Is Jesus considered to be God?

[follower of Christ]

And as I suggested earlier...I guess you have nothing else to do and will drag this off topic point out for another dozen pages...

Inevitability....its so predictable....


.

 

[follower of Christ]

You are clearly indicating I am in sin because I don't believe in trinity.

Wrong gent. That comment had nothing to do with you as far as I am concerned.
You certainly seem to have a guilt complex.

Churches are not my Lord, Jesus is.
Just because you believe your understanding of Paul is right, that does not make it so, my friend.

Sorry but I think the game here is pretty much done.
The scriptures say what they say and in complete context and harmony.
Unless you can refute my views, which apparently you cant, I believe our derailment of this thread needs to come to an end, dont you ?

 

[shad]

Wrong gent. That comment had nothing to do with you as far as I am concerned.
You certainly seem to have a guilt complex.

I dont have anything to feel guilty about because I dont approve of killing enemies like most trinitarian churches do.

Sorry but I think the game here is pretty much done.

Yes, let's just wait on Jesus' judgment.


.

 

[Only Good News]

u

 

[follower of Christ]

I dont have anything to feel guilty about because I dont approve of killing enemies like most trinitarian churches do.

Dude, I have no clue what absurd nonsense youre even talking about.
Ive been in churches that believe in trinity my whole life, and of a number of denominations, and NO ONE has ever advocated or even mentioned anything of the sort.
Maybe you need to come back down to reality.

Yes, let's just wait on Jesus' judgment.
.

For final judgment yes.

It is actually heard that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife! And you are puffed up, and have not rather grieved, so that he who did this deed would be removed from your midst.
(1 Corinthians 5:1-2 EMTV)



I wrote to you in my epistle not to associate with fornicators.
Yet I certainly did not mean with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world!

But now I write to you not to associate with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous person, or an idolater, or abusive person, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a person.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside?
Do you not judge those who are inside?
But those who are outside God will judge.
Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13 EMTV)

This has nothing to do with final judgment.
Its about separating from sin.
Its telling that you cant seem to tell the difference

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Nor does this have to do with final judgment.

After the first and second warning, reject a man of heresy,
(Titus 3:10 MKJV)

G141
?????????
aihretikos
Thayer Definition:
1) fitted or able to take or choose a thing
2) schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine
3) heretic

Its about getting the leaven out of the assembly.
Again, its telling that you equate either of these with final judgment.

.

 

[Only Good News]

Is Jesus considered to be God? Sorry to bump in the middle of a subject matter but wanted to chime in with the following.
This would be my understanding of the One True Lord.

It is necessary for us to understand that the GOD of the Bible is pure SPIRIT, and
that he (the FATHER) must be Worshiped in Spirit and Truth. (John 4:24) and that he appeared once as a pure man JESUS CHRIST (John1:1,14,18, He had no inhibitions in claiming his Identity (John 8:58,10:30) and he did not hesitate to say, If ye believe not that I AM (Greek Ego eimi, Christ’s expression for his eternal deity), ye shall die in your sins, for whither I go ye cannot come. (Joh 8:24,21) (Exo 3:14)

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the KINGDOM. (1Cor15:50) The reason no man has seen the Father.
The Apostle John testified that Jesus made himself Equal with GOD as GOD (Joh 5:18)

The Apostle Thomas worshiped Jesus as the living GOD in human flesh (John 20:28)
Jesus (as the lamb) claims the Fathers throne in the eternity (Rev 22:3)

Gods claim there are no gods of like kind. (Isa 46:9) There have never been god like beings.

Classic Judaism condemned the worship of any other gods (Exo20:1,2,3,4,5)
This fact was amplified by Paul in (1Cor8:4,5,6)

Paul underscores this once again in (Gal3:20) and points out In (Gal4:8) by worshiping
Satan they were not worshiping deity at all.

The Nature of God is Eternal (Psa90:2, Mal3:6, Exo3:14,15; as well as in Isa43:10) Note
Isaiah points out that no god was formed before him or after him. Leaving no room for little gods like him.

He continues in (isa44:6) I AM the first and I am the last and beside me there is no god.
Alpha and Omega (the first and last letters in the Greek alphabet) can be traced in the book of Revelation Ch1 thru 21 in Ch22 Jesus is in eternal union as Father.

The Apostle Paul reminds us this same ONE JESUS offered himself through the ONE same eternal Spirit.(Heb9:14)

Pharaoh believed Mosses was a god. (Exo7:1) It would be perfectly natural for a pagan King (who was polytheistic) to see the miracles performed by Mosses, as being a god.

Satan is designated the god of this world. (2Cor4:4)
The Judges of Isreal were called gods (Psa82:6) (Joh10:34)

However Satan is but a fallen angel, (isa14:12,14,15) and Moses was only a man.
With free will we may choose to adore and worship anything. Whether it be Money, Power, Family, Status, Business, Sex, Etc.
The fact this has been the practice through out mans history does not make those things that
are worshiped deity.

True Deity is all powerful (Rev1:8)
True Deity is all knowing (1Joh3:20)
True deity is Omnipresent (Psa139:7) (Act17:24,25,26,27) (Jer23:23,24)
True Deity is Eternal (Psa90:2) (Heb13:8)
True Deity is NOT MAN KIND.
Jeremiah haunts godhoodism Read (Jer10:10,11,12)

The very nature of many deities is contradictory to the Christian faith.

It is us who limits the:

ONE TRUE DEITY

 

[glorydaz]

Shad,

I've gone back quite a few pages and see you're catching a lot of flack.
I'm not sure why...except that you apparently don't see the trinity doctrine exactly like others might.
I view it a little differently than some do, as well, but that doesn't mean any man has the whole truth.
The mystery of God is not a matter of private interpretation...which is where "reasoning together" would be nice. You've kept your cool in spite of a great deal of judging...I, for one, would be interesting in hearing what it is you do believe.

 

[follower of Christ]

Shad,

I've gone back quite a few pages and see you're catching a lot of flack.
I'm not sure why...except that you apparently don't see the trinity doctrine exactly like others might.
I view it a little differently than some do, as well, but that doesn't mean any man has the whole truth.
The mystery of God is not a matter of private interpretation...which is where "reasoning together" would be nice. You've kept your cool in spite of a great deal of judging...I, for one, would be interesting in hearing what it is you do believe.

Now if shad would only lay off the off topic irrelevance that belongs in another thread we could get BACK to the trinity discussion...

 

[shad]

Shad,


The mystery of God is not a matter of private interpretation...which is where "reasoning together" would be nice. You've kept your cool in spite of a great deal of judging...I, for one, would be interesting in hearing what it is you do believe.

Thank you glorydaz,

I dont debate any doctrines but I can express how I reason with complicated ones.

I will be back with the Scriptures.

.

 

[shad]

Shad,

I've gone back quite a few pages and see you're catching a lot of flack.
I'm not sure why...except that you apparently don't see the trinity doctrine exactly like others might.
I view it a little differently than some do, as well, but that doesn't mean any man has the whole truth.
The mystery of God is not a matter of private interpretation...which is where "reasoning together" would be nice. You've kept your cool in spite of a great deal of judging...I, for one, would be interesting in hearing what it is you do believe.

Here you go glorydaz:

I dont believe in the doctrine of trinity because it does not harmonize with many other Scriptures. Such as:

John 5:19 (New International Version)
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Luke 18:19 (New International Version)
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 ESV

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Above Scriptures are clearly stating that Jesus and His Father are not equal; Jesus is completely submissive to His Father. If Jesus is as God and equal with His Father why does he have to be so submissive to His Father? I dont find any Scripture commenting the Father being submissive to Jesus, not even one.

I have many more similar ones.

 

[Free]

I dont believe in the doctrine of trinity because it does not harmonize with many other Scriptures. Such as:

But, again, none of these passages show the Trinity to be false and are not in disagreement with the doctrine of the Trinity. You do not understand it which is why you think these verses prove your point.

 

[follower of Christ]

John 5:19 (New International Version)
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Huh.
I see the Father and I see the Son. I dont see anything there that says Jesus isnt God
You must be reading something INTO the verse that isnt there.

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Again....I see the Father and I see the Son. I dont see anything there that says Jesus isnt God

Luke 18:19 (New International Version)
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

This is probably the ONLY verse in the entire NT that can be used against the Trinity.
The rest of the data is overwhelming that Jesus is God that I really dont think this one verse negates it.
If we assume youre 'interpretation' is correct, can we assume that you have to believe that Jesus, the perfect Lamb of God, isnt 'good' ?
I mean, if we're taking this one as absolute, then it seems that Jesus must have been a bad man, no ?

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 ESV

NOthing there that denies that Jesus is God.

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Again...NOthing there that denies that Jesus is God.

Above Scriptures are clearly stating that Jesus and His Father are not equal;

I think you should read them again.
ONly the one even remotely shows any difference and as far as we know Jesus could have been referring to His fleshly form or something.
IF Jesus wasnt 'good' then what was he, in your opinion ?

Jesus is completely submissive to His Father.

uh...yeah...and how does that negate that He is God the Son ?

If Jesus is as God and equal with His Father why does he have to be so submissive to His Father?

Because He chooses to

I dont find any Scripture commenting the Father being submissive to Jesus, not even one.

And what exactly does that prove

I have many more similar ones.

I hope theyre better than just 'similar'
These have proven nothing and are FAR worse than the CLEAR scriptures we have provided in this thread.

 

[follower of Christ]

I dont believe in the doctrine of trinity because it does not harmonize with many other Scriptures. Such as:

But, again, none of these passages show the Trinity to be false and are not in disagreement with the doctrine of the Trinity. You do not understand it which is why you think these verses prove your point.

Definitely concur.

.

 

[follower of Christ]

The Trinity
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that Jesus IS God and to show that the Holy Spirit IS God and therefore the Trinity teaching is scriptural truth.

Supporting Evidence

1.0
Is Jesus God ?

Isaiah shows us exactly who Jesus is.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

If Jesus isnt God, why doesnt He correct Thomas here as He had corrected others ?

And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God!
(Joh 20:28 MKJV)

If Jesus isnt His own person in the Godhead, then He must be a liar here because He shows that the FATHER knows the day and hour here, but the SON does not.

But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
(Mark 13:32 LITV)

*IF* Jesus isnt His own person then He would HAVE to know the day and hour and thus He would be a LIAR for saying that ONLY His Father knew, NOT the Son.


1.5

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
(Colossians 2:9 EMTV)


Godhead
G2320
??????
theot?s
Thayer Definition:
1) deity
1a) the state of being God, Godhead


G2320
??????
theot?s
theh-ot'-ace
From G2316; divinity (abstractly): - godhead.

REGARDLESS of how the word theotes was RENDERED, its MEANING and INTENT is 'divinity'...ie Jesus Christ is DIVINE...ie a DEITY....ie GOD.
If Jesus IS God yet Jesus does NOT KNOW the day and hour of His return but ONLY the Father does (aka GOD) then there MUST BE some DISTINCTION between them...even tho BOTH ARE God.


Is the Son 'God' ?

But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(Hebrews 1:8 MKJV)

G2316
????
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Oddly enough the Jews knew exactly what Jesus was saying...

Because of this the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but also He called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
(John 5:18 EMTV)

Is Jesus worthy of worship?

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
(Hebrews 1:6 EMTV)

Jesus The Creator

Who Created in the beginning ?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

God did.

For He has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son; in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins. who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.
For all things were created in Him, the things in the heavens, and the things on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers, all things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.
(Colossians 1:13-17 MKJV)

All things were created in Him...all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible..all things were created THROUGH him and for Him.
Who is 'Him' in this passage ?
Sounds like 'His dear Son' to me.


2.0
Is the Holy Spirit 'God' ?

scripture shows that the Spirit of GOD came down upon Christ...

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him.
(Mat 3:16 EMTV)

And Luke shows that this IS the Holy Spirit.

and the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "You are My beloved Son; in You I have found delight."
(Luk 3:22 EMTV)

Thus the evidence shows that the 'Spirit of God' and the 'Holy Spirit' are one and the same.

3.0
And here we tie it all together.

And having been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon Him. And behold, a voice came out of the heavens, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I have found delight."
(Matthew 3:16-17 EMTV)

1. Jesus, the Son who is called 'Mighty God' in Isaiah.
2. The Spirit descending in the form of a dove, who is the Spirit OF God.
3. The Father speaking from heaven, obvious enough.

 

[glorydaz]

Here you go glorydaz:

I dont believe in the doctrine of trinity because it does not harmonize with many other Scriptures. Such as:

John 5:19 (New International Version)
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

John 14:28 (New International Version)
28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Luke 18:19 (New International Version)
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. John 17:3 ESV

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

Above Scriptures are clearly stating that Jesus and His Father are not equal; Jesus is completely submissive to His Father. If Jesus is as God and equal with His Father why does he have to be so submissive to His Father? I dont find any Scripture commenting the Father being submissive to Jesus, not even one.

I have many more similar ones.

Ah, you see Jesus as a man, and He was. 100 percent human. At the same time, He was 100 percent God. God became flesh and dwelt among us. While He was in the flesh, as man, He was, indeed, in subjection to the Father. A lot of people want to keep Him in the flesh, instead of realizing that He put on His divine nature again when He ascended to the throne. My problem with the trinity doctrine is with the term "persons". I see One God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways. He came in the flesh, becoming the visible God, and left His Spirit to indwell us. I have scripture, too...let's share, shall we?

 

[Solo]

Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.[/color][/quote]

Question: Who was the "voice of him that crieth in the wilderness?"
Answer: John the Baptist.

Question:Who was the voice in the wilderness crying "prepare the way of the LORD" for? Answer:Jehovah.

Question:Who was the voice in the wilderness crying, "make straight in the desert a highway for?"
Answer: God.

Question:Who is the LORD and the GOD that John the Baptist was crying in the wilderness of?
Answer: Jesus Christ.

1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying , Repent ye : for the kingdom of heaven is at hand . 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying , The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, 6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. 7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come ? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying , I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized , went up straightway out of the water: and, lo , the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting u Matthew 3:1-16

4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying , The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled , and every mountain and hill shall be brought low ; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. 7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come ? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire. 10 And the people asked him, saying , What shall we do then? 11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. 12 Then came also publicans to be baptized , and said unto him, Master, what shall we do ? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying , And what shall we do ? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely ; and be content with your wages. 15 And as the people were in expectation , and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not; 16 John answered , saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh , the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose : he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. Luke 3:4-17

 

[shad]

Ah, you see Jesus as a man, and He was. 100 percent human. At the same time, He was 100 percent God. God became flesh and dwelt among us. While He was in the flesh, as man, He was, indeed, in subjection to the Father. A lot of people want to keep Him in the flesh, instead of realizing that He put on His divine nature again when He ascended to the throne. My problem with the trinity doctrine is with the term "persons". I see One God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways. He came in the flesh, becoming the visible God, and left His Spirit to indwell us. I have scripture, too...let's share, shall we?

Just a minute,

It seems that you want to debate the Scriptures, which I dont. I am a simple Christian and I dont try to read the Scriptures more than it says.

I dont believe in the Trinity and I showed you why. If you dont accept it then I cannot help you.

thank you.

 

[follower of Christ]

It seems that you want to debate the Scriptures, which I dont. I am a simple Christian and I dont try to read the Scriptures more than it says.

Youre joking, right ?
MOST of the passages you posted earlier dont say a thing about Trinity as far as denying it....you DID read something into them that wasnt there, friend.

I dont believe in the Trinity and I showed you why. If you dont accept it then I cannot help you.

thank you.

The evidence wasnt compelling in the least, save for one verse.
And if you use that verse 'as is' then we also have to conclude that Jesus isnt 'good' either.
The perfect, sinless Lamb of God and He isnt 'good' ?
Do you think maybe theres something in that verse that we arent undertanding as far as the INTENT goes ?

 

[glorydaz]

Ah, you see Jesus as a man, and He was. 100 percent human. At the same time, He was 100 percent God. God became flesh and dwelt among us. While He was in the flesh, as man, He was, indeed, in subjection to the Father. A lot of people want to keep Him in the flesh, instead of realizing that He put on His divine nature again when He ascended to the throne. My problem with the trinity doctrine is with the term "persons". I see One God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways. He came in the flesh, becoming the visible God, and left His Spirit to indwell us. I have scripture, too...let's share, shall we?

Just a minute,

It seems that you want to debate the Scriptures, which I dont. I am a simple Christian and I dont try to read the Scriptures more than it says.

I dont believe in the Trinity and I showed you why. If you dont accept it then I cannot help you.

thank you.

I'm not saying you have to believe in the trinity.
I'm just trying to figure out what you do believe.
Do you believe Jesus is just a man, then?