Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?

[grumix8]

Freewill is shown in the bible.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If you think about it, the question assumes free will is a construct man came up with either 1000s of years ago or recently. That it was assumed to be the case built into man like nails and tonsils isn’t considered.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God gave us freewill , he gave it in Eden if they did not have freewill fastfredy the devil could not of rebelled in heaven something I like not talking about. We can choose and the bible does say to choose to sin or to choose not to sin given people the choice.

The whole moral justice of God assumes or recognizes free will. Without free will the whole of life is a cruel farce.

 

[Iconoclast]

I'm sorry if you believe I do this Icon.
I really don't mean to.



OK. But they speak for Calvinism/Reformed.
So why call yourself that?
Even the Confessions state that God created evil.
I could look it up again but it's really late here right now.



But then why say that GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS?



You just did it again !
1. God does not force people to sin.
2. Nothing takes place outside God's control.

??
It's conflicting !



What do you want me to learn?
Because God kept him from sinning with her?

This just proves my point that you believe God manages everything.




Oh. I see where you're going with this.
I've told you this before.
In the OT many things that just happened are attributed to God.
They were monotheistic unlike the civilizations around them and they saw God even in what He PERHAPS did not even do.



NO!
Calvinists/Reformed are those that are taught that God created evil and uses it.
God IS NOT the author of sin.




What do you think should SINK IN?
That's how I feel about YOU!

You must be tired, these responses make no sense, rev.6 is from the nt.
Amos is inspired by God, not folk lore.Get some rest.

 

[Iconoclast]

God gave us freewill , he gave it in Eden if they did not have freewill fastfredy the devil could not of rebelled in heaven something I like not talking about. We can choose and the bible does say to choose to sin or to choose not to sin given people the choice.

choosing does not teach anything about a free will. A person with self will makes choices all the time.

 

[GodsGrace]

Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?​

Free Will is a lie that is easily proven so.
Free Will defined as: the decision of all individuals to believe salvificly outside of the control/influence of others.

Premise 1: There are 3 billion people who never heard of Christ -see https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...lion.who.have.never.heard.of.jesus/136398.htm
Premise 2: One must know of Christ to be saved (John 3:18)
Conclusion: Free will is impossible to at least 25%

Premise 1: Approximately 25% of individuals do not reach the age of accountability due to abortions, sickness, miscarriages, war, etc.
Conclusion: Free will is impossible for all these people

Premise 1: Children have a great tendency to be of the same religion as their parent(s) ... see https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/
Conclusion: The decision of people is very often not entirely their own which contradicts the concept of free will

Premise 1: Free Will is not found in the bible
Conclusion: Free Will is not biblical. ... like "dah".

You've come up with a new definition of free will.

Yeah FF....free will is soooooooooo difficult to understand.
We need a new definition every now and then.

 

[GodsGrace]

You must be tired, these responses make no sense, rev.6 is from the nt.
Amos is inspired by God, not folk lore.Get some rest.

Never too tired for you Icon.

My responses make sense, you just don't like them.

I NEVER said the OT is folklore.
Maybe YOUR tired?

How about Revelation 3:20.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
IF anyone will open, He will sup with them.

That sounds like free will to me.
Jesus knocks...
It's up to US to open the door.

And if you're going to call yourself a Calvinist -
PLEASE learn calvinist/reformed teachings.
You seem to be sorely lacking.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Freewill is shown in the bible.

Easy to say. Impossible to show proof because it isn't there. Give us your Free Will verses. I doubt you can even give a definition of Free Will.
There, 2 easy challenges.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Easy to say. Impossible to show proof because it isn't there. Give us your Free Will verses. I doubt you can even give a definition of Free Will.
There, 2 easy challenges.

Can you give us a definition of what a woman is from the bible please? How about a definition of courage? How about a definition of faith? Do these therefore not exist?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The whole moral justice of God assumes or recognizes free will.

Exactly. People set up their version of how God must be 'fair' or whatever (you used 'cruel farce') and invent (you used the word ASSUME) Free Will.

Aside: Other invent universalism, purgatory, turning bread and water into parts of God at Mass, yahda, yahda, yahda ... people love to shape God's essence to match their perception of what God's must do in situations.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Exactly. People set up their version of how God must be 'fair' or whatever (you used 'cruel farce') and invent (you used the word ASSUME) Free Will.

Not at all. God has set in all
of us the understanding of justice. We didn’t make it up. And He IS just according to that standard.

Aside: Other invent universalism, purgatory, turning bread and water into parts of God at Mass, yahda, yahda, yahda ... people love to shape God's essence to match their perception of what God's must do in situations.

That there is false theology (or money) doesn’t mean there’s no true theology (or money.) Siting that A is false by no means establishes all is false. That’s the error you are making.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Post 338 is proof that Free Will is a lie ... no one has explained why my proof is invalid ...not surprised.
Review: I showed that roughly 1/2 the population of the planet does not have free will and that the others show an bias to follow what their parents taught them.

Premise 1: Free Will means you can chose A or B
Premise 2: If one is able to chose freely (without external influence) that like a coin, half the time it will be heads and half the time tails
Premise 3: Narrow is the way and few that find it
Conclusion: Our WILL to choose God salvaficly is not FREE ... something/someone has their finger on the proverbial scale

 

[Iconoclast]

Never too tired for you Icon.

My responses make sense, you just don't like them.

I NEVER said the OT is folklore.
Maybe YOUR tired?

How about Revelation 3:20.
Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
IF anyone will open, He will sup with them.

That sounds like free will to me.
Jesus knocks...
It's up to US to open the door.

And if you're going to call yourself a Calvinist -
PLEASE learn calvinist/reformed teachings.
You seem to be sorely lacking.

ok, now I will use your post as an example of what not to do.

 

[Iconoclast]

God used it for good.
ALL Christians believe this.

What YOU said is that God is causing the sin because He has full control over everything that happens.
We've been through this before and you either need to change your language OR accept that you believe in a faith that states that God created even evil and USES IT to His own pleasure.

Do I need to post John Calvin again?
Or MacArthur again?
Or Piper again?

I'm sorry if you believe I do this Icon.
I really don't mean to.



OK. But they speak for Calvinism/Reformed.
So why call yourself that?
Even the Confessions state that God created evil.
I could look it up again but it's really late here right now.



But then why say that GOD CONTROLS EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS?



You just did it again !
1. God does not force people to sin.
2. Nothing takes place outside God's control.

??
It's conflicting !



What do you want me to learn?

Hello W, If you learned what any of the verses mean that would help.

Because God kept him from sinning with her?

You question if God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass. In this account of gen20, anyone with any degree of biblical understanding would see not only that God being omniscient is aware of all sin, but can step in and prevent it at anytime if he wanted to. You choose to make as if that is not obvious,, then wonder why you remain in the dark biblically.

This just proves my point that you believe God manages everything.

It did not prove any point as I have posted many times that God controls every single particle in the universe.
I believe the confessional truth that millions of others believe, that the biblical God is in control of whatsoever comes to pass, and that He does so without being the author of sin.You cannot welcome that truth, because evidently God has not allowed you to do that.

Oh. I see where you're going with this.

No you do not, you remain spiritually blind as a bat. You miss it by a mile.

I've told you this before.
In the OT many things that just happened are attributed to God.

In the book of Amos, it is the inspired word of God, for you to suggest otherwise is dumb, and unbiblical.That is a direct inspired statement from Amos, not some casual, mistaken attributing of something random to God. Such carnal reasoning keeps you and anyone who follows in these footsteps ignornat of truth. As you turn from scriptural light you find darkness.

They were monotheistic unlike the civilizations around them and they saw God even in what He PERHAPS did not even do.

The text is the word of God written says God did do it, as did all of chapter 4. Why do you attempt to read the bible if you are not believing it is the inspired word of God 100%?
Amos4:
6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered.
9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew:
I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.

11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the Lord.
God did these things, all of them! They were not attributed to Him unjustly as you suggest

NO!
Calvinists/Reformed are those that are taught that God created evil and uses it.

We believe isa.45:7, do you?7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God IS NOT the author of sin.

No he cannot be, and that is exactly what the confession of faith of all mainstream Calvinists teach, to any with understanding.

What do you think should SINK IN?

The truths of scripture offered to you should sink in, if you consider what God has actually revealed, rather than your foolish quest to avoid and brush aside the truth offered to you.

That's how I feel about YOU!

You owe me a tray of eggplant parmigiana, for making me repeat myself

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Post 338 is proof that Free Will is a lie ... no one has explained why my proof is invalid ...not surprised.

Another case of “no one showing you” something obvious?

Review: I showed that roughly 1/2 the population of the planet does not have free will and that the others show a bias to follow what their parents taught them.

If 50% have free will, then free will is not a myth and you’ve established that, thank you. Showing a bias is free will as that is freely chosen. Besides, 50% don’t follow their parents.

Premise 1: Free Will means you can chose A or B

or C or D or E or none or all

Premise 2: If one is able to chose freely (without external influence) that like a coin, half the time it will be heads and half the time tails

Being without influence is your personal definition and does not match the rest of the world

Premise 3: Narrow is the way and few that find it
Conclusion: Our WILL to choose God salvaficly is not FREE ... something/someone has their finger on the proverbial scale

There is no logical connection between the two. In some places, few find a way to live and avoid habits that kill them. Does not mean there were unable to freely choose that lifestyle.

Is freewill biblical or something the modern world invented ?​

Free Will is a lie that is easily proven so.
Free Will defined as: the decision of all individuals to believe salvificly outside of the control/influence of others.

That is not what free will is and no one thinks this is the definition except those who have decided of their free will to redefine to be something that is a lie. Free will is the ability moral beings have (man and angels) to make choices among options choosing what, if anything, will have influence over that choice. And we just need ONE example to establish this because "no free will" as you believe means NO ONE ON THE PLANET EVER MAKES A CHOICE FREELY. So I just need one example to prove you wrong.

Premise 1: There are 3 billion people who never heard of Christ -see https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...lion.who.have.never.heard.of.jesus/136398.htm

There are billions of people who never heard of tacos, seen a live kangaroo, were chased by a shark or ate moose. So?

Premise 2: One must know of Christ to be saved (John 3:18)
Conclusion: Free will is impossible to at least 25%

Now the fallacy is you are locked into is thinking that because a choice or two is not yet available, those people have no internal ability to choose anything at all in life. Who is making them choose as they do you cannot establish, but SOMEONE else is controlling them. Who is that and what evidence do you have for this?

Premise 1: Approximately 25% of individuals do not reach the age of accountability due to abortions, sickness, miscarriages, war, etc.
Conclusion: Free will is impossible for all these people

There are people born who cannot see. There are people born who cannot here. They are people born with no legs or arms. Does that mean they are no longer humans? Having the ability to make moral choices (among others) from options is intact in man. That a man is in a coma does not mean there is no free will in the universe. All the others, 75% of them reach the age of accountability and are therefore making free will choices.

Premise 1: Children have a great tendency to be of the same religion as their parent(s) ... see https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/

All those who are not, establish that there is free will. The decline of Christianity in the west show us that there is free will. IN fact, just one person who does not choose the same faith as their parents establishes the fact of free will and there are those in the population who do this according to you. Free will is proven.

Conclusion: The decision of people is very often not entirely their own which contradicts the concept of free will

Your definition of free will is personal so that you can attack that straw man. You decide to define it as something no one thinks it is, a straw man argument.

Premise 1: Free Will is not found in the bible
Conclusion: Free Will is not biblical. ... like "dah".

Free will is found everywhere in the Bible from God telling Adam to CHOOSE or NOT CHOOSE to Revelation where people will be judged for their choices made freely.

This was really easy to disprove but I know it will be received with eyes closed and "you do not see it."

 

[Iconoclast]

Except no one verse says it

 

[GodsGrace]

No, you do not "believe it"...God used it for good,YES...Does the text say, God made these wicked men do it, they did not want to, but God forced them to do it, NO

Correct. The text did not say that God caused those evil men to do what they did to their brother.
It's CALVINISM that states that God uses evil for His own pleasure.
You don't seem to understand that YOU do not invent the reformed faith.
It has already been invented by some persons.
You just have to believe it or not.
Seems to me that you do not believe it.
Maybe you should come over to this side of the fence?

Show any post where I said God caused men to sin??? A direct quote, not your failed understanding of what I posted.

I never said YOU said God causes men to sin...
I stated that Calvinism/Reformed believe that God CAUSES men to sin.

God is in control of all that happens, or He is not God! You do not grasp this! Did God control Satan in the book of JOB? Did He tell Satan , no, you cannot do anything to him, but Satan did it anyway?

So if God is in control of everything that happens, doesn't this mean that He causes sin to happen?
Is sin a part of EVERYTHING or not?
If God told satan not to do anything, and satan did it anyway,
HOW DOES THAT PUT GOD IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING??

I see confusion in you.

Evil existed before the fall Gen 2:17

You did not understand him the first 10 times you posted it, and misrepresented the others also. Try sticking to scripture.

How about Amos?
6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

There you go again...
Not agreeing with Calvinism.


What is it about the below that I did not understand?

GOD CAUSES EVIL:

RC Sproul

John Piper, the same person who says God directs even the dust in the air, says God does not lure persons with temptation....well, by jove, then where does the luring come from??!!

To explain why God creatged evil, the Reformed have developed the idea of the TWO WILLS OF GOD. Funny stuff.

James White, a hero of Calvinism, agrees that God decreed that children get raped:

John MacArthur states that God is HAPPY to be known as the One who created evil.

 

[Iconoclast]

So if God is in control of everything that happens, doesn't this mean that He causes sin to happen?
Is sin a part of EVERYTHING or not?

Someone can control something, without being the cause of the problem. It does not mean God caused it.
You are not making any sense at all.

If God told satan not to do anything, and satan did it anyway,

God did not tell Satan not to do anything?

HOW DOES THAT PUT GOD IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING??

Here is a major problem once again. You cannot read accurately or you intentionally mis state truth to twist a point. Here is what God said;
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

God forbid Satan from taking Job's life. He could do anything else to him, but not his life. Which is it?
Did you not understand this? Or are you twisting it on purpose?

I see confusion in you.

The only confusion is from your keyboard. James White is 100% accurate that when such evil events occur, they were ordained to take place. In fact, they could not take place unless they were ordained to take place. If you do not understand this, which looks to be the case, you cannot come to truth here.
Explain how something can take place outside of God's knowledge and control???
How does something sneak past an all knowing God.???

 

[Fastfredy0]

Here is a major problem once again. You {@wondering] cannot read accurately or you intentionally mis state truth to twist a point.

Amen. She's at it again. Won't define Free Will, rarely uses scripture and misquotes others rather than quote God to support her R.C. case.

Again .. no one disputes that I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt the approx. 1/2 the world does not have 'free will' ... either because as adults they died and never heard of Christ .... or died too young to have heard of Christ.
Aside: Of course, some preach another gospel to ineptly try to explain things like: another chance after death, purgatory, another gospel of salvation that doesn't need knowledge of Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am a mainstream Calvinist which you do not recognize because you do not quite get it. You claim you do, but you do not. I understand the wording of the confession of faith, you do not; watch again;

OK
Let's use the confession of faith and see if we could make sense of it.
Looks like you're using the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Fine. Anyway they're all the same.

Chapter 3 Of God’s Decree
1 God hath a decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;
yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin
nor hath fellowship with any therein;

So...
God has decreed all things to happen , WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS.
WHATSOEVER COMES TO PASS...
WHATSOEVER,

Yet He is not the author of sin
nor has He fellowship with sin.

I could whip out Book 3 of John Calvin where he states that God created even evil for His own pleasure...
but I believe it's sufficient to stay with the Confession.

Please read the above again....
It could STATE that God has nothing to do with sin...

BUT

IF God created everything and has decreed EVERYTHING THAT COMES TO PASS...
well I do believe this means that God created even evil and sin and MAKES EVERYTHING COME TO PASS,
even the rape of small children as one of your heroes stated in my last post.
I believe it was James White.

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature,
nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;

Wow. This says that violence is not offered to man,
and second causes are not taken away BUT ESTABLISHED.
God even establishes the second causes of evil....
but yet, you do not associate Him with evil.

Much confusion here.

in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness d in accomplishing his decree. ( a Isa 46:10; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17; Rom 9:15,18; b Jam 1:13; 1Jo 1:5; c Act 4:27-28; Joh 19:11; d Num 23:19; Eph 1:3-5) 2 Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions,
yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions. ( e Act 15:18; f Rom 9:11,13,16,18)

Yes. You do not have to post verses trying to convince me that calvinists/reformed believe that God causes everything to happen. I know this,,,,it seems to be you that cannot accept this, yet you keep posting it.

Very odd indeed.

You do not understand or agree with this. I DO.
You violate these truths on a daily basis.
I explain that to you and you take offense and suggest I change my wording.


I am, just not one you can stuff into defective explanations of it.

What I stated is that if you do not agree with Calvinism and try to protect God
from their belief that HE created evil and causes it to happen, then I suggested that you change your religious affiliation.