What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

brightfame52 said:
I dont have any problem with verses that say obey the Gospel. Eternal Life is nevertheless to be given only to as many as the Father giveth the Son Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John Gill writes:
Click to expand...
What's so great about John Gill's???

I rather like Barnes better: (John 17:2)


To as many as thou hast given him - See the notes at John 10:16; John 6:37. To all on whom the Father has purposed to bestow the blessings of redemption through his Son. God has a plan in all he does, extending to men as well as to other objects. One part of his plan was that the atonement of Christ should not be in vain. Hence he promised him that he should see of the travail of his soul and should be satisfied Isaiah 53:11; and hence the Saviour had the assurance that the Father had given him a portion of the human family, and would apply this great work to them. It is to be observed here that the Saviour in this prayer makes an important distinction between "all flesh" and those who were "given to him." He has power over all. He can control, direct, restrain them. Wicked men are so far under his universal dominion, and so far restrained by his power, that they will not be able to prevent his bestowing redemption on those were given him that is, all who will believe on him. Long ago, if they had been able, they would have banished religion from the world; but they are under the power of Christ, and it is his purpose that there shall be "a seed to serve him," and that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against his church. Men who oppose the gospel should therefore feel that they cannot prevent the salvation of Christians, and should be alarmed lest they be found "fighting against God."

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/17-2.htm



Now what do we do?
 
JLB said:
There's more verses that say "obey the Gospel".

The way we obey the Gospel is to repent.

The way we repent, turn to God in submission to Him and His kingdom is to confess Jesus as Lord.


By confessing Jesus as Lord we are commiting to serve and obey Him as Lord.

Its an eternal commitment to come under His authority and kingdom rule: to obey His commandments and laws.


When we turn to God, we are by default turning away from Satan as our lord.



JLB
Click to expand...
Well explained JLB ?
 
JLB said:
The Father giving the Son refers to His twelve disciples.

That is the context.


The prerequisite is obeying the Gospel.

The 12 disciples obeyed the Gospel and folliwed the Lord.



JLB
Click to expand...
I believe it is more than the twelve disciples. He prayed not only for them but for all who shall believe on Him through their word. That is in the context.
 
wondering said:
Let's see if you can see the word OFFER in the following:

I LIKE MY CUSTOMERS SO MUCH, THAT WHOEVER COMES TO MY STORE BY 9 A.M.
WILL RECEIVE A FREE TV.

What is the offer?
and
Is there a condition?
Click to expand...
I don't see the relevance, no scripture here. Please show scripture.
 
wondering said:
What's so great about John Gill's???

I rather like Barnes better: (John 17:2)


To as many as thou hast given him - See the notes at John 10:16; John 6:37. To all on whom the Father has purposed to bestow the blessings of redemption through his Son. God has a plan in all he does, extending to men as well as to other objects. One part of his plan was that the atonement of Christ should not be in vain. Hence he promised him that he should see of the travail of his soul and should be satisfied Isaiah 53:11; and hence the Saviour had the assurance that the Father had given him a portion of the human family, and would apply this great work to them. It is to be observed here that the Saviour in this prayer makes an important distinction between "all flesh" and those who were "given to him." He has power over all. He can control, direct, restrain them. Wicked men are so far under his universal dominion, and so far restrained by his power, that they will not be able to prevent his bestowing redemption on those were given him that is, all who will believe on him. Long ago, if they had been able, they would have banished religion from the world; but they are under the power of Christ, and it is his purpose that there shall be "a seed to serve him," and that "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against his church. Men who oppose the gospel should therefore feel that they cannot prevent the salvation of Christians, and should be alarmed lest they be found "fighting against God."

source: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/john/17-2.htm



Now what do we do?
Click to expand...
Gill has a opinion from studying the scriptures like you do or anyone else.
 
brightfame52 said:
I believe it is more than the twelve disciples. He prayed not only for them but for all who shall believe on Him through their word. That is in the context.
Click to expand...
John is writing about Jesus speaking to the Apostles....
It begins with chapter 14, if I remember correctly.
Jesus is speaking to the Apostles in the upper room before His arrest.
Chapter 17:1-26 is known as the Great Prayer (source: NASB preface).

If you notice John 17:3 states "that they MAY know Thee"....
May know Thee denotes freedom of choice...whether or not one wishes to believe.
 
brightfame52 said:
I don't see the relevance, no scripture here. Please show scripture.
Click to expand...
You have posted A LOT without scripture.
Could you do me the courtesy of responding to my question?
It will show that you do not read into sentences what they are stating.

Here it is again....please tell us if there is an offer in the following
and what that offer is.

Your failure to reply will prove that you do not care to answer the question
because it will show your inability to read sentences correctly and to interpret
them correctly:

You have stated that there is NO OFFER in John 3:16....
So: (from my original post 241)

*********************************************************************

Let's see if you can see the word OFFER in the following:

I LIKE MY CUSTOMERS SO MUCH, THAT WHOEVER COMES TO MY STORE BY 9 A.M.
WILL RECEIVE A FREE TV.

What is the offer?
and
Is there a condition?
 
brightfame52 said:
Gill has a opinion from studying the scriptures like you do or anyone else.
Click to expand...
So what makes Gill so great that you should quote him?
Is Gill right or is Barnes right? I asked you how we could know.
Perhaps from the scriptures that are plainly and correctly read without
adding to them or twisting them to suit your needs?

You just got through telling me I need to post scripture or you won't even answer
a simple question.

Perhaps YOU can post scripture from now on instead of what a man thinks.

This is one of the problems with Calvinism. It believes on a MAN instead of on Jesus.
The followers quote other followers instead of the N.T.
You have certain verses you like and will cling to those....
and those that plainly state the opposite of what you believe are misunderstood, purposefully,
by you and those that believe as you do.
 
brightfame52 said:
No mention of a offer here. Thats read into the verse.
Click to expand...
Offer: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.
Proffer: hold out (something) to someone for acceptance; offer.

Sounds like John 3:16 is an offer (hold out to accept of reject) to me. Christ offers eternal life to anyone that believes. (Granted, the verse doesn't stipulate the specifics of the contract; but some sort of contract/offer is on the table)

The crux of the matter IMO is whether those to whom the offer is made desire to accept the offer and what caused them to accept/reject. Those questions are not alluded to in John 3:16 unless you make an assumption.

Example: I so love the people of the world that I will sell my home to anyone for $3M dollars. There is the offer I sincerely make. Now, is there anyone in the world that desires to accept this offer. Some might assume there is based on the idea that I would not make an offer that had no chance of being accepted.
 
brightfame52 said:
wondering



No mention of a offer here. Thats read into the verse.
Click to expand...
Well, that says a lot about you, doesn't it?
You read into verses plenty that is not there....
But it's rather inconvenient to read an offer in John 3:16.

Could you answer this?

Which of the following is correct?


John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.


John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Offer: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.
Proffer: hold out (something) to someone for acceptance; offer.

Sounds like John 3:16 is an offer (hold out to accept of reject) to me. Christ offers eternal life to anyone that believes. (Granted, the verse doesn't stipulate the specifics of the contract; but some sort of contract/offer is on the table)

The crux of the matter IMO is whether those to whom the offer is made desire to accept the offer and what caused them to accept/reject. Those questions are not alluded to in John 3:16 unless you make an assumption.

Example: I so love the people of the world that I will sell my home to anyone for $3M dollars. There is the offer I sincerely make. Now, is there anyone in the world that desires to accept this offer. Some might assume there is based on the idea that I would not make an offer that had no chance of being accepted.
Click to expand...
Agreed as to you understanding of the verse.
It does not specify clearly enough what the specifics of the contract are.
It does, however, use the word WHOEVER and the word BELIEVES is used.
Believes is an ongoing action and it does seem to infer choice.
The inference must come from other verses....
as you yourself have said, one cannot take one verse and make a doctrine out of it.

There are other verses that state the condition for salvation to take place.
The following DO explain HOW one comes to believe.

Acts 16:30-31 "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED".

John 5:50, 53 The Royal Official BELIEVED when Jesus said "Your son lives".

John 5:39-47 is also very clear:

39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
41“I do not receive glory from men;
42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.
43“I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
44“How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?
45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.
46“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me.
47“But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Denotes a free choice...
Jesus expected to be chosen by choice...
Seeking the glory that is from God is up to us...
The word IF is conditional and denotes free choice for belief in Moses....
Same as above....
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Offer: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.
Proffer: hold out (something) to someone for acceptance; offer.

Sounds like John 3:16 is an offer (hold out to accept of reject) to me. Christ offers eternal life to anyone that believes. (Granted, the verse doesn't stipulate the specifics of the contract; but some sort of contract/offer is on the table)

The crux of the matter IMO is whether those to whom the offer is made desire to accept the offer and what caused them to accept/reject. Those questions are not alluded to in John 3:16 unless you make an assumption.

Example: I so love the people of the world that I will sell my home to anyone for $3M dollars. There is the offer I sincerely make. Now, is there anyone in the world that desires to accept this offer. Some might assume there is based on the idea that I would not make an offer that had no chance of being accepted.
Click to expand...
John 3:16 says nothing about an offer.
 
wondering said:
Well, that says a lot about you, doesn't it?
You read into verses plenty that is not there....
But it's rather inconvenient to read an offer in John 3:16.

Could you answer this?

Which of the following is correct?


John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me.


John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
Click to expand...
Not here for games. Jn 3:16 says nothing aout an offer.
 
wondering said:
It does, however, use the word WHOEVER and the word BELIEVES is used.
Believes is an ongoing action and it does seem to infer choice.
Click to expand...
Agreed to everything above. I agree it is a choice also.

The cause of the choice is not stated. Using the verse alone the cause of the choice could have been the threat of putting an axe into ones chest.
"For whosoever believeth in me because someone threatened to put an axe into his chest shall not perish but have everlasting life.

wondering said:
as you yourself have said, one cannot take one verse and make a doctrine out of it.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree with myself ... most of the time.

wondering said:
There are other verses that state the condition for salvation to take place.
Click to expand...
The "condition" ???? Maybe you meant 'cause'. If that is what you mean, then I don't agree. The cause if found in John 1:12-13 (amongst others)

wondering said:
The word IF is conditional and denotes free choice for belief in Moses....
Click to expand...
I don't see the words "FREE CHOICE" in the verse. But, I agree that it is a "FREE CHOICE". The reason you freely chose to believe is God regenerated you, causing you willing to freely believe. This last statement is my belief, but that too is not found in the verse. You won't find a verse that stipulates the cause of salvific choice is man. You will find verses like John 1:12-13 that state the cause is God.
 
brightfame52 said:
John 3:16 says nothing about an offer.
Click to expand...
The verse does not use the word offer. I agree to that.

You need to define OFFER and than say why the verse is not an OFFER. That what I did.

Offer defined: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.
The SOMETHING is ETERNAL LIFE
The method of accepting or rejecting is BELIEF
Thus, we have an OFFER

If needed I can get the link to the definition I found. It was the first one on a list.

Even if you won't accept John 3:16 as proof of an offer by God to be saved ... there are many others verses that present an offer to be saved. That debate is about the small print, not whether God offers salvation or not.
 
Last edited:
brightfame52 said:
I believe it is more than the twelve disciples. He prayed not only for them but for all who shall believe on Him through their word. That is in the context.
Click to expand...

Were you born when Jesus prayed this prayer?

The direct context concerns His twelve disciples.

"Those whom you gave me" refer to His disciples that the Father gave Him.

Notice it says "they were in the world"...

Jesus died for the sins of the world.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16




JLB
 
[/QUOTE]
What can I Say, brother Bright, you have used the great trump card of Apostle Paul that " one is saved by grace through Faith and Not works ". It defeats every verse of Christ ( Matthew 7:21), John the apostle ( 1John 4:8), John the Baptist ( John 3:36 NASB), and Peter ( 1 Peter 3:21) that I quoted ( and wanted to quote)
It even overcomes Father God's caveat in Ezekiel 18:20 " The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."
We will have to pay for our choices on the last day. But then that's just my take, my interpretation.. My words and verses will always lose to the words of Apostle Paul. His words always trump my citations ( of verses). he is the hero of our faith. What am I? A big Zero...
You did well Bright by quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 for it decisively beats every verse I cited:cross.
May paul's verses prevail. I accept defeat in this debate brother Bright. Good job :)
Though I must cofress that the favorite verse of Paul for me is not Ephesians 2:8-9 but 2 Corinthians 12:16 "But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deception.
Pray love on you and all /\ /\ /\
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top