IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[WIP]

Amazing statement given your knowledge of the Bible!!!!

“You did not choose Me but I chose you" John 15:6

“Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you,” 1 Thessalonians 1:4

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30


This also is a view held by a minute minority. Even Arminians, state the works of salvation is synergistic meaning God and the person are involved in the work of salvation.


This is not a biblical argument. Deut. 29:29. It is anthropocentric logic trying to justify your ideas on the process of salvation.

Can you further explain the need for our Savior and the command to share the gospel? If our salvation is predestined why do we need to believe, and share the gospel? What is the value of it?

 

[GodsGrace]

• Psalm 139:16 All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster.
• Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
• Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
• Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
• Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
• Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
• Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have [a]received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
• 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
• 2 Timothy 1:9b [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].
• James 4:13-15 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."

Proverbs are proverbs.
Did you ever hear Man Proposes and God disposes?
That doesn't mean the person saying it agrees with Calvin.
The people in the O.T. believed in the One True God and gave Him credit for EVERYTHING...
both what He did and what He did not do. They loved Him and trusted Him and were happy
to be removed from the culture of polytheism and human sacrifice to gods they did not worship.
The Kings' heart is in the hand of the Lord....Really?
Have all Kings been good kings?
Then what could this possibly mean?

And all the peoples of the earth are as nothing?
The bible teaches that God loves His creation....
you cannot pluck out a verse here and there and make doctrine out of it.
The bible is a complete thought and must be understood that way.

So I'll counter with the following:

Isaiah 54:10
10“For the mountains may be removed and the hills may shake,
But My lovingkindness will not be removed from you,
And My covenant of peace will not be shaken,”
Says the LORD who has compassion on you.

Psalm 86:15
15But You, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious,
Slow to anger and abundant in loving kindness and truth.

Psalm 103:8
8The LORD is compassionate and gracious,
Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness.


Zephania 3:7
17“The LORD your God is in your midst,
A victorious warrior.
He will exult over you with joy,
He will be quiet in His love,
He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy.

Lamentations 3:22
22The LORD’S lovingkindnesses indeed never cease,
For His compassions never fail.



And as to the N.T.,

Acts 2:23: Did God not plan for our sins to be forgiven through the atonement of His Son? This verse is not valid.

Ephesisans 1:11
11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,

The book of Ephesians speaks of how we are IN CHRIST JESUS. Please read the entire book.
See 1:1

We are already seated in heavenly places because we are In Jesus. We enjoy a taste of heaven h ere on earth.
1:3

God chose us IN JESUS before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless.
1:4

God predestined us TO ADOPTION AS SONS through Jesus, and this was God's will for us.
1:5

IN HIM we have redemption through His blood.
1:7

He MADE KNOWN TO US the mystery of His will...according to His kind intention. (very few mysteries with God).
The mystery refers to God's grace being extended to all, and how His Kingdom will be.
1:9

God will gather us all together IN CHRIST when the time comes...as He planned our salvation after the fall.
1:10

We were chosen, predestined, to be In Christ as a heritage through Jesus' work on the cross. The inheritance through
Christ was predestined...not the person.
1:11

******************************************************************

1 Corinthians 2:7
7but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

And what is the hidden mystery?
God's plan of salvation which was planned by Him before the beginning of the world because He KNEW
man would sin and so God made a solution.
1 Peter 1:18 we have been redeemed (bought back) by Jesus' blood.

**************************************************

2 Timothy 1:9
9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

If you just keep reading, you'll find the explanation for the above:

10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

**********************************************

James 4:13-15
13Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit.”
14Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away.
15Instead, you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and also do this or that.” 16But as it is, you boast in your arrogance; all such boasting is evil.

FF, please notice context when posting scripture.
The above is speaking about behaving like real Christians that are to consider God when making their plans.
Verse 15 states that we are always to say if the Lord wills...and this is true. God knows our future, but we do not.
And everything that happens, does so because God allows it and it is His will.

Now could you please explain the verses I list for YOU?
Perhaps you cannot??

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Amazing statement given your knowledge of the Bible!!!!

“You did not choose Me but I chose you" John 15:6

“Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you,” 1 Thessalonians 1:4

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30


This also is a view held by a minute minority. Even Arminians, state the works of salvation is synergistic meaning God and the person are involved in the work of salvation.


This is not a biblical argument. Deut. 29:29. It is anthropocentric logic trying to justify your ideas on the process of salvation.

So you are saying that if God chose you, then you have nothing to do about it.
You have no say in the matter.
You don't have to be born again because God chose you, end of story.;
What an odd way to interpret Scripture.
The good news (Gospel) for you is that God chose you to be in heaven with him for all eternity before you were even born.
So what's the sense in being born in the first place.
Is this purgatory?
Why do we suffer if God chose us before hand to be in heaven when we die?
Why do we have to die if we are chosen by God before hand?
Why not just create us in heaven?
Otherwise, it looks like he wants us to suffer for a while then he takes us to heaven.
We really have no purpose here on earth, do we?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Can you further explain the need for our Savior and the command to share the gospel?

Because it is a commandment of God and we are to obey Him. (Matt. 16:15, Great Commission) God has also predestined the method of salvation.

If our salvation is predestined why do we need to believe, and share the gospel?

Faith is the instrument of salvation that God has predetermined to be part of the process by which we are saved. Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith.
I answered the second part above.

MY TURN
The question at hand is: Is man free to choose (unfortunately, the question wasn't well defined, so I have to ask for definitions be asking questions to ensure we are talking about the same thing.

RE: Is man free to choose

Does "man" mean ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION? If not, which men are excluded in the question?

Define "free". Is this the same are the definition of "libertarian free will" and if so, how do you define "libertarian free will"?

Define choose. I assume this means to decide to believe in such a way as to receive salvation, but you tell me.

With this I will know what you mean in regards to the thread.
(Aside: I could answer YES or NO to the thread depending on what the ambiguous question means)

​

 

[for_his_glory]

There is way to much assuming what others mean and is causing division among the members. Many are forgetting the ToS 1.1 and 1.3 which I suggest everyone to go back and read.

No one wins by arguing what they deem as factual even if they give a few scriptures as we need to take those scriptures given and search out the full context for truth. So many say, well my church or my pastor teaches this or that. Are we to believe in what they say, or should we be searching and studying the scriptures they use so we will not be deceived by another gospel being taught.

I see a lot of tension and miscommunication through out this thread and it needs to stop. Everyone has a view, a thought and an opinion. Let's respect each other even though we might not agree with each other.

This topic has always brought out the worst in some and if this continues this thread will be closed. Let's approach this topic as mature adults within our disagreements and no longer second guess, but ask what another member means by their reply as in explaining what they post.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you are saying that if God chose you, then you have nothing to do about it.
You have no say in the matter.
You don't have to be born again because God chose you, end of story.;
What an odd way to interpret Scripture.

It is odd .. .and it is not the way I understand scripture.

So what's the sense in being born in the first place.
Is this purgatory?

This is not purgatory. That is a Roman Catholic construction that is not biblical. I would think you should know that.

Why do we suffer if God chose us before hand to be in heaven when we die?

Sin nature, original sin, God's predestination, God's decree(plan), for discipline, pruning, at time demonstration (why was this man born blind, for God's Glory, yahda, yahda, yahda

Why do we have to die if we are chosen by God before hand?

The penalty for sin is death. It is appointed to use to die once. (exception: Enoch, Elijah, those alive at the rapture )

Why not just create us in heaven?

The Glory of God. Deut. 29:29

Otherwise, it looks like he wants us to suffer for a while then he takes us to heaven.

Empirical evidence substantiates this premise.

We really have no purpose here on earth, do we?

Man's purpose is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. God determines our purpose, not man's anthropocentric ideas on how destiny should unfold to glorify man.

 

[jasonc]

im not a reformed 5 Pointer
1. my church leadership preaches that we are to obey
2.in witnessing the use of the word to choose to repent is given
3.those who don't repent are offered the chance ,per Romans one
4.I got confused ,easy to do with the idea given by wondering in how she assumes or believes the reformed teach no will or how they teach on Romans 9.

 

[WIP]

Because it is a commandment of God and we are to obey Him. (Matt. 16:15, Great Commission) God has also predestined the method of salvation.


Faith is the instrument of salvation that God has predetermined to be part of the process by which we are saved. Galatians 2:16 Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith.
I answered the second part above.

MY TURN
The question at hand is: Is man free to choose (unfortunately, the question wasn't well defined, so I have to ask for definitions be asking questions to ensure we are talking about the same thing.

RE: Is man free to choose

Does "man" mean ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION? If not, which men are excluded in the question?

Define "free". Is this the same are the definition of "libertarian free will" and if so, how do you define "libertarian free will"?

Define choose. I assume this means to decide to believe in such a way as to receive salvation, but you tell me.

With this I will know what you mean in regards to the thread.
(Aside: I could answer YES or NO to the thread depending on what the ambiguous question means)

​

I'm still confused. You haven't really explained why God would command that we share the gospel or why God would require Him to come in human form to die for our redemption.

I know you said that it is because God said so and I'm okay with that for I don't need God to explain it to me but I'm asking for you to apologetically explain it for me.

Maybe one day it could help me explain it to a nonbeliever when he/she asks me that same question?

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I'm still confused. You haven't really explained why God would command that we share the gospel or why God would require Him to come in human form to die for our redemption.

I know you said that it is because God said so and I'm okay with that for I don't need God to explain it to me but I'm asking for you to apologetically explain it for me.

Maybe one day it could help me explain it to a nonbeliever when he/she asks me that same question?

WIP
I'm one who likes to study things out for myself.
There are so many different opinions here, you could throw a dart to pick one .

May I suggest that you study it out for yourself and find a conclusion that comes from God.
According to scripture, we are to seek out the truth from scripture on our own, as the Bereans did in the book of Acts.
Man has a myriad of options to choose from, but God only has one truth, and He doesn't twist His meanings around either or confuse you as man does. False teachers are everywhere.
Yes, it's much more work, but you can be assured of the CORRECT TRUTH, and feel confident in your salvation and knowledge for the sake of others you talk to.

 

[WIP]

This is what I believe and how I am able to reconcile both sides of this question.

God may predestine some for salvation. He can choose them before they are even born but this is not always true all of the time. Some, or dare I say most, are not predestined by God but are called later as they respond to the gospel with help from the Holy Spirit. It is for this reason that a Savior is needed and why we need to share the gospel. We do not know if those we witness to have been predestined and it is not for us to know. Our task is to share the good news and introduce others to the Lord.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You haven't really explained why God would command that we share the gospel

Well, the why God does this or that, I don't know. I know His ultimate purpose to His glory and His pleasure (I can supply verses if needed).
Specifically, why we share the gospel is because God decided to use us as 2nd causes in spreading the gospel. (Law of Causality) "Faith cometh by hearing", and God for whatever reason has given us the task of spreading the gospel.
Pertaining to the ambiguous question at hand (IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE):
If God wanted everyone to hear the gospel, then He would find a way to ensure everyone does.
Since:

1. 2 billion people today have not heard the gospel (source Google) and since
2. faith cometh by hearing and since
3. one can only be saved by faith

Conclusion: God does not wish those people to be saved; those people did not have a choose. Thus the answer to the thread IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE is NO ... unless one qualifies the question so as to be understood in another way

Maybe one day it could help me explain it to a nonbeliever when he/she asks me that same question?

Well, I think your mind is pretty well made up so I doubt you will convey my thoughts.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is what I believe and how I am able to reconcile both sides of this question.

God may predestine some for salvation. He can choose them before they are even born but this is not always true all of the time. Some, or dare I say most, are not predestined by God but are called later as they respond to the gospel with help from the Holy Spirit. It is for this reason that a Savior is needed and why we need to share the gospel. We do not know if those we witness to have been predestined and it is not for us to know. Our task is to share the good news and introduce others to the Lord.

Why would God predestine some?

 

[jasonc]

https://jasoncran.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F641485799617069056

a bit of humour while posting here ,I turn on this meter

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

WIP
With all the differing opinions about most everything biblical that we could possibly discuss, I love 1st Cor. 13:13, "And now faith, hope, and LOVE, and the GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

I love that LOVE over-rides everything, including what we think about anything and everything.
We are to speak in love ALWAYS from a HEART OF LOVE ALWAYS, and with an ATTITUDE OF LOVE - ALWAYS.

The importance of love is ASTOUNDING, and so few believers get that and apply it in their daily lives as a gift from God to the world.
LOVE IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO THE WHOLE WORLD, and the church simply doesn't get it.
Most here simply don't get it that - LOVE IS EVERYTHING to GOD

At the end of our days, we will all be wrong about some things we believed in to be true with all our hearts from studying, but God says that if we loved Him and all his creation (man) GOD'S WAY, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, "to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbors as ourselves, that LOVE GOD"S WAY will save us.
Love can save us when nothing else can in our faith.
Not wisdom, not knowledge, not understanding.
Scripture 1st Corinthians 13 says;


13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Day after day new people come here with all their gifts of knowledge wrapped up in a pretty bow for all of us to be amazed by their wisdom and correctness that will astound us, and have no qualms about attacking anyone who would dare disagree or offer a second opinion, but WHERE IS THE LOVE?
It seems that LOVE has simply become IRRELEVANT and OBSOLETE in our world of incredible HATEFULNESS and CAUSTIC SARCASM.
NO LOVE.
NO KINDNESS.
NO RESPECT
Just antagonistic arrogance and egotism.
WHERE'S THE LOVE???

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm one who likes to study things out for myself.
There are so many different opinions here, you could throw a dart to pick one .

May I suggest that you study it out for yourself and find a conclusion that comes from God.
According to scripture, we are to seek out the truth from scripture on our own, as the Bereans did in the book of Acts.
Man has a myriad of options to choose from, but God only has one truth, and He doesn't twist His meanings around either or confuse you as man does. False teachers are everywhere.
Yes, it's much more work, but you can be assured of the CORRECT TRUTH, and feel confident in your salvation and knowledge for the sake of others you talk to.

Agreed. Only one truth and Deut. 29:29 (the truth is not given)
Probably no one has all TRUTH, but everyone thinks they are closest because they're errors is hidden from themselves for various reasons. (bias, lack of knowledge, sin native, lack of training, lack of God's gift of understanding, ...

The bible is an unorganized book. The Bereans were wise. Proverbs 11:14 Without counsels do a people fall, And deliverance [is] in a multitude of counsellors.

Many counsels can be found in Systematic Theology books. One will find that they agree with each other (I say 95% of the time assuming they are protestants). Read from people of different persuasions ... compare ... ignore anything not backed up by scripture. When an interpretation of one scripture conflicts with another scripture, seek another interpretation).
Aside: Everyone's mind is already biased

Here is a list of authors of different persuasions.
1. Anglican (Episcopalian)
1882– 92 Litton, 1– 8
1930 Thomas, xvii– xxviii, 146– 52

2. Arminian (Wesleyan or Methodist)
1875– 76 Pope, 1: 3– 32, 42– 46
1892– 94 Miley, 1: 2– 54 1940 Wiley, 1: 13– 123
1960 Purkiser, 19– 38
1983 Carter, 1: 19– 101
1987– 90 Oden, 1: 11– 14, 375– 406

Baptist
1767 Gill, 1: vii– xxx
1887 Boyce, 1– 8
1907 Strong, 1– 51 1917 Mullins, 1– 136
1976– 83 Henry, 1: 13– 411; 6: 7– 34
1983– 85 Erickson, 9– 149
1987– 94 Lewis/ Demarest, 1: 13– 123

Dispensational
1947 Chafer, 1: 3– 17
1949 Thiessen, 1– 20 (Aside: OzSpen gave me a link to this one. Thiessen is IMO Arminian. http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/PDF Books/00045 Thiessen Lectures in Systematic Theology.pdf )
1986 Ryrie, 9– 22

5. Lutheran
1917– 24 Pieper, 1: 3– 190
1934 Mueller, 1– 89 6.

Reformed (or Presbyterian) 12 (These guys got it right ... just teasing ... my bias)
1559 Calvin, 1: 3– 33, 35– 43 (prefaces and 1.1– 2)
1724– 58 Edwards, 2: 157– 63
1861 Heppe, 1– 11, 42– 47
1871– 73 Hodge, 1: 1– 150
1878 Dabney, 133– 44 1887–
1921 Warfield, SSW, 2: 207– 320
1889 Shedd, 1: 3– 58; 3: 1– 26
1937– 66 Murray, CW, 1: 3– 8, 169– 73; CW, 4: 1– 21
1938 Berkhof, Intro., 15– 128, 170– 86 1962 Buswell, 1: 13– 26
1962 Buswell, 1: 13– 26

Renewal (or charismatic/ Pentecostal)
1988– 92 Williams, 1: 11– 28

Sections in Representative Roman Catholic Systematic Theologies
1. Roman Catholic: Traditional 1955 Ott, 1– 10 2.
Roman Catholic: Post-Vatican II 1980 McBrien, 1: 3– 78, 183– 200

List provided by Grudem, Wayne A.. Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Cómo Entender) (p. 40). Zondervan. Kindle Edition.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Why would God predestine some?

Why would God not predestine some? LOL

A mother aborts her baby.
Did the baby control its presence in heaven or hell ? (Surely not)

Did the mother control the babies presence in heaven or hell ? Did the mother control her decision to abort? Was it "libertarian free will" that determined the abortion ( the ability to chose "A" or "B" given the same circumstances)

Did the God predestine the babies presence in heaven or hell ? Does God have "libertarian free will" ( the ability to chose "A" or "B" given the same circumstances)? Do you answer that question based on man have "libertarian free will" and being made in God's image? Is God's plan dependent upon man's decisions and thus man controls God to some degree? How is God glorified (I share my glory with no one) by man's "libertarian free will" that controls whether or no God adopts him as a son? How is the adoption analogy applicable given adopt is the decision of the parent, yet in salvation via "libertarian free will" the child controls the process?

What decisions are controlled by "libertarian free will"?
What is the ultimate (first) cause of "libertarian free will"? Is it uncaused and thus eternal?

Aside: I love it when men think they determine their destiny.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

@Fastfredy0
With all the differing opinions about most everything biblical that we could possibly discuss, I love 1st Cor. 13:13, "And now faith, hope, and LOVE, and the GREATEST OF THESE IS LOVE.

I love that LOVE over-rides everything, including what we think about anything and everything.
We are to speak in love ALWAYS from a HEART OF LOVE ALWAYS, and with an ATTITUDE OF LOVE - ALWAYS.

The importance of love is ASTOUNDING, and so few believers get that and apply it in their daily lives as a gift from God to the world.
LOVE IS A GIFT FROM GOD TO THE WHOLE WORLD, and the church simply doesn't get it.
Most here simply don't get it that - LOVE IS EVERYTHING to GOD

At the end of our days, we will all be wrong about some things we believed in to be true with all our hearts from studying, but God says that if we loved Him and all his creation (man) GOD'S WAY, Mark 12:30, Luke 10:27, "to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and our neighbors as ourselves, that LOVE GOD"S WAY will save us.
Love can save us when nothing else can in our faith.
Not wisdom, not knowledge, not understanding.
Scripture 1st Corinthians 13 says;


13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Day after day new people come here with all their gifts of knowledge wrapped up in a pretty bow for all of us to be amazed by their wisdom and correctness that will astound us, and have no qualms about attacking anyone who would dare disagree or offer a second opinion, but WHERE IS THE LOVE?
It seems that LOVE has simply become IRRELEVANT and OBSOLETE in our world of incredible HATEFULNESS and CAUSTIC SARCASM.
NO LOVE.
NO KINDNESS.
NO RESPECT
Just antagonistic arrogance and egotism.
WHERE'S THE LOVE???

Seasoned by Grace

 

[daninthelionsden]

I have no hope of debating on this thread as you spiritually advanced ones do, but I sure do enjoy the diverse opinions of thought. It reminds me of how the Jews say God is so much more than our minds can conceive or our words can describe. I love how man wants so badly to understand God. It gives me faith in humanity. This forum is just awesome.

 

[WIP]

Why would God predestine some?

According to the Scripture references already presented He has.

 

[WIP]

Well, I think your mind is pretty well made up so I doubt you will convey my thoughts.

Maybe it is at the moment but your response is a cop-out. I am interested in better understanding your view but if you're not going to help me then so be it.