IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?

[Seasoned by Grace]

for I know my,plans for you ..

I know you,before you were born.. i guess he Doesnt already know who will actually repent . we are infinite ,He isn't .

Brother jasonc
This isn't how we talk to each other here anymore.
You need to clean it up.
We can discuss things and be civil and loving towards one another.

 

[jasonc]

Brother jasonc
This isn't how we talk to each other here anymore.
You need to clean it up.
We can discuss things and be civil and loving towards one another.

you words imply God isn't omniscient .

when a man insulted the nature of God at a the council against Arian's,he was slapped.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

My dear brother jasonc
You made an assumption that wasn't true. That word "MODERATOR" beside my name isn't there for no reason.
I wasn't allowed here because I was "ignorant" of God's word, or was put here so I could be "SLAPPED" in the face by someone jumping to conclusions before asking what I meant.

The kind thing to do would have been to ask me what I meant, and I would have explained it to you.

Why don't we start over and be loving in this discussion, and I will explain what I said.
You don't have to agree with me, but your not a member of the Arian council.

God bless us as we get to know each other better.
Seasoned by Grase

 

[jasonc]

My dear brother jasonc
You made an assumption that wasn't true. That word "MODERATOR" beside my name isn't there for no reason.
I wasn't allowed here because I was "ignorant" of God's word, or was put here so I could be "SLAPPED" in the face by someone jumping to conclusions before asking what I meant.

The kind thing to do would have been to ask me what I meant, and I would have explained it to you.

Why don't we start over and be loving in this discussion, and I will explain what I said.
You don't have to agree with me, but your not a member of the Arian council.

God bless us as we get to know each other better.
Seasoned by Grase

you made yourself ?
yoh woke up,decided to be female ?
plan to die ,you choose your abilities

no to,all
that isn't the premise .I'm not even a one or the other but I observe how we are .we really are limited .God said this

for it appointed for all men to die ..sounds like he set ups death by allowing it to happen.

as quoted by another our days are numbered ,we can't add or subject. genetics plays a role .my mom is 30 lbs under weight ,anemic and has high blood pressure .

high bp runs in the family ,as does dementia ,dad has it ,grandfather's died with it .

as far as sarcasm ,God uses it ,see the plaques against Egypt ,oh you worship frogs ,here is Your God !

oh pharoah is A God ?he rebirths in his son?let me help you,with that .

so I guess a bit of sarcasm is a sin ,funny,you insult scholars who might be wrong but you,also study ,a scholar is what those reformers where .

it is that reason i choose my approach .I don't agree with Calvin but I see why .

 

[Fastfredy0]

• Psalm 139:16 All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.
• Proverbs 16:4 The LORD works out everything for his own ends – even the wicked for a day of disaster.
• Proverbs 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
• Proverbs 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?
• Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.
• Daniel 4:35 All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing. He does as he pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back his hand or say to him: "What have you done?"
• Acts 2:23 this Man, when handed over [to the Roman authorities] according to the predetermined decision and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross and put to death by the hands of lawless and godless men.
• Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have [a]received an inheritance [a destiny—we were claimed by God as His own], having been predestined (chosen, appointed beforehand) according to the purpose of Him who works everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will,
• 1 Corinthians 2:7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory.
• 2 Timothy 1:9b [He did it] not because of anything of merit that we have done, but because of and to further His own purpose and grace (unmerited favor) which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began [eternal ages ago].
• James 4:13-15 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that."

 

[Walpole]

If you don't believe man has free will, why are you wasting your time here arguing with us and not just praying to God to shove his hand up our shirts and work us like puppets?

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

If you don't believe man has free will, why are you wasting your time here arguing with us and not just praying to God to shove his hand up our shirts and work us like puppets?

Walpole
The best way I've heard it put in a LOOOOONG time.
THANK YOU

People get so caught up here in finding the verses that support their view, they ignore the rest of the bible.

God gives them over to a "Delusional" mind and the mind of a reprobate.
They are blind guides leading the blind.
Ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth.
Having a form of Godliness, they deny its power.
There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death.
They never received the love of the truth, so as to be saved.

 

[jasonc]

jasonc You continue to attack my opinion with a total lack of any love or kindness.
I deleted this post because he has gone against the rules he agreed to, to join.
We're here to love each other, be kind, and have civil discussions.

If you continue this line of verbal attacks, I will continue to delete your caustic posts.
Seasoned by Grace - MODERATOR

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 2:1; "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Do you have Jesus today?
Just confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your hear that he rose from the grave, and you will be saved.

Is that all?
Do we also need to obey God?

I don't ask for you but for some that may be reading along and think that's ALL
one has to do to be saved.

Jesus said we are to obey Him...
John 14.15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do we also need to keep Jesus commandments?

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

Is that all?
Do we also need to obey God?

I don't ask for you but for some that may be reading along and think that's ALL
one has to do to be saved.

Jesus said we are to obey Him...
John 14.15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do we also need to keep Jesus commandments?

wondering you are so right.
There is so much in scripture that goes beyond the "MILK OF THE WORD"taught in churches which to me is a heartbreaker.
There is so much joy and fulfillment when getting into the meat OF THE WORD, as you know for yourself, and finding the depth of God's word that grows us in our faith and LOVE and true understanding of God's truth the way God meant for us to understand.

God bless you
Seasoned by Grace

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
Your so right about the phrase "Believe in the Lord and be saved," and the word "believe."
There are so many levels of learning about salvation and different word meanings including especially when a person gets into studying the original Greek "koine" language of Christ's day, and that there is so much more "HARMONY" in Gods word in the original language that you'd ever find in the modern scriptures modified over and over until they've gotten to us, and then twisted and modified even more in their interpretation or transliteration.

In studying the word "believe," pisteuo, a Greek word that simply is the very beginning of getting to know anyone, including Christ, and in its context of faith or salvation carries no meaning of being saved anywhere.
At best, it's just a word that describes the very beginning of our relationship with Christ, as in meeting someone but know little to nothing about them.
In fact, in the context of knowing Christ, it means to have questions about who Christ is, and not be certain, because all you have is what someone else has told you about Him, and you have no reason to trust what you've been told.
Simply stated, it's not a word of unquestionable belief, but a word of questioning and being unsure.
There are several words that are progressive from the word believing, that will take you to the full level of believing,
like you'd have with a best friend, a BFF, but this word in its context of salvation will never get you there.

Yes SbyG...
Sometimes we speak about the word BELIEVE....
It contains within it what you've mentioned:
Trust
Also, it means to follow,
To believe with the heart
To be willing to learn from the person trusted

1. to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
   1. of the thing believed
      1. to credit, have confidence
   2. in a moral or religious reference
      1. used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
      2. to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
      3. mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith
2. to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
   1. to be intrusted with a thing

source: https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4100

 

[jasonc]

jasonc He continues to attack my opinion with total lack of any love or kindness.
I deleted this post because he has gone against the rules he agreed to, to join.
We're here to love each other, be kind, and have civil discussions.

If you continue this line of attack, I will continue to delete your posts.
Seasoned by Grace - MODERATOR

by rights in the tos .I have challenged that .

 

[GodsGrace]

id say 'no.'

LOL
You've preached for a change!

adam's sin separated humanity from God. Jesus came to bridge the gap...for the elect.

Where does it say that Jesus came to bridge the gap for the elect?
I can't find it anywhere!
What I read is that WHOEVER believes in Jesus will be saved. John 3:16
I read that we are to BELIEVE IN JESUS and you will be saved.That sounds like a command to me for the jailer who had inquired as to how to be saved. Acts 16:30-31
Jesus said that He has come as light into the world so that EVERYONE who believes in Him may not remain in darkness. John 12:46
Jesus said that the person that rejects Him and does not receive His sayings has One who will judge at the last day. John 12:48

Doesn't that sound like free will to you?

Jesus said IF you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:15

Doesn't that sound like free will to you?

Why was the bible even written if, anyway, God will determine all?

'many are called, few are chosen...,' not because the elect are 'super special,' but because it requires an act of God to bring sinners in a sin cursed world to The Lord. and...

per The Westminster confession, the elect are...well, part of the elect...thru no merit or lack thereof on their own part. It is "God's good pleasure," if I recall correctly.

Fine. But what does the bible say?
Does the WCF take precedence over the bible?
Where in the N.T. does it state that God elected some and passed over others?
This is merely an idea a man came up with: John Calvin

Doesn't it make more sense for a loving God to let us know HOW we can be saved and then
to judge us on our own merits?

Why is God sending persons to hell that only sinned because God determined that they should?o
Is this a just God?

Or does He just send persons to hell because it "pleases Him" some how?

"What is the purpose of life?" "To know God, to love God, to honor and obey God, now and for eternity."

Agreed.

the wheat and the tares exist within the 'visible' church till the harvest time. from day 1, Jesus warned of false teachers, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing who would 'deceive the very -elect- , if possible...'

Right. But WHO are the false teachers?
How can we know?
Would it have anything to do with the nature and attributes of God?

I go for predestination because I've seen it play out, already, 8 years into truly Knowing Jesus. some people are raised in sound churches, play church, live like hell while spouting Scripture to condemn others...

then, one reads about Jesus showing Himself -in dreams- to unbelievers in hostile, Christ-hating nations.

I think we can all agree that the above is wrong and some that play at church are not really saved at all.
But does this mean that God did not choose them?
Or does it mean they are not interested in God and did not respond to His call?

i lean Reformed, its just...the way it is, with me...but I like david wilkerson. so, in one of his many visions, he saw an 'end times remnant' that would consist of people from -all- the established churches and the un-churched, too...

while apostasy grows and persecution becomes more of an issue, even -within the established church-, wilkerson sees this 'remnant' as holding fast to Christ and somehow (keep in mind; this vision is pre-internet) fellowshipping with other genuine believers...

This sounds like The Body of Christ.
or The Church (capital C).

so, its not as if even the Pentecostals -- at least, the old school ones, such as Wilkerson -- are always so focused on man's choices and man's actions and man's will to keep on believing that they don't ever, ever acknowledge that salvation is a divine, supernatural work + process. even my older Pentecostal friend will tell me that God spared me because He "knew you would turn to Him," so there's an admission of at least an element of -foreknowledge- from a cradle to grave Pentecostal.

I agree with foreknowledge but it's vastly different from predeterminism/predestination.
Salvation IS a divine work.
God reveals Himself to all because He would want that all come to know Him.
But not all respond with a yes...
John 3:16

the deal is...this isn't calvin vs rcc vs sbc vs...on and on...

to me, looking around at Christians, those who stayed, those who strayed, those who matured in Him over time...

(re)affirms Scripture (that's the big thing) and also calvin's take on God's work in saving some, leaving others to their/our natural, unrepentant and unregenerate state (significant for me, but far less important than seeing Scripture illuminated by real world observations and experiences).

--finished--

Scripture does not teach that God just leaves some to their own unrepentant state.
Scripture teaches that the person involved does not care to have a relationship with God.
God works in all...His grace is given to all...enough grace to let them know of His existance.
Doesn't everyone we know have some knowledge of God?
Jesus said there will be few on the narrow path
and many on the path to destruction.
A path is followed by a person...
They take the path.
Matthew 7:13......

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is that all?
Do we also need to obey God?

I don't ask for you but for some that may be reading along and think that's ALL
one has to do to be saved.

Jesus said we are to obey Him...
John 14.15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do we also need to keep Jesus commandments?

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
Why do I always have to spell things out for you?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Is that all?
Do we also need to obey God?

I don't ask for you but for some that may be reading along and think that's ALL
one has to do to be saved.

Jesus said we are to obey Him...
John 14.15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Do we also need to keep Jesus commandments?

God did not make it difficult to be saved.
Why do you try to make it difficult?
Not everyone is smart enough to understand everything.
All we have to do is love Jesus all the days of our lives and we will be saved.
Are you able to understand that?

 

[Fastfredy0]

If you don't believe man has free will, why are you wasting your time here arguing with us and not just praying to God to shove his hand up our shirts and work us like puppets?

Well, it just that we don't believe we can shove of hand up God's shirt and make Him act like our puppet via supposed libertarian free will.
Arminianism is a man-centered theology. Again, they will deny this, but when was the last time you heard an Arminian preach a sermon on God’s freedom? I've listened to Arminian preachers for over thirty years and I never once heard a sermon on God’s absolute freedom to do as He pleases in all of creation and save whom He wills; His freedom to manifest His glory through the display of both His mercy and justice, although this is exactly what Romans 9:22-24 teaches. Instead, they are far more interested in their own freedom. In fact, I would say that free will should really be the god of the Arminian, because even the Almighty is subject to it. Even God cannot overcome it. In their view, God has somehow limited Himself because He gave His creatures free will that He cannot violate. Yet if God Himself cannot overcome my free will, how is He then omnipotent? If God limits Himself in any way, He is no longer God. Daniel Reckard
Acts 17:28 In Him we live, and move, and have our being.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created in heaven and on earth, [things] visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [that is, by His activity] and for Him. 17 And He Himself existed and is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. [His is the controlling, cohesive force of the universe.]

 

[Fastfredy0]

We have two alternatives, between them we are obliged to choose: either God governs, or He is governed to some extent; either God rules, or He is ruled to some extent; either God has His way, or men have theirs to some extent; either God is sovereign and all that ever has existed or will exist is with His plan, or the God is not sovereign and there is a universe which exists in defiance of God's holy character and over which He has not authority.
I prefer God's rule. You prefer the co-rule of a Holy God in which there is no darkness and that of man, most of whom are son's of the devil. All of which have a sin nature. Let's see, we have two choices:
1) a destiny entirely ruled be God or
2) a destiny co-ruled by God and evil men
..... hmmm, maybe a co-operative venture would be best .. nah, I will go with #1

That facts you ignore when considering whether all men has an uninfluenced free choice to be saved
Approx. 2 billion have never heard the gospel, you think they have a choice. Absurd
25% (a conservative estimate) of people die of before the age of accountability, including spontaneous miscarriages, abortions, sickness ... and yet you think they have a choice. It is beyond ridiculous to think and aborted fetus has a choice or someone who will never hear the gospel has a choice. Roman 10:17 So faith cometh by hearing..


God is Sovereign as He is the Almighty, and all powerful, so that no one can defeat His purpose, or resist His will. The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute. God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases; whatever takes place in time is He decreed in eternity. "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased" (Psalm 115:3).

• "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27).
• "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35). "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Romans 11:36).
• Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
• Ephesians 1:11b Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His [own] will
• Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”

 

[GodsGrace]

IS MAN FREE TO CHOOSE?​

Unfortunately, the question lacks definition. This will lead to a variance of answers and understanding of those answers.
So I will supply my definition.

Hi FF,
Everyone seems to understand what free will is.
But you say the question lacks definition.
Why make anything more complicated than it is?

Man = every Homo sapien born since and including Adam and Eve. (Adam and Eve not being technically born of the flesh)
Choose - They are able make a choice that will ensure their unending future life in heaven or hell.
Free - not restricted by an external force
So we have "will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".

Please reread the above and see if you could make it more understandable...
I think you left out some thoughts.
You said:

"will every person (man) able to make an externally unhindered decision that will determine their future destiny in heaven or hell".
??

The question, as I have interpreted it, is easily proved in the negative if we have empirical evidence that shows:
1) there is any person (man) that is externally hindered (not free) from a decision (choice) that will determine in a future in heaven or hell.

Empirical Evidence curtisy of Dr. Google:

1. The Death rate in 1800 for people under 5 (assumes age of accountability is 5) was 40%, in 1940 it was 24%, 1990 it was 10%, 2016 it was 4%.
2. From 2010-2014, an estimated 25% of global pregnancies (including spontaneous miscarriages) ended in abortion.
3. The 6 million-plus pregnancies in 1996 in the U.S. resulted in 3.9 million births, 1.3 million induced abortions, and almost a million fetal deaths. This means that 62 percent of pregnancies ended in a live birth, 22 percent ended in abortion, and 16 percent ended in a miscarriage or stillbirth. Another source said that abortions are down to 13% while miscarriages are at 20% for a total of 33%.

So, we have billions of persons who had NO CHOICE to make that will be in heaven or hell. Thus, to the question at hand: "is man free to choose" the answer is a resounding an overwhelmingly demonstrable, NO!

I still don't understand. Sorry.
Are you saying that because a person is raised in some type of family or other, their answer will thus be determined?

Let me make it simple for you:

Do you have a free choice when making a moral decision?
If you chose A, would you also have been free to choose B?

FREE means with no outside coercion, but based totally on your own decision.

Job 14:5 (New International Version) says this … “ A person’s days are determined; you (God) have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed.”
.....from this we conclude that God does determines whether or not the billions of person's eluded to in the empirical data above will spend a future destiny is in heaven or hell.

Well, really No.
From this we can determine that the Lord giveth and the Lord can take away.
I see from your statement no mention of accepting or rejecting God.
(as is necessary for salvation or damnation).

Aside: No need to consider the 1232 N.A.Indian's "freedom to choose" as substantial and overwhelming evidence has already been provided to answer the question of the thread. According to https://reachbeyond.org/Advocate/RBActionGuide.pdf : More than 2 billion people have never heard the salvation message even today. This relates to Romans 10:17

No http address could determine if our Indian friend from 1232AD is saved or lost IF he believes in God Almighty.
Maybe we could have a thread on this one day.

But for now....
You have yet to show me, biblically, where and how God took away our free will.
Adam and Eve had it.

It was also present in Numbers 15:3
3then make an offering by fire to the LORD, a burnt offering or a sacrifice to fulfill a special vow, or as a freewill offering or in your appointed times, to make a soothing aroma to the LORD, from the herd or from the flock.

God was asking for a freewill offering.
Did He also determine from before time what the person would choose as the freewill offering? (the amount).



Free will was also present in Deuteronomy 8:19
19“It shall come about if you ever forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you will surely perish.

God was giving Israel the power to destroy some heathen nations. Did God now know if they would forget Him or not?
This shows free will to remember God or to forget Him.


Joshua 24:15
15“If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Joshua is telling the Israelites that they have A CHOICE: To serve God or to serve other gods.


Please reply to the biblical verses and to your understanding of them.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

More FACTUAL EVIDENCE that we are not FREE to decide to believe.

Definition of FREE ... not restricted/affected by an external force(s)
Definition of Believe/Belief/Faith - the consequences of which lead to a person being in heaven after death according to protestants.

Source: Pew Research Center https://www.pewforum.org/2016/10/26/one-in-five-u-s-adults-were-raised-in-interfaith-homes/
View attachment 10441

Interesting study.
Among children raised in a SINGLE religion:
Among Protestants 79% of the children were protestant, 3% became R.C. and 18% were unaffiliated
Among R.C.s 16% of the children were protestant, 62% became R.C. and 22% were unaffiliated
Among unaffiliated 28% of the children were protestant, 7% became R.C. and 65% were unaffiliated

Conclusion: Empirical evidence denies that possibility that people are unaffected (FREE) from external forces (parental upbringing) in regards to having salvific faith.

This is your second Pew Research post.

Two comments:

1. So you believe that the FAMILY one is raised in decided who is going to heaven or hell???

2. if, according to you, free will means we are not affected by outside forces:
A. What exactly does this mean?
B. Who or what would be the outside force?


Again, please show us, biblically, when free will was taken away from man.

 

[GodsGrace]

This topic always gets a lot of discussion on the pros and cons.
Studying the bible and this topic over many years will usually help some people come to a sound conclusion, while others never get there.

Younger people think they know everything with little knowledge until they get to our age .
Not much wisdom in the youth except in their own minds ?.

I would have to agree.
If a calvinist would stop listening to MAN
and just concentrate on the N.T., he would soon come to realize that
God is sovereign and almighty, and that He does not fear giving man free will.
The bible is full of instances where free will is supported and if God is a just God,
He will hold us responsible for our sins because it was our choice to commit them.