Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

IS MAN UNABLE TO SEEK GOD...

I agree with your first sentence.
Isaiah is speaking about how we cannot go to God and expect Him to accept us by only our good works.
We must have faith to be righteous in God's eyes.
This is a bit off the thread but only a bit, I wonder if a man can even do good to others (works) without faith. Suppose a man believes you reap what you sow. (biblical) That’s a faith matter. That man believes there’s a God or power that deals in justice and curbs his dealings with others accordingly.

Does that mean works save? Not at all because good works do not make up for the wrong we do. We have dirtied our hearts and hands by the wrong we did and cannot make ourselves clean by our works. That’s where God’s salvation comes in to play.

But since it cannot be denied that each of us, even Putin, is capable of doing some good now and again. Why can’t God call to the bit in a man that longs for truth and goodness BEFORE the man is changed without his consent?
 
Do you know why God destroyed mankind except 8 people and pairs of animals? Do you think they were just like us, but unlucky living at that time? Read the account, they weren’t.

Who says that we were? Do you read what I write?

My mistake, I meant Augustine who had a very sordid past and needed an excuse as to why he was. Born that way relieved his conscience. Relieved others since.

oh yes you are. You kept looking for a reason why sin entered the world besides the one the Bible gives. Sin comes out of our own hearts. You wanted to find a source outside of us.

I assure you, those who practice faith make the world a worse place too at times. And this is exactly what I’m saying. You blame a sin nature we cannot help. It’s not our fault. Comforts the conscience.

Really they are pleasing themselves.

“They want and don’t have. They don’t have because they don’t ask.” That’s the biblical answer.

Oh yes, they believe sin isn’t their fault. They were born that way. Some even ask God to forgive their sin nature they cannot help.

Truth isn’t subject to a vote. Did you ask Jesus? And you need to prove babies sin because they have a sin nature. Ask Free for help. He insists babies can not only talk, they’re able to lie (a higher brain requirement.) What can one say to those who love their theology so much they insist something so obviously untrue is true? He hasn’t been around many babies, I assume.

None of your verse say man is BORN with a sin nature. None. The term doesn’t appear in the whole of the Bible. It says man has a propensity to sin ONCE he reaches the age of moral understanding (youth.) No where does it say infants are sinners.

I have posted scriptures on this and they do speak to the matter.

But once given an external excuse for their sin, it’s hard to give up that excuse.

Ambassador Hat On

Dorothy
You're breaking TOS rules AGAIN.
I'm very tempted to report this post.
I'm going to stop posting to you because you have repeatedly misrepresented my position.
You cannot tell me what I believe about something or why I start a thread.
Only I know that.
You're only to reply to my actual post.

Do not reply to this post on this thread.
That is also breaking TOS rules.
 
Oh? Is this what the Bible says? Was Cornelius saved, that is, born-again, before the Spirit came upon him as Peter was speaking to him? How would that be possible since spiritual regeneration is the result of the Holy Spirit coming to dwell within a person? (Romans 8:9-11)

Sure. Why not?
He was DEVOUT
GOD-FEARING
HE PRAYED TO GOD REGULARLY
and
He taught his household to do the same, more than I can say for some families these days.

I'd say the Holy Spirit was with him.
How do you know He wasn't?
How does Romans 8:9-11 prove anything?

While every person has some innate sense of God's existence, this sense by no means, in-and-of itself, saves a person. Salvation is in a Person, Jesus Christ (John 3:36; 1 John 5:11-12; Acts 4:12), who saves us by placing his Spirit, the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9), within us (Titus 3:5; 1 John 4:13). This is the only way salvation is obtained by a person.

If a person has an innate sense of God...which is biblical...
AND they choose to worship God and live accordingly...
they are saved indeed.
Is it God that saves us or not?

Paul thought we could assess both ourselves and others regarding the genuineness of salvation:

2 Corinthians 13:5-6 (NASB)
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test.
Not everyone knows about testing.
Not everyone has read the bible.
But they're Christian anyway by their belief in God and their manner of living.
Here, Paul indicated that the individual believer has the means of assessing the genuineness of their own spiritual birth; and then he wrote that the Corinthian believers could do the same with himself and determine whether or not he "failed the test" of being truly in the faith. If we can't know this, as you assert, then Paul badly misspoke here, don't you think?
No. Paul never misspoke.
I said that some never read Paul's writings.

Do you believe only those that know theology could be saved?
 
Truth isn’t subject to a vote. Did you ask Jesus? And you need to prove babies sin because they have a sin nature. Ask Free for help. He insists babies can not only talk, they’re able to lie (a higher brain requirement.) What can one say to those who love their theology so much they insist something so obviously untrue is true? He hasn’t been around many babies, I assume.
If you're not willing to think critically and even try to understand what I said, even though I explained and made it clear, that's on you. Stop misrepresenting what I have said. That is a violation of the ToS.
 
Sure. Why not?
He was DEVOUT
GOD-FEARING
HE PRAYED TO GOD REGULARLY
and
He taught his household to do the same, more than I can say for some families these days.

I'd say the Holy Spirit was with him.
How do you know He wasn't?
How does Romans 8:9-11 prove anything?

Well, we know the Spirit wasn't "with him" (though, I'm not sure what you mean by this) because it was only when Peter was speaking to Cornelius about the Gospel that the Spirit came upon Cornelius (and others).

I cited Romans 8:9-11 because it clearly explains that spiritual life is only found in the Person of the indwelling Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, not in beliefs or religious practices.

If a person has an innate sense of God...which is biblical...
AND they choose to worship God and live accordingly...
they are saved indeed.
Is it God that saves us or not?

Yes, God saves us - through His Son, our Savior. About him, about Christ, the Bible is unequivocal and repeated in its declaration that only in, and through, him is salvation obtained.

John 1:11-12 (NASB)
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 3:16 (NASB)
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 (NASB)
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 14:6 (NASB)
6 Jesus *said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 15:6 (NASB)
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

1 John 5:11-12 (NASB)
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Acts 4:12 (NASB)
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


Not everyone knows about testing.
Not everyone has read the bible.
But they're Christian anyway by their belief in God and their manner of living.

Not so. See above.

No. Paul never misspoke.
I said that some never read Paul's writings.

Do you believe only those that know theology could be saved?

Only those who know Christ as their Savior are saved. Which is why Paul wrote:

Romans 10:12-15 (NASB)
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"


Many are the stories I've heard over the years of people in remote places, or in places destitute of the Gospel, who were desiring to know God, to walk with Him, to whom God sent a bearer of the Good News. As you might imagine, some of these stories are quite incredible, illustrating that God truly does near those who draw near to Him, overcoming all barriers in getting the Gospel to those who desire to know and walk with Him. But this is important: In every, single instance God sent a messenger of the Gospel to these people. Muslims, atheists, convicts, African tribespeople, homosexuals, drug addicts - you name it - I've heard so many tales of God reaching out to the lost with the Good News of salvation in order to bring the lost into relationship with Himself. Why? If, as you believe, these folks are already saved by simply obeying what "light" they have, what need have they of the Gospel? They need only to continue to do as they've been doing, right? The Savior is unnecessary, it seems to me, under this sort of thinking. This makes me think of Pauls' words, however:

1 Corinthians 16:22 (NASB)
22 If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.
 
Apparently puritans regarded babies and children as depraved. And…

Today’s idealized understanding of kids marriage and family didn’t trickle down to the masses until the late 19th century. Not that family life was always brutal until then but…

Child labor laws didn’t protect the working and lower class kids until the late 19th century and into the 20th century. Marriage gradually became something viewed as a loving union around the same time as social and economic changes allowed such views to trickle down to the middle classes. Morbid fact: child and infant mortality was so high in centuries past that it was somewhat common for parents to reuse the names of deceased children. Eek 😥

Rambling…

My point is that at this point in many modern cultures we’re not comfortable with total depravity in part because of social and economic progress that leads us to want to shelter nurture and sometimes even idealize babies and children. Sad fact: in the USA something like 1 in 6 children deal with food insecurity on a regular basis. So it’s a lot of good ideas a safety net would be nice.

For most of human history life was short nasty and brutish. I try to keep that in mind as I read Scripture. And…

In all likelihood no one has done more to improve the lives of the masses than Jesus Christ. 😎
 
None of your verse say man is BORN with a sin nature. None. The term doesn’t appear in the whole of the Bible. It says man has a propensity to sin ONCE he reaches the age of moral understanding (youth.) No where does it say infants are sinners.
A sinner is one who has sinned.
A newborn child has no sin. Thus, a newborn child cannot be called a sinner. If we want to call a newborn child a sinner, then we must be able to point to a specific sinful event and being born is not a sin.

This being said, we are born with a sinful nature just as a Adam was created with a sinful nature. In other words, an infant has the propensity to sin so given the opportunity, sin will eventually occur. This is true of Adam. Adam was created with the propensity to sin, and when the opportunity arose, he sinned. One is not a sinner without the act of sin where a law can be enforced to convict against the trespass.

Many people confuse the sin nature with the doctrine of original sin. I do not believe they are one in the same.

Psalm 139 says we are beautifully and wonderfully made.
 
We're all born separated from God because of Adam and therefore in a condition where we seek our own interests in a manner outside of God's direct control. This leads people into sin, and corruption, and death. But no one in their cradle is yearning for such things.
I don’t believe this. Sin separates us from God and a newborn is without sin. If you say a newborn is a sinner, then using Gods laws, you must show me which law a newborn has committed. Without a law to convict, there are no trespasses.

Regarding Adam, it was his sin that separated him from God. The consequence of Adams sin was death and death has rippled through the centuries for each millennium since Adam.

An infant does not inherit Adams sin. However, an infant does experience the ripple from Adams consequences.

This is true of any sin. For example, let’s say I steal food from a poor family. I may go to jail, but the family I stole from does not. However, they do experience the consequences of my theft by going hungry.

God teaches us to be hospitable and to give to those in need. Stealing from those in need works against what God desires of us. So because a thief steals from somebody in need, they are not being a blessing as God desires.
 
Romans 5:12-21

It’s pretty much to Adam that we are born in sin complete with a sin nature. Depravity is apparently a universal human trait and we’re all born as such. And then…

Each individual’s personal sins start piling on….

Jesus Christ is the answer. The question becomes are human beings capable of pursuing Him and receiving Him without some sort of divine intervention?
 
I don’t believe this. Sin separates us from God and a newborn is without sin. If you say a newborn is a sinner, then using Gods laws, you must show me which law a newborn has committed. Without a law to convict, there are no trespasses.

Romans 5:12-21 (NASB)
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—


Paul here explains that through the sin of Adam, death entered the world, spreading to all human beings who, like Adam, also sin. Sin and death are directly linked by Paul in this verse, though he doesn't go so far as to say that the "one man" through whom sin and death entered the world had "infected" all his offspring with a sin-curse, making them all guilty of sin before they even departed the womb.

13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I read this verse and wonder immediately about the Great Flood of Genesis 6-8. Long before the Law of Moses was given, the Great Flood was a judgment of God upon the evil deeds of human beings. This verse, though, seems to indicate that without the Law the sins of mankind would not have been imputed to it. Why, then, were they judged?

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

Here, again, Paul emphasizes that death is the result of the Fall in Eden; and "death" throughout Scripture is indicative of separation, the soul from the body, the living from the deceased, the loving Father from his Prodigal Son, the believer from the power of the "old man" and sin, and the unrepentant sinner eternally from their holy Maker. The sin of Adam separated all of humanity from the divine fellowship of Eden, the first couple ejected from the Garden forever and no human thereafter walking in communion with God in it, as they did.

15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.


Now things get a bit...murky. Speaking of Adam's sin, Paul writes, "...the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation...", offering this in direct, contrasting, parallel to Christ's justifying gift of salvation, obtained through his atonement, once for all, for the sin of humanity (Hebrews 10:1-18; Romans 6:10). The Savior's justification extends to all who will receive it; does this mean, then, that Adam's sin (not just it's effect, which is death) extends to all in some way, too? This is what seems to be implied in the parallel...

17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.


Here, Paul indicates that, not only does the separation of death (spiritual and physical) come out of Adam's sin upon all of humanity, but divine condemnation, also. Is Paul saying that Adam's sin, all by itself, brings us under that condemnation? This is what seems evident in his words, "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men."

19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


Paul appears to pin our sinfulness upon Adam pretty directly in this verse, don't you think? By "one man's disobedience the many were made sinners." Apparently, not only did Adam's sin separate us from God, and bring us under His condemnation, but Adam's disobedience has made sinners of us all, in some way, too.

20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


What a wonderfully encouraging pair of verses! Despite Adam's destructive sin, God's grace has abounded to sinners, reigning over sin, and freeing us all from the spiritual separation, condemnation and sin that Adam laid upon us.

Romans 5:8-10 (NASB)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

An infant does not inherit Adams sin. However, an infant does experience the ripple from Adams consequences.

Yes, I don't think I've said otherwise.
 
Tenchi
First, I agree with about 98% of what you’ve written, and you have articulated yourself quiet well. So please don’t think I’m cherry picking our differences.
I especially liked what you wrote pre flood. I have pondered the same thoughts and verses you’ve so well articulated. Well done.

The sin of Adam separated all of humanity from the divine fellowship of Eden, the first couple ejected from the Garden forever and no human thereafter walking in communion with God in it, as they did.
The Tabernacle represented Eden in many ways. It was a place where God and man could share what Adam and God shared in the garden. Prior to the flood, I believe Enoch shared that intimate relationship with God, much like Adam.

Yes, the sin of Adam brought forth death and separated the union God had with Adam / humanity in the garden. But it also brought forth a curse to the ground as Paul writes later in Romans that the whole earth groans.

I don’t think a newborn is separated from God at birth. Instead, I believe that as the child grows, and becomes accountable for the sins he / she commits they separate themselves from God in the same way Paul writes earlier in Romans that we can store up wrath for ourselves because of an unrepentant heart. I believe it is this hardening of our heart that separates us from God. This hardening of our heart brings about our spiritual death and in this way, we are no different than Adam.

I do apologize that I did not articulate myself as well as you have. I am writing on my phone without my glasses.
 
We're all born separated from God because of Adam and therefore in a condition where we seek our own interests in a manner outside of God's direct control. This leads people into sin, and corruption, and death. But no one in their cradle is yearning for such things.
After many great posts from all in this thread I have finally had it take hold in my mind what to say .

Separated from God because Adam got mankind kicked out of the Garden of Eden and we lost God's direct control .

What Adam gave to all of mankind to follow is the knowledge of good and evil and could this be called "sin nature " ? A good question, but is there an answer ? wondering

A human equipped with the knowledge of good and evil, living in a fallen world is going to sin unless there is divine intervention .
 
Regarding Adam, it was his sin that separated him from God. The consequence of Adams sin was death and death has rippled through the centuries for each millennium since Adam.

An infant does not inherit Adams sin. However, an infant does experience the ripple from Adams consequences.

This is true of any sin. For example, let’s say I steal food from a poor family. I may go to jail, but the family I stole from does not. However, they do experience the consequences of my theft by going hungry.
The infant that is the wicked, are estranged from the womb. As soon as born, there is the spirit inside that speaks lies. On top of that, they will never hear the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely, because of that spirit that is inside, and being children of the devil, who again, as Christ links this all together for us, the devil is that father of lies, a murderer from the beginning ( in Cain) and speaks lies as they are his own, as are the wicked, who speak lies as soon as they be born, because that spirit, who is their father, is with them from then..





Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
4 Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
5 Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
Sin is unbelief in Jesus Christ being risen from the dead.

That is why all in Adam are un unbelief, as we saw the case with Adam.

But we now know the case of Jesus Christ, is different from that, it is the faith of Jesus Christ, to overcome the death brought on all through that disbelief and then disobedience of Adam, b the obedience ( and faith) of Christ to the death of the cross, to be highly exalted, to raise us all up to Heaven with Him, when we believe in His faithfulness.





Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.






Articulation is not what saves us, but the preaching of the cross of Christ is what saves. The wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

Abraham believed God ( not good communicators.) and we have the same faith to be the children of faith. Now we bow down to Christ, not man, and that is working out our salvation with fear and trembling...





Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
If man was able to seek God, man would be very attentive to hear Gods words of the preaching of the cross, which is how and why we are saved from death, as it is that life that saves us.

But, all seem to prefer fables, vanity, instead of just determined to know Jesus Christ and Him crucified. So that is your thread question answered, without needing to go into any discussions at all. ( apart from the fables as foretold.)





1 Corinthians 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.



2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 
After many great posts from all in this thread I have finally had it take hold in my mind what to say .

Separated from God because Adam got mankind kicked out of the Garden of Eden and we lost God's direct control .

What Adam gave to all of mankind to follow is the knowledge of good and evil and could this be called "sin nature " ? A good question, but is there an answer ? wondering

A human equipped with the knowledge of good and evil, living in a fallen world is going to sin unless there is divine intervention .
Well, by jove Hawkman, I think you've got it !

The only thing I'd like to say is that we were never under God's control, as you've stated in the sentence above.
I do believe they were under His influence, but they were not under God's control because if Adam and Eve were, then God would be responsible for their sin, and of course, He is not. They had free will to eat the fruit or not eat it.
Maybe you just misspoke?
 
Well, by jove Hawkman, I think you've got it !

The only thing I'd like to say is that we were never under God's control, as you've stated in the sentence above.
I do believe they were under His influence, but they were not under God's control because if Adam and Eve were, then God would be responsible for their sin, and of course, He is not. They had free will to eat the fruit or not eat it.
Maybe you just misspoke?
What control did God have over Adam ? God did place Adam in the Garden of Eden, maybe control is not the best word for what was going on. Adam did loose God as a friend that he talked with regular, at least we are not told of more conversations between Adam and God after Adam is cast out of the garden . Now we, as Christians, have Jesus as a friend we can talk to !
 
Yes, no interest in the preaching of the cross here.

Beginning from Adam, ( and never ending till now also) all in Adam die.

This means there is neither control, influence, now interference, in all men perishing, the very same as Adam, and all in Adam. ( in the flesh)

Move onto the flood, and everybody is judged as unable to seek God, and the parallel we have here again, is that the same as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the day of the Son of man. Everybody yet unable to seek God, and everybody without any influence or interference from God, all people perish the same as they did at the condemnation of the old world.



1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
Back
Top