the difference between knowing your cat will eventually cough up a hair ball and acting in response and forcing your cat to lick itself until it produces a hairball. These don't seem like similar states of affairs to me at all.

One of the many things that commends Molinism to me is that it catches flack from both sides of the soteriological spectrum, the Armininian saying it is too much like Calvinism and the Calvinist accusing the view of aligning excessively with Arminianism. This suggests to me that Molinism occupies a more balanced middle ground between these opposing perspectives that is, to me at least, very attractive.

 

[Tenchi]

Yes. MaCarthur and Piper will state your last sentence with no hesitancy.
RC Sproul also believed this, but he was very soft in how he taught reformed theology.

Which thinking is appalling, as far as I'm concerned, and completely dissolves Reformed doctrine as a reasonable or biblical soteriological perspective.

Jeremiah 19:4-5 (NASB)
4 "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent
5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind;
1 John 1:5 (NASB)
5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.

James 1:13-14 (NASB)
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

 

[GodsGrace]

Molinism unavoidably touches on matters soteriological but it is not strictly focused on them as is Calvinism/Reformed doctrine.

Human free agency cannot, obviously, be a radical, hyper-freedom, utterly autonomous and independent of God or circumstances. As you point out, God is the Creator of Everything; what's more, we live within the physical constraints of the material universe and are bound by circumstantial factors (birth, culture, class, etc.) completely beyond our control. But Molinism rejects the idea of theological determinism where God meticulously ordains whatsoever comes to pass.

OK

Instead, God doesn't ordain our choices but knows and responds to what we will freely choose to do, using that knowledge to instantiate a world that most maximizes the salvation of the lost. How this seems like a hairsbreadth from determinism to you, I don't understand.

Because He still controls what is going to make me act on His will.
It does keep my free will in tact however.

The difference between the two views is as great as the difference between knowing your cat will eventually cough up a hair ball and acting in response and forcing your cat to lick itself until it produces a hairball. These don't seem like similar states of affairs to me at all.

I guess you must have a cat too.

I hate analogies but let's try yours. It's negative though, so not easy.
I know my cat will cough up a hairball.
I force my cat to lick himself until he produces a hairball.

No. That's not a good analogy.

Try this:

God doesn't want me to go to the baseball game on Friday for whatever reason.
Instead of DETERMINING, from the beginning of time, that I would say NO to my friends,
He instead creates a situation whereby I get sick on Thursday and end up not being able to go on Friday.

I still end up not going to the game.
It was through my free will decision due to sickness,
but God, somehow, caused the situation of happen whereby I could not go and MUST say no.

One of the many things that commends Molinism to me is that it catches flack from both sides of the soteriological spectrum, the Armininian saying it is too much like Calvinism and the Calvinist accusing the view of aligning excessively with Arminianism. This suggests to me that Molinism occupies a more balanced middle ground between these opposing perspectives that is, to me at least, very attractive.

Right. Agreed. And we don't have to go back and forth on this.
I understand molinism a little, but most don't know about it.
I wanted to get your opinion as to the slight resemblance to determinism...you don't see it.
OK. No problem.

 

[Tenchi]

Try this:

God doesn't want me to go to the baseball game on Friday for whatever reason.
Instead of DETERMINING, from the beginning of time, that I would say NO to my friends,
He instead creates a situation whereby I get sick on Thursday and end up not being able to go on Friday.

I still end up not going to the game.
It was through my free will decision due to sickness,
but God, somehow, caused the situation of happen whereby I could not go and MUST say no.

But does this actually reflect reality? Not that I can see. How often do people act contrary to God's will? All the time. Wouldn't God want us to do His will? Yes. Why, then, does He let so many things contrary to His will occur? Especially if God is constantly manipulating circumstances to negate our will and bring about His, why are we able to defy His will so commonly - and often in horrendous degree? I don't see in this that God is wresting our free agency from us by way of the manipulation of circumstances. This isn't to say, though, that God never intervenes in such a way. He does, but as a relatively rare exception, I think, not the rule.

In the matter of one's salvation, in particular, I think Molinism accounts for God's "election" of His children while preserving their free agency pretty well. Certainly, a systematic that can do this is much to be preferred to one that makes God into a moral monster, as Reformed doctrine does.

The analogy of the cat, by the way, was aimed solely at the distinction between foreknowledge and causation.

 

[Tenchi]

See next reply, how words can only possibly be vanity, I am writing for now, and for everyone who continues, they are without evidence of the dying of the Lord Jesus, they show no belief in the cross and crucified Christ by debates and strife. ( especially they who live for strife/debate)


Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

1 Timothy 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

You are wanting to make assertions without having to defend them by wagging your finger at what you call "strife/debate." As I explained to you before, strife and debate are not the same thing. And neither strife nor debate are always necessarily evil things. How many times did God send Israel into battle, striving against the pagan nations surrounding them? Many, many times! Was God doing evil when He commanded his Chosen People to strive violently against these nations?

What about Jesus? He debated with the Pharisees and scribes a number of times, and even at one point fashioned a whip and went to town on those making the temple into a place of commerce. What was he doing striving so violently against others? Didn't he understand what you're saying about strife and debate? Or, maybe, you're the one who doesn't understand...

Paul also went into temples and meeting places in the towns through which he traveled and debated with the folks he met, telling them of the Gospel and reasoning with them through argument and evidence. How dare he, right? He was just being contentious and was - according to you - even denying the cross of Christ in his debating! Wow. Why do we trust anything Paul wrote, then, eh? Possibly, though, you might not be seeing things correctly...

Clearly the people who are implacable to not only speak of Christ and Him crucified( not to be corrected to go and live it and show this in life about Christ dying and living in them) will love in word and tongue only.( showing, according to your discussions, there is no free ill, they cannot be corrected.)


Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

I don't understand any of this. You're writing here is pretty jumbled.

 

[GodsGrace]

But does this actually reflect reality? Not that I can see. How often do people act contrary to God's will? All the time. Wouldn't God want us to do His will? Yes. Why, then, does He let so many things contrary to His will occur? Especially if God is constantly manipulating circumstances to negate our will and bring about His, why are we able to defy His will so commonly - and often in horrendous degree? I don't see in this that God is wresting our free agency from us by way of the manipulation of circumstances. This isn't to say, though, that God never intervenes in such a way. He does, but as a relatively rare exception, I think, not the rule.

Maybe molinism takes effect as a theory ONLY when God wants to intervene in human history?
This would make sense to me.
I've always like the football scenario and Molinism is the closest I've read about it.

In the matter of one's salvation, in particular, I think Molinism accounts for God's "election" of His children while preserving their free agency pretty well. Certainly, a systematic that can do this is much to be preferred to one that makes God into a moral monster, as Reformed doctrine does.

Needs some thinking.
But, yes, agreed on your last sentence.
Prevenient grace comes to mind vs Molinism.
I think it would be one or the other - not both together.

The analogy of the cat, by the way, was aimed solely at the distinction between foreknowledge and causation.

Got it.

 

[JLB]

The New Testament GIVES to US the theology.

 

[grumix8]

Amen

 

[grumix8]

funny cartoon about freewill

amazing

 

[grumix8]

amazing robots talk about freewill

more cartoons about freewill

freewill cartoon

 

[Iconoclast]

Free will does not exist .
It is made up by carnal philosophy.
Men are bound by sin.
God is not the author of sin. Anyone who suggests such a profane thought is clueless to the max.
God is control of whatsoever comes to pass.