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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Link...More than a hundred replies.. Confusion is given.
Some here has given a perfectly good and short answer. Based on the Bible..
Get a hold of the truth and then move on to learn more.
Free will is one of the most obvious and strongest characteristics of man.
Period!
The degree of free will is due to the degree of freedom.
Freedom is found in the Word of God.
Focus on that!
I agree with you,,,,but I do wonder how a person could believe that man does not have
free will.
I think it's a good idea to speak about this as long as everyone stays calm and we respect each other.
We're all brothers in Christ and are just speaking what we believe.
It's interesting how two different persons could read the same bible and come to different conclusion.
Let's see, figure things out for ourselves.WIP
I'm one who likes to study things out for myself.
There are so many different opinions here, you could throw a dart to pick one.
May I suggest that you study it out for yourself and find a conclusion that comes from God.
According to scripture, we are to seek out the truth from scripture on our own, as the Bereans did in the book of Acts.
Man has a myriad of options to choose from, but God only has one truth, and He doesn't twist His meanings around either or confuse you as man does. False teachers are everywhere.
Yes, it's much more work, but you can be assured of the CORRECT TRUTH, and feel confident in your salvation and knowledge for the sake of others you talk to.
Then why should any of us even be here?
Good question.
No one can answer.
You don't have free will.
You're a woman.
Read a couple systematic theology books and you will become "spiritually advanced". You will learn more than a decade worth of Sermons.
http://media.sabda.org/alkitab-2/PDF Books/00045 Thiessen Lectures in Systematic Theology.pdf ) This one is free. Thiessen is IMO Arminian so, I disagree with 5% of what he says, but who knows, maybe I am wrong.
Aside: When it comes to parables and the future (eschatology), then opinions are numerous.
Happy wife happy life.
Most guys I know married, the wife is in charge, and the husband knows it.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
FF,
Let's do this:
1. I might say what calvinists believe....not what YOU believe.
Only YOU know that.
Please stop calling me an arminian since I don't know what Jacob Arminius taught and I don't care to find out since I
follow the N.T. and not a man - whatever his name is.
2. When I post a scripture, how about just explaining how you understand it instead of giving your version and the arminian version?
Your version will do just fine since that is what I do when you post verses for me.
I don't mind being put on the defensive because I believe what the bible teaches....
however, YOU must also reply to my verses.
Your idea, for instance that our having free will limits God is interesting.
Your idea that somehow we rule over God is interesting.
I'd like to understand HOW you have these ideas when they are never mentioned by me or others on here.
We all agree that God is Almighty and Sovereign and can do whatever He wants to do and, at times, has, bypassing our
free will.
3. Please explain how you understand free will.
4. Above you say this:
"Agreed. Where in the verse does it say that they have the ability to serve God. There are plenty of verses that show they do not have the ability to choose God. They have a choice and none choose God unless He intervenes. That why Aminians invented 'prevenient grace' to try to solve the issue of the depravity of man. Romans 3:11; Genesis 6:5; \
- Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'.
- Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are as filthy rags The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord clean my rags ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'."
Please just answer what YOU say, not what an arminian might say.
What do you mean by "the ability to serve God"?
You say there are plenty of verses stating we do not have the ability to serve God.
You say we can only choose God if He intervenes.
This is very interesting because, as I believe with the 5 points of calvinism...
all points start out by believing man has no free will...that he is so depraved
that he cannot choose God by his own will.
This is why I've started this thread.
To show whether or not man has free will.
I've given you many verses but you do not reply to them.
Please do in the future.
The bible is not well organized in regards to topics and that leads to confusion. It also does not explain everything Deut 29:29.
Example: It was only after I read something in which someone took the time to put all the verses about prayer together did I have a clue what was meant by: "If you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain". Since I couldn't move a mountain, I assumed I didn't even have the faith of a mustard seed.
Walpole
Member
Calvinists see God's sovereignty as determining human will, whereas Christianity sees God's sovereignty as incorporating human will (through infallible foreknowledge). Calvinists are a fringe sect of Christianity. They are the outliers.
If the Calvinists are correct, then salvation is nothing more than an arbitrary act by a God who acts with pure will (much like the Islamic understanding of God). Salvation in Calvinism thus becomes the ultimate cosmic Power Ball drawing, where God does the drawing.
If the Calvinists are correct, then salvation is nothing more than an arbitrary act by a God who acts with pure will (much like the Islamic understanding of God). Salvation in Calvinism thus becomes the ultimate cosmic Power Ball drawing, where God does the drawing.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Brightfame....
You love John 15:16 because it says "but I have chosen you".
Unfortunately, it is speaking about the 12 Apostles, but you refuse to believe this.
Perhaps you could read some commentaries?
Here are some:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.—Comp. Luke 6:12 et seq., and in this Gospel John 6:70; John 13:18. The thought of His love for them, which had exalted them from the position of slaves to friends, from fishermen to Apostles, is made to remind them again (John 15:17) of the duty of love to each other. In John 15:20 he reminds them of the words which accompanied His own act of humility in washing their feet (John 13:15-16). The chiefest Apostle owed all to His gift and election, and should be ready to sacrifice all for his brethren, as He Himself was.
And ordained you.—The word “ordained” has acquired a special sense in modern English which is here misleading, and it will be better, therefore, to read appointed.
That ye should go and bring forth fruit.—Comp. Matthew 13:44; Matthew 18:15; Matthew 19:21, for the idea of going away and doing something. It implies here the activity of the Apostles as distinct from that of Christ. Each one as a branch ever joined to Christ was to grow away from Him in the development of his own work, and was to bring forth his own fruit. The margin compares Matthew 28:19, probably, with the thought of their fulfilling the Apostle’s missionary work. This view has been commonly adopted, but it gives to the word “go’” a fulness of meaning which is scarcely warranted.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Ye have not chosen me - The word here translated "chosen" is that from which is derived the word "elect," and means the same thing. It is frequently thus translated, Mark 13:20; Matthew 24:22, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31; Colossians 3:12. It refers here, doubtless, to his choosing or electing them to be apostles. He says that it was not because they had chosen him to be their teacher and guide, but because he had designated them to be his apostles. See John 6:70; also Matthew 4:18-22. He thus shows them that his love for them was pure and disinterested; that it commenced when they had no affection for him; that it was not a matter of obligation on his part, and that therefore it placed them under more tender and sacred obligations to be entirely devoted to his service. The same may be said of all who are endowed with talents of any kind, or raised to any office in the church or the state. It is not that they have originated these talents, or laid God under obligation. What they have they owe to his sovereign goodness, and they are bound to devote all to his service. Equally true is this of all Christians. It was not that by nature they were more inclined than others to seek God, or that they had any native goodness to recommend them to him, but it was because he graciously inclined them by his Holy Spirit to seek him; because, in the language of the Episcopal and Methodist articles of religion, "The grace of Christ prevented them;" that is, went before them, commenced the work of their personal salvation, and thus God in sovereign mercy chose them as His own. Whatever Christians, then, possess, they owe to God, and by the most tender and sacred ties they are bound to be his followers.
I have chosen you - To be apostles. Yet all whom he now addressed were true disciples. Judas had left them; and when Jesus says he had chosen them to bear fruit, it may mean, also, that he had "chosen them to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth," 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Ordained you - Literally, I have placed you, appointed you, set you apart. It does not mean that he had done this by any formal public act of the imposition of hands, as we now use the word, but that he had designated or appointed them to this work, Luke 6:13-16; Matthew 10:2-5.
Bring forth fruit - That you should be rich in good works; faithful and successful in spreading my gospel. This was the great business to which they were set apart, and this they faithfully accomplished. It may be added that this is the great end for which Christians are chosen. It is not to be idle, or useless, or simply to seek enjoyment. It is to do good, and to spread as far as possible the rich temporal and spiritual blessings which the gospel is fitted to confer on mankind.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
16. Ye have not chosen me, but I … you—a wholesale memento after the lofty things He had just said about their mutual indwelling, and the unreservedness of the friendship they had been admitted to.
ordained—appointed.
you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit—that is, give yourselves to it.
and that your fruit should remain—showing itself to be an imperishable and ever growing principle. (Compare Pr 4:18; 2Jo 8).
that whatsoever ye shall ask, &c.—(See on [1859]Joh 15:7).
Matthew Poole's Commentary
Ye have not chosen me to be your Lord, Master, Saviour,
but I have chosen and ordained you; so we have it in our translation; but the Greek is, eyhka, I have set you, or placed you in a station. What choosing Christ here speaks of is doubted amongst various divines. Some think that our Saviour here speaks of his choice of them to the apostleship, as Luke 6:13 John 6:70: those who thus understand it, understand by going and bringing forth fruit, the apostles’ going out, preaching, and baptizing all nations, bringing forth fruit amongst the Gentiles. But others understand it of election to eternal life, and the means necessary to it; for our Saviour brings this as an argument of his greatest love: Judas was in the first sense chosen, yet not beloved with any such love: and this seemeth to be favoured by John 13:18, I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: and certain it is, Augustine and others of the ancients from hence proved the freedom of election and special grace. Both senses may be united, for the eleven (to whom Christ was now speaking) were chosen in both senses; they were chosen for this end, to bring forth fruit amongst the Gentiles, turning many to righteousness, and that they might bring forth the fruit of holiness, in obedience to the gospel of Christ. Yea, not only to bring forth fruit, but that they might persevere in bringing forth fruit; and that thus doing, they might have a freedom of access to the throne of grace, and obtain whatsoever they should ask of the Father, in the name, for the merits, and through the mediation of the Lord Jesus Christ. See Poole on "John 14:13". See Poole on "John 14:14".
There's much more here:
You may also want to pay attention to what ORDAINED means...
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hey Rollo...
No One Can Answer means that God does not let us know how we can be saved.
Is this what you believe?
God specifically inspired the bible so that He can be known by man
and so that man can know how to achieve salvation.
And I know you're just kidding about the last statement...
but there are lots of new persons here and they may not know.
Walpole
Member
Jesus' instructions...
"seek and ye shall find"
"believe"
"have faith"
"love"
"forgive"
"do ye likewise"
"choose"
“follow me”
These are all things one does. In other words, they are a positive act of the will. If man does not have a free will, these instructions of Jesus would all be superfluous and useless. What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not even capable of doing?
God does not stuff his hand up our shirts like puppets. He doesn't need to move your pieces to beat you at checkers.
"seek and ye shall find"
"believe"
"have faith"
"love"
"forgive"
"do ye likewise"
"choose"
“follow me”
These are all things one does. In other words, they are a positive act of the will. If man does not have a free will, these instructions of Jesus would all be superfluous and useless. What kind of God asks man to do that which he is not even capable of doing?
God does not stuff his hand up our shirts like puppets. He doesn't need to move your pieces to beat you at checkers.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Brightfame...
You cannot pluck verses out of the bible.
Here is what the verse you are referring to means:
Romans 8:30
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Unfortunately you forgot to read what comes before this popular verse.
As you know, context is everything when reading any statement.
Romans 8:28-30
28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
And we find in verse 29, the key to the entire passage.
Those whom God FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED .... for what?
God predestined them to become CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.
And those whom God foreknew
He also predestined ....
He called to become conformed
He also justified for salvation
and, eventually, those that are justified will also be glorified.
Please exegete a verse and do not bring presuppositions to it.
God predestined HOW a person would become saved...
Not WHO would become saved.
The invitation is open to all.
1 Timothy 2:4
God desires ALL MEN to be saved.
Not all men WANT to be saved...,
thus we know we have free will.
Isn't it time to move on????
I will try to improve on that point.
Well, you occasionally flood the post with too many verses. Max. of three. I will take arminian idea under advisement as I am not sure how that would work out as the context of the discourse could affect things.
Well, max of 3 per post. YOU can list more, but that is max I would try to explain.
Well, doctrine has consequences. I say, for example, God controls the purpose of every atom through out all time which is a way of saying God controls everything. What is the consequences of this believe? Can it be tested? Is there scripture to support the idea? For example, if God determines all things you could say "that suggests He planned for my 5 year old to be hit by a bus". I would either agree or backtrack.
Aside: We always come to blows when you say that means Gods caused sin and I say that God allows sin (sigh). God determined sin would exist and God uses it for good, but He does not cause it. (but I digress)
I say that if 'libertarian free will' exists (the power to do something God does not determine) and that GOD says I will do "A" or "B" depending on what you do, then I control whether GOD does "A" or "B" ... or my belief in 'libertarian free will' has a flaw or something needs explanation.
DUDE (said in fun way) ... I've asked for your definition umpteen times ... sigh
Free Will (my definition) .... we always do what we desire more at the time (now, our desires can change .... at time of salvation I claim the Spirit regenerates me causing my desires to change ... to overcome the depravity and cause me to believe). The logical conclusion is that I believe the Regeneration logic precedes Faith; that God causes us to desire to believe salvificly.
Well, I don't want to be on defense all the time. A comparison of ideas highlights the conversation. If your ideas do not sync up with Arminians, then say so and I will confront those ideas. My ideas are consistent with Reform theology, your seem to be of a unique, private interpretation which gives you an advantage as you have an idea where I am coming from, and I have to guess what you believe.
Well, I wouldn't say all 5 points depend on free will ('free will' yet to be defined by you so I am just spitting into the wind when I comment) ...one can be a 4 or 3 pt Calvinist. One can believe in total depravity and the propose prevenient grave as the solution.
Again, I stated that the meaning of the thread IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE was ambiguous ... so discussion would be ambiguous. So, IMO, not much sense going forward.
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No you won’t. Just the opposite. Your advancement will be hindered. You will continue to live on milk.
You will get someone else’s slant on the subject.
Read and study the scriptures. Ask the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you.
This is why the Church is so divided, because they follow the teachings of man.
Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13
Again
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4
Spiritual babes follow the teachings of man.
To become mature, or as you put it, “spiritually advanced”, you must read and study the doctrine of Christ for yourself.
Let Christ teach you. That is the promise of the New Covenant.
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27
JLB
seriously ,i had a route ,I spukd photo the 100 year old churches on,it or 80 year old that all were pentacostal ,In 10 minutes from smiths grocery where I started i passed three of them.
others on the fpl side existed . yet somehow these say the Holy Ghost lead me to be this way and most if not all are black majority churches on that street .I didn't count the church before I got there who is also that way .nor the others 4 across from that street on another route that are not all charismatic but a few are .
gifford,more. churche's then stores and still has crime and drugs and murder .
those one man or woman shows can't all be right ,or led .
Amen. Well said sir.
He does however give us the Holy Spirit to empower us to obey Him, to lead us to do good rather than remain a slave to the sinful desires of our flesh.
Nevertheless, we must choose which one to obey.
JLB
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