IS MAN UNABLE TO SEEK GOD...

[electedbyHim]

6 of 6


The above is not true. All religions understand that man is born depraved.
This is why God had to send His Son to be an atonement for sins.
The doctrine of total depravity as understood by calvinism is rejected because it was never believed in Christianity until John Calvin and M. Luther came up with this idea in the 1,500's.

This also removes man's free will.
Do you believe you do NOT have free will?

The only free will I had as a non Christian was to choose sin.
Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, carry us away.

 

[GodsGrace]

It’s clear writing “all of” makes you feel like you’ve made a concrete statement but Calvin invented this theory or maybe one can say Aristotle did. Not a single person who wrote the Bible said this about man.

Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

There's a name for the above.
It's called the sinful nature.
Whether you agree or not, man is born with it.

I used the word depraved because I was addressing calvinism.

There’s no moral position lower. That God called some “righteous”demonstrates this is not Gods view of man.

And yet God never says this to any man about man.

Well, it’s not a “nature” we cannot help and therefore aren’t responsible that Jesus died for our actual sin.

No, because the Bible says over and over again that so and so sought God. It’s a repeated theme.

No, God actually said in Deuteronomy that the law given was NOT too difficult for man. I mean, how hard is it it to murder?

The Calvinists, not all the Reformers. That’s calvinist doctrine.

Well, The “rest” don’t have just one united view.


There are too many examples of different experiences to lump them into one explanation. But it’s clear WE, not God, are responsible for choosing to respond.

Sometimes D, I wonder if you really read what I write.
I can't answer any of the above because I didn't say anything of what you're responding to.

 

[GodsGrace]

I too believe this is the way.

We must first seek His face

Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Then we become Spiritually born again from above which is regeneration

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

At the time of regeneration as put on the new Spiritual inner man of Christ we are then only sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption as long as we do not grieve the Holy Spirit

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We are only saved at the end when Christ returns if we endure all the things of this world that will try and come against us

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Agreed on all.
But I have a question...
You said we are only saved at the end when Jesus returns.
This would be the resurrection of the body.
But don't you believe we are saved at the time of death?
(glorification).

 

[GodsGrace]

You got that right !

I found out you can put an entire sentence in the search box on Duckduckgo and get results . It helps that I use a pc and large monitor .

GotQuestions does get a lot right and they do give scripture links so we can proof them, so not all bad . They just don't seem to have anyone writing that has practical knowledge of the Gifts of The Holy Spirit .

Glad I could help :shades

I guess duckduckgo is a browser. Will check it out.
I also use a pc and monitor - I really can't write on a cell and it's too difficult to navigate attachments, etc.
If Got Questions is cessationist, they won't be writing articles on gifts of the Holy Spirit !

 

[GodsGrace]

The only free will I had as a non Christian was to choose sin.
Isa 64:6 For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, carry us away.

I agree with your first sentence.
Isaiah is speaking about how we cannot go to God and expect Him to accept us by only our good works.
We must have faith to be righteous in God's eyes.

 

[electedbyHim]

I agree with your first sentence.
Isaiah is speaking about how we cannot go to God and expect Him to accept us by only our good works.
We must have faith to be righteous in God's eyes.

Isaiah is also speaking of the depraved human heart.

We must have faith to be righteous in God's eyes.

That faith comes from God as a gift.

 

[hawkman]

I guess duckduckgo is a browser. Will check it out.
I also use a pc and monitor - I really can't write on a cell and it's too difficult to navigate attachments, etc.
If Got Questions is cessationist, they won't be writing articles on gifts of the Holy Spirit !

I have not tried this site on a cell , I don't even like it on a ipad , my eyes are not what they used to be , lol .

https://duckduckgo.com/

 

[for_his_glory]

Agreed on all.
But I have a question...
You said we are only saved at the end when Jesus returns.
This would be the resurrection of the body.
But don't you believe we are saved at the time of death?
(glorification).

If you mean physical death then we, who are Christ own, have died enduring all things of this world that could have caused us to lose our faith in Christ. We will then be the first part of the resurrection when Christ returns as we have no part of the second death as our names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 24:3 the disciples asked three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? From vs 4-12 Jesus tells the disciples of all things that must come first before He returns and then says in vs 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The end means either our end here on earth in physical death or those who are still alive in the end when Christ returns.

 

[for_his_glory]

As far as I have read on GotQuestions , they are not completely cessationist , just almost .

Do you have a link from GotQuestions that would indicate they are cessationist ?

Someone told me it's a Calvinist site. We just need to make sure whatever site we use that what they teach lines up with scripture as many try to make scripture line up with what they teach.

 

[GodsGrace]

Isaiah is also speaking of the depraved human heart.

Agreed.
This is why God destroyed the world with the flood.
Everyone had become so evil.
Genesis 6.

That faith comes from God as a gift.

Faith is a gift. This is true.
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

By God's good grace He saved us through faith (when we believed). (John 3:16)

Biblical theologians say that, by how the Greek is written,
the gifts in Ephesians 2:8 are:
Grace
Faith
Salvation

God is LOVE and He loves His creation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have not tried this site on a cell , I don't even like it on a ipad , my eyes are not what they used to be , lol .

https://duckduckgo.com/

Wow.
It doesn't track!
Freedom from

 

[GodsGrace]

If you mean physical death then we, who are Christ own, have died enduring all things of this world that could have caused us to lose our faith in Christ. We will then be the first part of the resurrection when Christ returns as we have no part of the second death as our names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Matthew 24:3 the disciples asked three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? From vs 4-12 Jesus tells the disciples of all things that must come first before He returns and then says in vs 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The end means either our end here on earth in physical death or those who are still alive in the end when Christ returns.

Agreed.
I have learned that we go where we belong at death.
Heaven or the other place.
And if the soul and spirit live on, then this is how it would have to be.

 

[Tenchi]

No. Cornelius was a saved person, why would he be wretched?
Romans 1:19 states that God has always revealed Himself to humankind.
Some respond with a yes, and some respond with a no.
Cornelius responded with a yes.

It was only after Peter spoke to Cornelius, explaining to him the Gospel, that Cornelius was born-again (along with several others), the Spirit coming upon him as Peter was doing so. (Acts 10:44) But Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing man, given to prayer without first being born-again, which quite confounds the view of the Reformed believer.

Thanks for bringing up such good examples of why the reformed are not correct in their theology.

You're welcome.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

So he destroyed the earth. Has He destroyed the earth since? If not, then this state hasn’t happened since. Wondering, do you just extract verses out of the Bible without considering the context and apply it wherever you want? That verse describes a state BEFORE THE FLOOD.

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Romans 8:7
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

None of those verses describe babies or small children. None. I know it comfort “all of us” to think that we are not responsible for an inborn sin nature” as it comforted Aristotle.

There's a name for the above.
It's called the sinful nature.
Whether you agree or not, man is born with it.

A sinful nature (adjective describes the noun) comes from sinning, not being born. Whether you agree or not, that’s the Biblical position.

I used the word depraved because I was addressing calvinism.

Yes, they have embraced that accusing humans of the worst wickedness description. They even had to “adjust” the meaning of the word.

Sometimes D, I wonder if you really read what I write.

I not only read it, I think about it, something rare.

I can't answer any of the above because I didn't say anything of what you're responding to.

Then we drop it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think an infant can be called "depraved." If he doesn't come under God's authority and control, he may, as he grows up, move toward depravity, disposed by his natural human selfishness to such behavior. But I don't see anything in God's word that indicates that a newborn baby is depraved.



We're all born separated from God because of Adam and therefore in a condition where we seek our own interests in a manner outside of God's direct control. This leads people into sin, and corruption, and death. But no one in their cradle is yearning for such things.



No. Consider Cornelius:

Acts 10:1-2
1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Cornelius was not a Christian, nor a Jew, but a Gentile Roman centurion who was, in spite of his spiritual unregeneracy, called in Scripture a "devout man," "one who feared God," and who was dedicated to prayer. In fact, when Peter asks Cornelius' messengers about their master, the messengers answer:

Acts 10:22 (NASB)
22 They said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you."

How is this possible? Shouldn't Cornelius be a depraved wretch, utterly unable, because he is "dead in trespasses and sins," to be devout and God-fearing?

How is it that unregenerate Zacchaeus was seeking Christ, even climbing a tree to catch a glimpse of him? Zacchaeus was spiritually dead, wasn't he? Zacchaeus was totally depraved, and thus unable even to want to seek out Christ, if Reformed believers have it right. But we read of Zacchaeus in his spiritual deadness pursuing Jesus. Interesting, no?

There is no explicit statement anywhere in Scripture indicating that all people are utterly unable to seek God. This is "deduced" from God's word by Reformed folk, though such a deduction is by no means necessary.

www.soteriology101.com



Crazy, eh? The exact opposite of what Scripture actually says.



Well, Scripture does tell us that God draws people to Christ (John 6:44), and convicts them of their sin (John 16:8), and makes them capable of repentance (2 Timothy 2:25); but He doesn't compel unrepentant sinners into His kingdom, as the Reformed folk like to think. Having done these things, God leaves it to us to respond to the Gospel as we will.

Sometimes I think the tendency to call new born babies “depraved” is very akin to what the accuser of the brethren would say.

 

[GodsGrace]

It was only after Peter spoke to Cornelius, explaining to him the Gospel, that Cornelius was born-again (along with several others), the Spirit coming upon him as Peter was doing so. (Acts 10:44) But Cornelius was a devout, God-fearing man, given to prayer without first being born-again, which quite confounds the view of the Reformed believer.

I'd say that if a man is devout and God-fearing he is certainly saved.
I always refer to Romans 1:19-20.
I don't believe it's up to us to declare who is born again and who is not.

You're welcome.

 

[GodsGrace]

So he destroyed the earth. Has He destroyed the earth since? If not, then this state hasn’t happened since. Wondering, do you just extract verses out of the Bible without considering the context and apply it wherever you want? That verse describes a state BEFORE THE FLOOD.

So before the flood mankind became wicked and after the flood mankind became good?
Could you post some verses that state we are born good, in a saved condition?

None of those verses describe babies or small children. None. I know it comfort “all of us” to think that we are not responsible for an inborn sin nature” as it comforted Aristotle.

I don't remember much about Aristotle.
Maybe you're getting philosophy mixed up with theology? (although they do go together)
I'm not comforted by an inborn sin nature Dorothy.
I wish you'd stop saying this.
The sin nature is why the world is in a mess...because most of its population does not practice their faith.
Instead of turning to God to please God, they please themselves and the evil one.
What do you suppose makes them do this?
I don't know any Christian that is happy about the sinful nature of man. (until he becomes born again).

A sinful nature (adjective describes the noun) comes from sinning, not being born. Whether you agree or not, that’s the Biblical position.

You're going to have to prove that the sinful nature comes from sinning.
I've learned from 3 different churches that sinning comes from the sinful nature.
The opposite of what you believe.
I've posted many verses,,,,can you do the same?

 

[Tenchi]

I'd say that if a man is devout and God-fearing he is certainly saved.

Oh? Is this what the Bible says? Was Cornelius saved, that is, born-again, before the Spirit came upon him as Peter was speaking to him? How would that be possible since spiritual regeneration is the result of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within a person? (Romans 8:9-11)

I always refer to Romans 1:19-20.
I don't believe it's up to us to declare who is born again and who is not.

While every person has some innate sense of God's existence, this sense by no means, in-and-of itself, saves a person. Salvation is in a Person, Jesus Christ (John 3:36; 1 John 5:11-12; Acts 4:12), who saves us by placing his Spirit, the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9), within us (Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13). This is the only way salvation is obtained by a person.

Paul thought we could assess both ourselves and others regarding the genuineness of salvation:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 (NASB)
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Here, Paul indicated that the individual believer has the means of assessing the genuineness of their own spiritual birth; and then he wrote that the Corinthian believers could do the same with himself and determine whether or not he "failed the test" of being truly in the faith. If we can't know this, as you assert, then Paul badly misspoke here, don't you think?

 

[GodsGrace]

Oh? Is this what the Bible says? Was Cornelius saved, that is, born-again, before the Spirit came upon him as Peter was speaking to him? How would that be possible since spiritual regeneration is the result of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within a person? (Romans 8:9-11)



While every person has some innate sense of God's existence, this sense by no means, in-and-of itself, saves a person. Salvation is in a Person, Jesus Christ (John 3:36; 1 John 5:11-12; Acts 4:12), who saves us by placing his Spirit, the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9), within us (Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13). This is the only way salvation is obtained by a person.

Paul thought we could assess both ourselves and others regarding the genuineness of salvation:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 (NASB)
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.

Here, Paul indicated that the individual believer has the means of assessing the genuineness of their own spiritual birth; and then he wrote that the Corinthian believers could do the same with himself and determine whether or not he "failed the test" of being truly in the faith. If we can't know this, as you assert, then Paul badly misspoke here, don't you think?

Too late here T...but will reply tomorrow.
We're going to get into those that have never heard of Jesus.
Here's a question in the meantime:
Is GOD JESUS?
Is JESUS GOD?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So before the flood mankind became wicked and after the flood mankind became good?

Do you know why God destroyed mankind except 8 people and pairs of animals? Do you think they were just like us, but unlucky living at that time? Read the account, they weren’t.

Could you post some verses that state we are born good, in a saved condition?

Who says that we were? Do you read what I write?

I don't remember much about Aristotle.
Maybe you're getting philosophy mixed up with theology? (although they do go together)

My mistake, I meant Augustine who had a very sordid past and needed an excuse as to why he was. Born that way relieved his conscience. Relieved others since.

I'm not comforted by an inborn sin nature Dorothy.

oh yes you are. You kept looking for a reason why sin entered the world besides the one the Bible gives. Sin comes out of our own hearts. You wanted to find a source outside of us.

I wish you'd stop saying this.
The sin nature is why the world is in a mess...because most of its population does not practice their faith.

I assure you, those who practice faith make the world a worse place too at times. And this is exactly what I’m saying. You blame a sin nature we cannot help. It’s not our fault. Comforts the conscience.

Instead of turning to God to please God, they please themselves and the evil one.

Really they are pleasing themselves.

What do you suppose makes them do this?

“They want and don’t have. They don’t have because they don’t ask.” That’s the biblical answer.

I don't know any Christian that is happy about the sinful nature of man. (until he becomes born again).

Oh yes, they believe sin isn’t their fault. They were born that way. Some even ask God to forgive their sin nature they cannot help.

You're going to have to prove that the sinful nature comes from sinning.
I've learned from 3 different churches that sinning comes from the sinful nature.

Truth isn’t subject to a vote. Did you ask Jesus? And you need to prove babies sin because they have a sin nature. Ask Free for help. He insists babies can not only talk, they’re able to lie (a higher brain requirement.) What can one say to those who love their theology so much they insist something so obviously untrue is true? He hasn’t been around many babies, I assume.

The opposite of what you believe.
I've posted many verses,,,,can you do the same?

None of your verse say man is BORN with a sin nature. None. The term doesn’t appear in the whole of the Bible. It says man has a propensity to sin ONCE he reaches the age of moral understanding (youth.) No where does it say infants are sinners.

I have posted scriptures on this and they do speak to the matter.

But once given an external excuse for their sin, it’s hard to give up that excuse.