IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes dear.

However, may I state that many Christians believe they can
live as they want to and still be saved.
Do YOU believe this?
I don't think you do.
I mean, I KNOW you don't believe this.

Someone has to say what needs to be said.
Jesus NEVER said "just believe in Me and you will be saved".

What He DID speak about was obeying Him and DOING.
Doing means doing things...not just believing.

(or it could mean NOT doing things).

Do we agree on this?
ed

A Christian who believes they can sin freely forever is not a Christian.
Just tell them so and move on.
Next!

 

[Link1983]

More than a hundred replies.. Confusion is given.
Some here has given a perfectly good and short answer. Based on the Bible..
Get a hold of the truth and then move on to learn more.
Free will is one of the most obvious and strongest characteristics of man.
Period!
The degree of free will is due to the degree of freedom.
Freedom is found in the Word of God.
Focus on that!

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

God did not make it difficult to be saved.
Why do you try to make it difficult?
Not everyone is smart enough to understand everything.
All we have to do is love Jesus all the days of our lives and we will be saved.
Are you able to understand that?

Rollo Tamasi
!st Peter 4:18, "if it is with DIFFICULTY that the righteous are SAVED, what will become of the godless man and the sinner.
Matthew 7:14, "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and FEW are those who find it."
Luke 13, 23-24, "And someone said to Jesus, "Lord, are there just a few being saved?" And Jesus said to him.
"Strive to enter by the narrow door, for many, I tell you will seek to enter and not be able.
Luke 9:23, "Then Jesus said to all of them, if anyone wants to come after me (Go to heaven), he must deny himself and TAKE UP his cross daily and follow me.
Ephesians 6:11Put on the full armor of God, so you can take a stand against the devil's schemes.
1st Peter 5"8

If God didn't make it difficult to be saved, why are there so many here, and so many, many more verses in scripture that say the same?

Not only is it DIFFICULT to get to heaven because GOD SAYS SO, but IT IS also AGONIZINGLY DIFFICULT.

In koine Greek, the word is agonizomai, agonize, it is the task of faith in persevering amid temptations and opposition - 1st Timothy 6:12, and2nd Timothy 4:7.
Its what Paul speaks of over and over about enduring or agonizing (same words), to win the prize.

I would quit repeating your opinion here, and find the truth as I did, and spread that instead.

God bless you as you continue in your search for the TRUTH.
Seasoned by Grace

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rollo Tamasi
!st Peter 4:18, "if it is with DIFFICULTY that the righteous are SAVED, what will become of the godless man and the sinner.
Matthew 7:14, "For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and FEW are those who find it."
Luke 13, 23-24, "And someone said to Jesus, "Lord, are there just a few being saved?" And Jesus said to him.
"Strive to enter by the narrow door, for many, I tell you will seek to enter and not be able.
Luke 9:23, "Then Jesus said to all of them, if anyone wants to come after me (Go to heaven), he must deny himself and TAKE UP his cross daily and follow me.
Ephesians 6:11Put on the full armor of God, so you can take a stand against the devil's schemes.
1st Peter 5"8

If God didn't make it difficult to be saved, why are there so many here, and so many, many more verses in scripture that say the same?

Not only is it DIFFICULT to get to heaven because GOD SAYS SO, but IT IS also AGONIZINGLY DIFFICULT.

In koine Greek, the word is agonizomai, agonize, it is the task of faith in persevering amid temptations and opposition - 1st Timothy 6:12, and2nd Timothy 4:7.
Its what Paul speaks of over and over about enduring or agonizing (same words), to win the prize.

I would quit repeating your opinion here, and find the truth as I did, and spread that instead.

God bless you as you continue in your search for the TRUTH.
Seasoned by Grace

There isn't anyone going bananas for Jesus that ain't saved.
You make it difficult for yourself.
Then for you it is difficult.
You think we need to do a hundred things to be saved.
Then for you it is a hundred things.
For me it's one thing, going bananas for Jesus everyday of my life.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Everyone seems to understand what free will is.
But you say the question lacks definition.
Why make anything more complicated than it is?

Words have meaning. Your question was IMO obtuse to the point that I had to define it.

Fastfredy0 said:
Man = every Homo sapien born since and including Adam and Eve. (Adam and Eve not being technically born of the flesh)
Choose - They are able make a choice that will ensure their unending future life in heaven or hell.
Free - not restricted by an external force
So we have "will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".
Makes sense to me, but as originator of the thread it is your responsibility to formulate topics so there is no ambiguity. For example, I could answer in the affirmative to the question of "IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE" but my definition of "FREE" I am sure differs from yours and therefore me answer lacks meaning.

Let me make it simple for you:

Oh, thank you. LOL

Do you have a free choice when making a moral decision?
If you chose A, would you also have been free to choose B?

Now I will make it simple for you. You have not defined "free choice" and therefore my answer has dubious meaning dependent of the audiences proclivity in regards to the definition of 'free choice'.

No http address could determine if our Indian friend from 1232AD is saved

You misread my statement. I posted a URL and following it by a ":" indicating the URL was related to what occurred after the ":".

You have yet to show me, biblically, where and how God took away our free will.

I can not do that. As I stated, you have not defined free will so I surely cannot find something when I don't even know what it (free will) is. Nor have you given ANY scripture to show God has given us "free will" (whatever that is, as it has yet to be defined).
Example: You cannot show me, biblically, where and how God decided to take away man's ability to fly by flapping his arms. Whereas God did ever give man the ability to fly, I surely can find a verse where God took away this supposed ability.
ASIDE: I don't think you know exactly what you even mean by 'free will' as you never clearly state what it is. Hospes tried once with little success

It was also present in Numbers 15:3
3then make an offering by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a special vow, or as a freewill offering or in your appointed times, to make a soothing aroma to the LORD, from the herd or from the flock.

God was asking for a freewill offering.

Well, the verse uses the words "free will", but the verse does NOT define it. Free will ... free from what??? Free from God's influence, free from the wife's nagging ...
I am not afraid to define free will. We always do what we desire more at the time ... thus in the verse, I could say the Spirit of God move me to do what I did. God is the cause for me freely desiring to make an offering.

You see the words "FREE WILL" in a verse (there are other verses with the words "Free Will" I believe) and light up like a Xmas tree. Unfortunately, the meaning is what you impose on it thus you vindicated in your mind. I try not to impose my meaning on the word, though admittedly I also am prone to bias.

Did He also determine from before time what the person would choose as the freewill offering? (the amount).

I would answer "yes". You would, I assume, answer "no". I believe God ordains all things (Eph. 1:11) and you believe IMO God looked into future and He LEARNED from what we would do in the future as His KNOWLEDGE is DEPENDENT upon looking into the future to determine what we will do, that we control God by our actions (like a puppet I think someone recently articulated) as our FREEDOM to choose trumps God FREEDOM of sovereignty and God is obligated to act in ways that we control. Job 7:37:38, Isaiah 26:12; etc.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]? To this you IMO answer, "LORD, I have my FREEWILL .. the ability to do what I want to some degree, that I can use to force you to adopt me as your daughter. John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood [Jews] nor of the will of the flesh [works, confession, repentance, pleading, etc.] nor of the will of man [God chose us and not of our own will], but of God AMP

Free will was also present in Deuteronomy 8:19
19“It shall come about if you ever forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you will surely perish.

I don't see free will in this verse. But, you refuse to define it so perhaps I don't know what to look for.

Joshua 24:15
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Joshua is telling the Israelites that they have A CHOICE: To serve God or to serve other gods.

Agreed. Where in the verse does it say that they have the ability to serve God. There are plenty of verses that show they do not have the ability to choose God. They have a choice and none choose God unless He intervenes. That why Aminians invented 'prevenient grace' to try to solve the issue of the depravity of man. Romans 3:11; Genesis 6:5; \

1. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'.
2. Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are as filthy rags The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord clean my rags ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'.

etc. etc. etc.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Words have meaning. Your question was IMO obtuse to the point that I had to define it.

Fastfredy0 said:
Man = every Homo sapien born since and including Adam and Eve. (Adam and Eve not being technically born of the flesh)
Choose - They are able make a choice that will ensure their unending future life in heaven or hell.
Free - not restricted by an external force
So we have "will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".
Makes sense to me, but as originator of the thread it is your responsibility to formulate topics so there is no ambiguity. For example, I could answer in the affirmative to the question of "IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE" but my definition of "FREE" I am sure differs from yours and therefore me answer lacks meaning.



Oh, thank you. LOL


Now I will make it simple for you. You have not defined "free choice" and therefore my answer has dubious meaning dependent of the audiences proclivity in regards to the definition of 'free choice'.


You misread my statement. I posted a URL and following it by a ":" indicating the URL was related to what occurred after the ":".



I can not do that. As I stated, you have not defined free will so I surely cannot find something when I don't even know what it (free will) is. Nor have you given ANY scripture to show God has given us "free will" (whatever that is, as it has yet to be defined).
Example: You cannot show me, biblically, where and how God decided to take away man's ability to fly by flapping his arms. Whereas God did ever give man the ability to fly, I surely can find a verse where God took away this supposed ability.
ASIDE: I don't think you know exactly what you even mean by 'free will' as you never clearly state what it is. Hospes tried once with little success


Well, the verse uses the words "free will", but the verse does NOT define it. Free will ... free from what??? Free from God's influence, free from the wife's nagging ...
I am not afraid to define free will. We always do what we desire more at the time ... thus in the verse, I could say the Spirit of God move me to do what I did. God is the cause for me freely desiring to make an offering.

You see the words "FREE WILL" in a verse (there are other verses with the words "Free Will" I believe) and light up like a Xmas tree. Unfortunately, the meaning is what you impose on it thus you vindicated in your mind. I try not to impose my meaning on the word, though admittedly I also am prone to bias.


I would answer "yes". You would, I assume, answer "no". I believe God ordains all things (Eph. 1:11) and you believe IMO God looked into future and He LEARNED from what we would do in the future as His KNOWLEDGE is DEPENDENT upon looking into the future to determine what we will do, that we control God by our actions (like a puppet I think someone recently articulated) as our FREEDOM to choose trumps God FREEDOM of sovereignty and God is obligated to act in ways that we control. Job 7:37:38, Isaiah 26:12; etc.

1 Corinthians 4:7 For who regards you as superior or what sets you apart as special? What do you have that you did not receive [from another]? And if in fact you received it [from God or someone else], why do you boast as if you had not received it [but had gained it by yourself]? To this you IMO answer, "LORD, I have my FREEWILL .. the ability to do what I want to some degree, that I can use to force you to adopt me as your daughter. John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood [Jews] nor of the will of the flesh [works, confession, repentance, pleading, etc.] nor of the will of man [God chose us and not of our own will], but of God AMP




I don't see free will in this verse. But, you refuse to define it so perhaps I don't know what to look for.





Agreed. Where in the verse does it say that they have the ability to serve God. There are plenty of verses that show they do not have the ability to choose God. They have a choice and none choose God unless He intervenes. That why Aminians invented 'prevenient grace' to try to solve the issue of the depravity of man. Romans 3:11; Genesis 6:5; \

1. Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'.
2. Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are as filthy rags The Libertarian Free Willer answers, "I can Lord clean my rags ... thanks for giving me 'prevenient grace'.

etc. etc. etc.

We have free will to choose Jesus or not to choose Jesus.
He is the son of God.
The will of God is this; to believe in the one he sent.
It's real simple.
I believe in keeping salvation simple.
How about you?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did God choose Biden?

“that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to who he will” (Daniel 4:32), and Paul says that “there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God” (Romans 13:1).

Aside: Personality, I didn't like God's pick ... but everything worketh for good to those ....

 

[Fastfredy0]

We have free will to choose Jesus or not to choose Jesus.

If by free will you mean and same as Augustine, I agree.

The will of God is this; to believe in the one he sent.
It's real simple.
I believe in keeping salvation simple.
How about you?

I believe whatever the Bible says. I believe my beliefs in this regard have errors. I don't know the errors (Aside: I am sure wondering could point them out .. *giggles*)

If salvation is simple (easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty) then why aren't more people saved (no difficulty) and why do people have so much disagreement as to how it is accomplished (works needed, works not needed, you have to be baptized, no you don't have to be baptized, how was faith defined in the old testament, what do I have to believe now, what is the definition of faith, yahda, yahda yahda

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If by free will you mean and same as Augustine, I agree.



I believe whatever the Bible says. I believe my beliefs in this regard have errors. I don't know the errors (Aside: I am sure wondering could point them out .. *giggles*)

If salvation is simple (easily understood or done; presenting no difficulty) then why aren't more people saved (no difficulty) and why do people have so much disagreement as to how it is accomplished (works needed, works not needed, you have to be baptized, no you don't have to be baptized, how was faith defined in the old testament, what do I have to believe now, what is the definition of faith, yahda, yahda yahda

That's right Jerry, people make it difficult.
Then they think they can do it all.
I think.
You must be born again.
I heard that in the Bible some where.
Then you must stay born again.
That sounds foolish to me, as if we have any control over it.
God's in control, not us.

 

[brightfame52]

The question should be is God free to choose? Ps 65:4

Blessed is the man whom thou choosest,
and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts:
we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

John 15:16

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[GodsGrace]

you claim the right of predesitning your self to be saved ?

I don't believe in predestination.
The bible does not teach predestination.

I don't save myself.
Jesus saves me.
But I have to CHOOSE to WANT to be saved.
God does not coerce me into being saved....
He does not force me to be saved because HE decides I should be.

If that were the case...why would the bible be filled with requirements for salvataion?
If GOD makes ALL the decisions as to my salvation...
WHY do I need a guide book?
He would just save me anyway, right?

 

[brightfame52]

I don't believe in predestination.
The bible does not teach predestination.

I don't save myself.
Jesus saves me.
But I have to CHOOSE to WANT to be saved.
God does not coerce me into being saved....
He does not force me to be saved because HE decides I should be.

If that were the case...why would the bible be filled with requirements for salvataion?
If GOD makes ALL the decisions as to my salvation...
WHY do I need a guide book?
He would just save me anyway, right?

The bible does not teach predestination! What bible are you reading? Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

[GodsGrace]

you imply God doesmy.

freddy posted we don't live free
why exactly does God call us slaves to sin and then slaves to righteousness once saved?

a slave has no freedom .that's a starting point of this

Christianity 101 Jason.

We are slaves to sin because when we're born we belong to satan and, no matter how good we are,
we are still slaves to the evil one because we either belong to God or to satan and we are lost before we are born again.

Then Jesus died for us....He atoned for our sin/sins.
He BOUGHT US BACK from the evil one, and so now we become children of God...
we become slaves to God....
but this is a metaphor....we are children of God, not slaves of God.

Here's the verse:

John 1:11-13
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Let's go through it....I hope Fastfredy0 is reading along because he brings this verse up at times.

verse 11: Jesus came to His own,,, the Jews, but they did not receive Him.

verse 12: But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM....IOW,,,those that did accept Jesus - accept means of their own free will -, Jesus gave the ones that accepted Him
the right to be called Children of God...that is, those that believe in his name.

verse 13: And how are those that believe in Jesus saved?
Those that believe in Jesus are the born of God...
John 3:16: WHOEVER believes in Jesus will be saved.
John 6:47: WHOEVER believes has eternal life.
John 1:7: He came as a light so that ALL might believe through Him.
1 John 3:7: Little Children...let no one deceive you....
and many more....

Not those that were born of blood:

This means physically...
we are not saved because we are physically born.
Jesus said we must be born again...John 3:5
First of the physical birth and THEN of the spiritual birth.

Not those of the will of the flesh:

We cannot be saved due to a plan we have of our own.
For instance, through works without faith.

Not of the will of man:

This could mean a religious effort...
doing everything that is right but having no faith in God.

But of God:

Salvation is bought through the will of God...
His desire to save all men and
He did this by providing a way out for us...
His Son's sacrifice.

 

[jasonc]

Christianity 101 Jason.

We are slaves to sin because when we're born we belong to satan and, no matter how good we are,
we are still slaves to the evil one because we either belong to God or to satan and we are lost before we are born again.

Then Jesus died for us....He atoned for our sin/sins.
He BOUGHT US BACK from the evil one, and so now we become children of God...
we become slaves to God....
but this is a metaphor....we are children of God, not slaves of God.

Here's the verse:

John 1:11-13
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Let's go through it....I hope Fastfredy0 is reading along because he brings this verse up at times.

verse 11: Jesus came to His own,,, the Jews, but they did not receive Him.

verse 12: But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM....IOW,,,those that did accept Jesus - accept means of their own free will -, Jesus gave the ones that accepted Him
the right to be called Children of God...that is, those that believe in his name.

verse 13: And how are those that believe in Jesus saved?
Those that believe in Jesus are the born of God...
John 3:16: WHOEVER believes in Jesus will be saved.
John 6:47: WHOEVER believes has eternal life.
John 1:7: He came as a light so that ALL might believe through Him.
1 John 3:7: Little Children...let no one deceive you....
and many more....

Not those that were born of blood:

This means physically...
we are not saved because we are physically born.
Jesus said we must be born again...John 3:5
First of the physical birth and THEN of the spiritual birth.

Not those of the will of the flesh:

We cannot be saved due to a plan we have of our own.
For instance, through works without faith.

Not of the will of man:

This could mean a religious effort...
doing everything that is right but having no faith in God.

But of God:

Salvation is bought through the will of God...
His desire to save all men and
He did this by providing a way out for us...
His Son's sacrifice.

I guess that all thowe verses on chastistement don't imply any view Gof breaking our will .
free doesntv exist in that concept

if biden listed or any defined freedom as such as he desired ,that isn't freedom?bit God being sovereign designed man according to His will,and listed rules that no creation can disobey. that's free will so long as you decide what rule.

you do know the army does that,no General no one can simply do as he wants ,he has to do as the president orders and those under him.

btw in your hatred of the reformed be careful not define free will like them .

my,pastor preached on Romans 6 and defined slavery as you posted .

God ,surely won't allow his sons to sin and not correct them .

 

[jasonc]

I don't believe in predestination.
The bible does not teach predestination.

I don't save myself.
Jesus saves me.
But I have to CHOOSE to WANT to be saved.
God does not coerce me into being saved....
He does not force me to be saved because HE decides I should be.

If that were the case...why would the bible be filled with requirements for salvataion?
If GOD makes ALL the decisions as to my salvation...
WHY do I need a guide book?
He would just save me anyway, right?

so your calling in the bible of the 12 gifts or 5 offices the Holy Ghost nope ,you make your self ?

the only choice you have is yes or no.
you assume that Gof has to not know your Tommorow and wait on you to act instead of acting beforehand

he knows our prayers before we ask .

what man meant for evil ,God meant for Good,the enslavement ,wrong doing to Joseph ,so that God could be glorified in that famine and save isreal .

I didnt enlist to be a lot of what i choose later on ,God had something with that .i didn't plan to be a meter reader ,perhaps God uses things men or satan to his glory and our sins .

you seem to think you have the real ability to create your walk ,and holiness and gifts .

 

[GodsGrace]

he raises all.

Romans 13 ,Nero was in power
obey them,in,office .he killed his mother and siblings to stay in power and yet it says ,God didn't make him do it just used it and it says what evil is done and punished by God under roman law .

only resist ungodly laws .

god allows men to do evil its called he allows it ,a part of his plan ,mercy or in timing judgement of glory

jason,,,
You are one confused dude.
I only take the liberty to tell you this because I've known you for so long.
Over 5 years now!
Sorry if I have to tell you this.
You're stuck between a rock and a hard place...
You're not sure what you believe.

Here's why:

EVERY Christian believes that God allows evil and sinning.
This is WHY WE HAVE FREE WILL.
God allows us to do what we choose to do.

But YOU say it's what God planned to do.
This is not so. If it is, everything else you said after that statement cannot be true.
We are either responsible for our own sins, or GOD is responsible for our sins IF HE PLANNED FOR US TO SIN.

You can't have it both ways Jason.
What you say and how you say it is important.
You present two different points of view and then you say you agree with both!
This is impossible.

now to kill this mystery of said 1200s indian who can't name but somehow is good enough .what tribe ?most are canniballistuc or worshippers of nature ,the Mayans ,Incans,Olmec,toltec,and aztec worshipped nature and they all had human sacrifice.it was comon to offer captives from war or in dire a local in said village or city .

Guess they aren't saved then.
And it has nothing to do with being good enough.

if God dI'd reveal himself ,he changed ?they would have stopped ,those that believed .since you can't from the bible state that these are in heaven ,argument from silence ,nor can it be said otherwise it's a fable per what Paul warned about .

Romans 1:19-20 states that God revealed Himself to ALL MANKIND.
I didn't make this up myself...I didn't write scripture.

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God made Himself evident to them...mankind.
Since the creation of the world His nature has been seen.
It has been understood through what was made.
So much so, that MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE.

It cannot be more clear than this.
We cannot bring our own predispositions to the bible.

indian culture ,I do read up on it .Mayan and Aztec artifacts have been found in floruda .trade did occur .

you make God inconsistent on that if a person is honest in his worship of a dietty,the nature of creation even in calvinism or arminism is not a full revelation.

I didn't say God does not reveal Himself...
I said God DOES reveal Himself.
Now that we have scripture and know Jesus....we can trust what
Jesus told us about His Father and our Father.

Jesus told us God is love.
1 John 4:8

A God of love does not arbitrarily send some to heaven and some to hell based on absolutely nothing.
He, being a loving God of His creation, would give EVERYONE a chance to be saved. 1 Timothey 2:4

both do believe God reveals in visions but again neither to be in,place of Romans 10. it does happen bit again outside of the testimonies if those in churches afterwards ,there aren't any in the Americas or elsewhere that can be produced akin to the bible

OK. I'm not sure what you mean by the above, but there's enough on the table.

 

[GodsGrace]

A Christian who believes they can sin freely forever is not a Christian.
Just tell them so and move on.
Next!

I move on according to the discussion.
Right now it's about how some Christians change
the nature of God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The bible does not teach predestination.

Amazing statement given your knowledge of the Bible!!!!

“You did not choose Me but I chose you" John 15:6

“Knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you,” 1 Thessalonians 1:4

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

I don't save myself.
Jesus saves me.
But I have to CHOOSE to WANT to be saved.

This also is a view held by a minute minority. Even Arminians, state the works of salvation is synergistic meaning God and the person are involved in the work of salvation.

If that were the case...why would the bible be filled with requirements for salvataion?
If GOD makes ALL the decisions as to my salvation...
WHY do I need a guide book?
He would just save me anyway, right?

This is not a biblical argument. Deut. 29:29. It is anthropocentric logic trying to justify your ideas on the process of salvation.

 

[jasonc]

jason,,,
You are one confused dude.
I only take the liberty to tell you this because I've known you for so long.
Over 5 years now!
Sorry if I have to tell you this.
You're stuck between a rock and a hard place...
You're not sure what you believe.

Here's why:

EVERY Christian believes that God allows evil and sinning.
This is WHY WE HAVE FREE WILL.
God allows us to do what we choose to do.

But YOU say it's what God planned to do.
This is not so. If it is, everything else you said after that statement cannot be true.
We are either responsible for our own sins, or GOD is responsible for our sins IF HE PLANNED FOR US TO SIN.

You can't have it both ways Jason.
What you say and how you say it is important.
You present two different points of view and then you say you agree with both!
This is impossible.



Guess they aren't saved then.
And it has nothing to do with being good enough.



Romans 1:19-20 states that God revealed Himself to ALL MANKIND.
I didn't make this up myself...I didn't write scripture.

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God made Himself evident to them...mankind.
Since the creation of the world His nature has been seen.
It has been understood through what was made.
So much so, that MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE.

It cannot be more clear than this.
We cannot bring our own predispositions to the bible.




I didn't say God does not reveal Himself...
I said God DOES reveal Himself.
Now that we have scripture and know Jesus....we can trust what
Jesus told us about His Father and our Father.

Jesus told us God is love.
1 John 4:8

A God of love does not arbitrarily send some to heaven and some to hell based on absolutely nothing.
He, being a loving God of His creation, would give EVERYONE a chance to be saved. 1 Timothey 2:4


OK. I'm not sure what you mean by the above, but there's enough on the table.

so I,guess the mormons who,were never told they were wrong are in heaven,the Indians whi sacrificied .etc..look,the mayans etc like the Egyptians etc had the sense of right or wrong .
faith comes first ,surely if God revealed himself these would be known .

the great spirit isnt even close ,nor quetzlcostal .

 

[jasonc]

jason,,,
You are one confused dude.
I only take the liberty to tell you this because I've known you for so long.
Over 5 years now!
Sorry if I have to tell you this.
You're stuck between a rock and a hard place...
You're not sure what you believe.

Here's why:

EVERY Christian believes that God allows evil and sinning.
This is WHY WE HAVE FREE WILL.
God allows us to do what we choose to do.

But YOU say it's what God planned to do.
This is not so. If it is, everything else you said after that statement cannot be true.
We are either responsible for our own sins, or GOD is responsible for our sins IF HE PLANNED FOR US TO SIN.

You can't have it both ways Jason.
What you say and how you say it is important.
You present two different points of view and then you say you agree with both!
This is impossible.



Guess they aren't saved then.
And it has nothing to do with being good enough.



Romans 1:19-20 states that God revealed Himself to ALL MANKIND.
I didn't make this up myself...I didn't write scripture.

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

God made Himself evident to them...mankind.
Since the creation of the world His nature has been seen.
It has been understood through what was made.
So much so, that MAN IS WITHOUT EXCUSE.

It cannot be more clear than this.
We cannot bring our own predispositions to the bible.




I didn't say God does not reveal Himself...
I said God DOES reveal Himself.
Now that we have scripture and know Jesus....we can trust what
Jesus told us about His Father and our Father.

Jesus told us God is love.
1 John 4:8

A God of love does not arbitrarily send some to heaven and some to hell based on absolutely nothing.
He, being a loving God of His creation, would give EVERYONE a chance to be saved. 1 Timothey 2:4


OK. I'm not sure what you mean by the above, but there's enough on the table.

god owes you or any the right to be saved or he choose to be merciful .

for I,who have mercy upon ....
I'm well aware of you arguments but God being completely,free of any forces and not evil,acts as such we can't ,God tolerates evil and uses it to his glory .

could it be he does this because he wants to and to show ,I never said nature doesn't say anything but if you didn't need a bible to know him ,why have a bible or it written down?