Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[GodsGrace]

Not here for games. Jn 3:16 says nothing aout an offer.

It's not a game brightfame if your soteriology is wrong.
It's not a game if you're teaching others incorrect theology --- the study of God.
It's not a game if you misrepresent God to others.
It's not a game if you tell others they can't be saved unless they wait around and they're lucky enough for God to pick them.
It's not a game if some in your family are not saved and maybe could be except you don't see the importance of preaching.

I could go on....

John 3:16 is an offer of salvation.
Because YOU don't see an offer there does NOT mean it is not present.

Are you stuck on John 3:16?
How about the rest of the bible?
What do you have to say about Acts 16:30-31?

 

[Fastfredy0]

@Fastfredy0 is well informed.
If I were you, I'd take the opportunity to learn from him.

Even though it goes against my best interests....

Wondering ... someone has "hacked into your account. You need to change your password immediately.
*giggles*
Aside: That being said, the "hacker" is quite perspective. 2

 

[brightfame52]

Were you born when Jesus prayed this prayer?

The direct context concerns His twelve disciples.

"Those whom you gave me" refer to His disciples that the Father gave Him.

Notice it says "they were in the world"...

Jesus died for the sins of the world.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16




JLB

No not all the Father gave to the Son were born at the time Christ prayed that prayer, but there were people born other than the disciples when He prayed that prayer. And there would be people born afterwards that the Father gave the Son, which Christ prayed for here Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also[I pray] which shall believe on me through their word;

I have mentioned this to you once before, are you not paying attention ?

If you believe Jn 17:2 can only apply to the 11 disciples, for judas was not there at the time, nor was he included, you are sadly mistaken. Christ was given all that come to Him Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not a game brightfame if your soteriology is wrong.
It's not a game if you're teaching others incorrect theology --- the study of God.
It's not a game if you misrepresent God to others.
It's not a game if you tell others they can't be saved unless they wait around and they're lucky enough for God to pick them.
It's not a game if some in your family are not saved and maybe could be except you don't see the importance of preaching.

I could go on....

John 3:16 is an offer of salvation.
Because YOU don't see an offer there does NOT mean it is not present.

Are you stuck on John 3:16?
How about the rest of the bible?
What do you have to say about Acts 16:30-31?

Jn 3:16 says nothing about an offer being made.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Jn 3:16 says nothing about an offer being made.

Maybe we should compromise.
Can we agree that there is an offer of salvation to everyone that hears the gospel? (admittedly, I have not defined 'The Gospel" ... which would be an interesting question in itself).

Aside: wondering has indicated that those that don't hear the gospel can be saved, but that is a story for another day.

 

[brightfame52]

wonder

Acts 16:30-31 "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND YOU SHALL BE SAVED".

Nothing about any condition here. believing isnt a condition for getting saved, and this verse doesnt say that it is,

If believing was a condition it would read ""BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS AND YOU SHALL GET SAVED"

It doesnt say that however, it says you shall be saved, believing in the Lord would show that one is in a saved state. The word BE makes that clear. The word BE is a statement of fact, the word get would indicate a condition to be met. The word be makes it clear that believing is a evidence of a saved state.

The dictionary says:

Be is used to indicate that someone or something has a particular quality or nature, or is in a particular situation.

So I would suggest you rethink Acts 16:31, or you will teach conditional works salvation by the doing of man. Thats condemned by scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe we should compromise.
Can we agree that there is an offer of salvation to everyone that hears the gospel? (admittedly, I have not defined 'The Gospel" ... which would be an interesting question in itself).

Aside: wondering has indicated that those that don't hear the gospel can be saved, but that is a story for another day.

No, I cant compromise that sir. I do acknowledge that there is a proclamation of the Gospel facts to everyone who is in the hearing of the preached word, but thats far different from an offer of salvation and or eternal life being offered to anyone. Even to them its given to, its never offered to them, its given.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, I cant compromise that sir. I do acknowledge that there is a proclamation of the Gospel facts to everyone who is in the hearing of the preached word, but thats far different from an offer of salvation and or eternal life being offered to anyone. Even to them its given to, its never offered to them, its given.

Hmmm, I think I see your point. We may be getting into semantics which is hiding the doctrine.
OFFER definition: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.

I would state the salvation is offered to all that hear the gospel; yet, the offer is useless because only those that are born again by the Spirit can except the offer. That those that are born again will, without exception, except the offer. In short, regeneration logically precedes conversion (faith + repentance). In short, I agree with you, SALVATION IS GIVEN. I just see salvation as an OFFER also which will never be accepted unless it is GIVEN.

I guess you define "offer" differently in that it implies the person to whom the offer is made is the cause of acceptance or rejection of the offer. Since, on his own he will never accept the offer ... then it's not a legitimate offer.

But, forget the word 'offer' ... just state the crux of the matter IMO. I agree, the to say salvation IS GIVEN is more succinct.

Aside: We can't see the forest(method of salvation) for the trees(semantics) IMO

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed to everything above. I agree it is a choice also.

You're agreeing to the fact that John 3:16 says WHOEVER and I understand why.
You're also agreeing that it's a choice. THIS I do not understand.
HOW is it a choice if you believe God has predestined everything, including who gets saved?

The cause of the choice is not stated. Using the verse alone the cause of the choice could have been the threat of putting an axe into ones chest.
"For whosoever believeth in me because someone threatened to put an axe into his chest shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I also understand the above.
However, there are many verses that DO state WHY one believes...in every case the person believes on his own with no coercion
from God. (It's coercion when it's not free will - real free will).

How do you understand Acts 16:30-31?

30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved...

Believe is a command. If it's not a command, it makes no sense -
It could have said: CRY and you will be saved. CRY is a command.

Yes, I agree with myself ... most of the time.

The "condition" ???? Maybe you meant 'cause'. If that is what you mean, then I don't agree. The cause if found in John 1:12-13 (amongst others)

No...I meant the condition to be saved.

And the condition is stated in the verses you posted:

John 1:12-13
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It says AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM....received Him of their own free will...to those who believe in His name.
I receive a gift that is offered...it's not forced on me.

I'd like to discuss THE WILL OF MAN, but of God....but no time now.
Later.

I don't see the words "FREE CHOICE" in the verse. But, I agree that it is a "FREE CHOICE". The reason you freely chose to believe is God regenerated you, causing you willing to freely believe. This last statement is my belief, but that too is not found in the verse. You won't find a verse that stipulates the cause of salvific choice is man. You will find verses like John 1:12-13 that state the cause is God.

How's this verse for you?

1 John 20:31
31but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John wrote his letters so that we may believe and that by believing we may have life in His name.

But now you bring up another problem with your belief system....
regeneration coming before faith.
IOW....you believe we get saved first and THEN we get faith.
How can that be if you believe
Ephesians 2:8-9??

For BY GRACE (God's love toward us) we have been saved THROUGH FAITH....
We are saved through faith...
It is faith that saves us....
Faith comes first and then we are saved.

This is simple English...please think it over.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Maybe we should compromise.
Can we agree that there is an offer of salvation to everyone that hears the gospel? (admittedly, I have not defined 'The Gospel" ... which would be an interesting question in itself).

Aside: wondering has indicated that those that don't hear the gospel can be saved, but that is a story for another day.

Please, define the Gospel for us.
The Gospel according to Jerry Seinfeld.
Please, I want to hear it.

 

[Fastfredy0]

You're also agreeing that it's a choice. THIS I do not understand.
HOW is it a choice if you believe God has predestined everything, including who gets saved?

Ah, the subtleties .... I believe it is a choice in that we are free (God is not stopping us) to chose to believe or not believe. I also contend that NO ONE CHOOSES to believe due to the depravity of man (I could list 40+ verses). Assuming a person has heard the gospel, then if the person is among the elect (chosen by God at some point in his life, I could list 40+ verses) he will be regenerated (born again). A that moment in time that person's disposition will be changes so that he freely of his own will chooses to believe.
Our systems are similar. I will take the liberty to states what I believe is yours:
Yours: We are all, without exception, depraved but God instills in everyone "libertarian free will" which is the ability to chose "A" or not "A" in the same circumstances. This is called 'prevenient grace' by most (you don't use the term) and is supported by 4ish verses (in theory). This fits in well with your opinion that God loves (volition to favor) everyone without exception the same. It also fits your notion of 'fairness'.
Mine: God, with 100% efficiency, changes the nature of those that He elected/chose/willed such that they freely and willing believe salvifically.

Analogy: Stranger offers people $1million tomorrow if they give him $10.
Your scenario: The stranger gives you a story that makes you think, "well maybe he's telling the truth. He does this to 1,000 people. Ten people take him up on the offer.
Your scenario: The stranger gives you a story and you are 100% sure it is true so you give him $10. The stranger does same thing to 9 others who all give him $10. Ten people take him up on the offer.

But now you bring up another problem with your belief system....
regeneration coming before faith.
IOW....you believe we get saved first and THEN we get faith.

This is a logical order. There is no time delay.

Not much sense use rehashing. We're to stuck in our ways to change.

Got to go to post office. Good night, sleep tight .. don't let the bedbugs bite. (so my dad say to me decades ago)

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe we should compromise.
Can we agree that there is an offer of salvation to everyone that hears the gospel? (admittedly, I have not defined 'The Gospel" ... which would be an interesting question in itself).

Aside: wondering has indicated that those that don't hear the gospel can be saved, but that is a story for another day.

Actually FF,,,,YOU believe that more than I do.

Do you actually believe that God chose and will choose to save ONLY those that hear the gospel?
Did He not choose to save anyone in the O.T.?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jn 3:16 says nothing about an offer being made.

Well Brighfame....just because you say so and keep repeating it does not make it so.
If you do NOT see an offer in John 3:16, perhaps you are also not understanding the
rest of the New Testament?

I'd be a bit worried if I were you.
But you're not me.....
Too bad, because we don't serve the same God.
Mine loves His creation...Yours does not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you actually believe that God chose and will choose to save ONLY those that hear the gospel?
Did He not choose to save anyone in the O.T.?

Well, as I said, I didn't define 'the gospel' so the statement lacks a detailed definition. In my statement I was referring to the necessary content of salvific FAITH as it stands today. (Aside: When I write about salvation I believe it is implicitly stated that I do not refer to anyone before the age of accountability or O.T. times. I could make an explicit statement to that effect on every post, but prefer not to.)

I am not an expert on what the content of faith was for people in the O.T. I am confident that it is different than today. Evidence: Even the disciples did not believe Christ would die and come back to life before He did so (I can get verses if needed). If belief in the 'death and resurrection of Christ' has always been necessary for salvation, then logically the disciples were not saved until after Christ arose from the grave. Since I believe the disciples (not Judas Iscariot) were saved before Christ death, I conclude the contents of salvation have changed.
Aside: In a sense everyone that has been or will be saved has always been seen ... God being eternal and we being known before the foundation of the earth. I don't allude to this either, as we creatures tend to speak in terms of past, future and present.
Aside2: Everyone in the N.T. and O.T. is saved by "Christ alone" and the rest of the sola's. The contents of "faith alone" presumably change as God reveals more information.
Hypotheical: It gets interesting when God reveals 1,000 new things ... which ones are needed to be believed to be saved ... what if you misunderstand what is to be believed ... had a friend that didn't believe the story of Jonah and thus didn't believe all of Scripture ... might need a lawyer ... If I'm right then it does matter as God will see to it that I have what is needed as the is HIS RESPONSIBILITY; if you're right we better make sure we have dotted the I's and crossed the T's as WHAT IS TO BE BELIEVED IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY ... but I digress

Yes, God chose to save people in the O.T. What the content of their faith was, I do not know. Hopefully, it wasn't the exclusive belief that the Dallas Cowboys would win a Super Bowl in that last 2 decades. ?

Did He not choose to save anyone in the O.T.?

I think from your point of view this statement should read: "Did He not choose to save anyone that chose Him in the O.T." (couldn't resist)

Goin' out for dinner ...yummy ... Fish and Chips

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Well, as I said, I didn't define 'the gospel' so the statement lacks a detailed definition. In my statement I was referring to the necessary content of salvific FAITH as it stands today. (Aside: When I write about salvation I believe it is implicitly stated that I do not refer to anyone before the age of accountability or O.T. times. I could make an explicit statement to that effect on every post, but prefer not to.)

I am not an expert on what the content of faith was for people in the O.T. I am confident that it is different than today. Evidence: Even the disciples did not believe Christ would die and come back to life before He did so (I can get verses if needed). If belief in the 'death and resurrection of Christ' has always been necessary for salvation, then logically the disciples were not saved until after Christ arose from the grave. Since I believe the disciples (not Judas Iscariot) were saved before Christ death, I conclude the contents of salvation have changed.
Aside: In a sense everyone that has been or will be saved has always been seen ... God being eternal and we being known before the foundation of the earth. I don't allude to this either, as we creatures tend to speak in terms of past, future and present.
Aside2: Everyone in the N.T. and O.T. is saved by "Christ alone" and the rest of the sola's. The contents of "faith alone" presumably change as God reveals more information.
Hypotheical: It gets interesting when God reveals 1,000 new things ... which ones are needed to be believed to be saved ... what if you misunderstand what is to be believed ... had a friend that didn't believe the story of Jonah and thus didn't believe all of Scripture ... might need a lawyer ... If I'm right then it does matter as God will see to it that I have what is needed as the is HIS RESPONSIBILITY; if you're right we better make sure we have dotted the I's and crossed the T's as WHAT IS TO BE BELIEVED IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY ... but I digress

Yes, God chose to save people in the O.T. What the content of their faith was, I do not know. Hopefully, it wasn't the exclusive belief that the Dallas Cowboys would win a Super Bowl in that last 2 decades. ?


I think from your point of view this statement should read: "Did He not choose to save anyone that chose Him in the O.T." (couldn't resist)

Goin' out for dinner ...yummy ... Fish and Chips

Well, it's about time you define the Gospel and set things straight.

 

[Walpole]

Well, it's about time you define the Gospel and set things straight.

I find most Protestants equate / define "the Gospel" with their belief in justification by faith alone.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Well, it's about time you define the Gospel and set things straight.

I doubt I will "set things straight" ... this is what I have to manifest the confusion. In the end, everyone can be partly right and partly wrong.​

​

Gospel – good news ... now for the confusion​

“The Gospel” is an ambiguous term for has a different meaning to each person. The word gospel means “good news”, but the contents of the good news varies from person to person.

In new testament terms the gospel is the proclamation of the person and work of Jesus Christ plus how the benefits of that work can be appropriated to us by faith and faith alone. R.C. Sproul

The Gospel of the kingdom: The kingdom over which Christ will rule for 1,000 years. 2 Samuel 7:16 And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.’” The kingdom is spoken of by John the Baptist, Christ and his disciples and ending with the Jewish rejection of the King. Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. (Matthew 3:1-2; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 10:5-7)

The Gospel of the Grace of God: This is the good news that Jesus Christ, the rejected King, has died on the cross for the sins of the world, that he was raised from the dead for our justification, and that by Him all that believe are justified from all things.

The Everlasting Gospel: Revelation 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people. This is preached at the end of the great tribulation immediately preceding the judgment of the nations. It is the good news to Israel and those saved during the Tribulation.

That which Paul calls, “my Gospel” (Romans 2:16, 1 Corinthians 15:2-4): This is the Gospel of the grace of God in its fullest development, but includes the revelation of the result of that Gospel in the out calling of the Church, her relationships, position, privileges and responsibilities. There is “another Gospel” (Galatians 1:6, 2 Corinthians 11:4) “which is not another,” but a perversion of the Gospel of grace of God, against which we are warned. It has many seductive forms, but the test is one – it invariably denies the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect and mingles with grace some kind of human merit.


The Person of Christ:
Mark 1:1 The beginning [of the facts] of the good news (the Gospel) of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Mark 1:14 Now after John was arrested and put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the good news (the Gospel) of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The [appointed period of] time is fulfilled (completed), and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent (have a change of mind which issues in regret for past sins and in change of conduct for the better) and believe (trust in, rely on, and adhere to) the good news (the Gospel).

Mark 8:35 For whoever wants to save his [higher, spiritual, eternal] life, will lose it [the lower, natural, temporal life which is lived only on earth]; and whoever gives up his life [which is lived only on earth] for My sake and the Gospel’s will save it [his higher, spiritual life in the eternal kingdom of God].

Mark 10:29 Jesus said, Truly I tell you, there is no one who has given up and left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands for My sake and for the Gospel’s

Mark 13:10 And the good news (the Gospel) must first be preached to all nations.

Mark 14:9 And surely I tell you, wherever the good news (the Gospel) is proclaimed in the entire world, what she has done will be told in memory of her.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach and publish openly the good news (the Gospel) to every creature [of the whole human race].

Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people.

Other gospels: Galatians 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!


The Second Helvetic Confession - WHAT IS THE GOSPEL PROPERLY SPEAKING?
And although our fathers had the Gospel in this way in the writings of the prophets by which they attained salvation in Christ through faith, yet the Gospel is properly called glad and joyous news, in which, first by John the Baptist, then by Christ the Lord himself, and afterwards by the apostles and their successors, is preached to us in the world that God has now performed what he promised from the beginning of the world, and has sent, nay more, has given us his only Son and in him reconciliation with the Father, the remission of sins, all fullness and everlasting life. Therefore, the history delineated by the four Evangelists and explaining how these things were done or fulfilled by Christ, what things Christ taught and did, and that those who believe in him have all fullness, is rightly called the Gospel. The preaching and writings of the apostles, in which the apostles explain for us how the Son was given to us by the Father, and in him everything that has to do with life and salvation, is also rightly called evangelical doctrine, so that not even today, if sincerely preached, does it lose its illustrious title.

 

[brightfame52]

Hmmm, I think I see your point. We may be getting into semantics which is hiding the doctrine.
OFFER definition: present or proffer (something) for (someone) to accept or reject as so desired.

I would state the salvation is offered to all that hear the gospel; yet, the offer is useless because only those that are born again by the Spirit can except the offer. That those that are born again will, without exception, except the offer. In short, regeneration logically precedes conversion (faith + repentance). In short, I agree with you, SALVATION IS GIVEN. I just see salvation as an OFFER also which will never be accepted unless it is GIVEN.

I guess you define "offer" differently in that it implies the person to whom the offer is made is the cause of acceptance or rejection of the offer. Since, on his own he will never accept the offer ... then it's not a legitimate offer.

But, forget the word 'offer' ... just state the crux of the matter IMO. I agree, the to say salvation IS GIVEN is more succinct.

Aside: We can't see the forest(method of salvation) for the trees(semantics) IMO

Understood but I see no offer of Salvation/Eternal life.

 

[brightfame52]

Well Brighfame....just because you say so and keep repeating it does not make it so.
If you do NOT see an offer in John 3:16, perhaps you are also not understanding the
rest of the New Testament?

I'd be a bit worried if I were you.
But you're not me.....
Too bad, because we don't serve the same God.
Mine loves His creation...Yours does not.

Again Jn 3:16 says nothing about a offer being made, that is merely human tradition to assume that.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Understood but I see no offer of Salvation/Eternal life.

Why don't you give it to us?