Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

[JLB]

No not all the Father gave to the Son were born at the time Christ prayed that prayer, but there were people born other than the disciples when He prayed that prayer. And there would be people born afterwards that the Father gave the Son, which Christ prayed for here Jn 17:20
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also[I pray] which shall believe on me through their word;

I have mentioned this to you once before, are you not paying attention ?

If you believe Jn 17:2 can only apply to the 11 disciples, for judas was not there at the time, nor was he included, you are sadly mistaken. Christ was given all that come to Him Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I said the context is referring to His twelve disciples... specifically those who you gave me.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
John 17:6-8


You used this passage to claim that Jesus only died for His sheep, and not for the world.


My point is Jesus is referring to His 12 disciples that were once in the world.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again Jn 3:16 says nothing about a offer being made, that is merely human tradition to assume that.

We are offered the free gift of salvation that Jesus Christ paid for on the cross.


The condition is to believe.


If you don’t see it, then so be it.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


“whoever believes in Him” is the condition to all people in the world.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Again Jn 3:16 says nothing about a offer being made, that is merely human tradition to assume that.

Human tradition?

John 3:16 was an offer made by God until approx the year 1,500 AD. (at the reformation).
Calvinism was the protestant way.
Guess the other 1,500 years were just filled with ignorant theologians.

But, alas, soon Calvinism began to be dismissed, why?
Because once someone studies it with no bias --- it's obvious that it makes no sense at all.

Now, it seems to be appearing again,,,but it will not last long.
Too much brain twisting for it to survive.

Like regeneration coming before faith.
We are saved by faith.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
It comes by hearing the word of God.

THIS is how we get faith.

But you say we need to be regenerated first....
so we need to be saved first and THEN we get regenerated?
No, wait...we get regenerated first and THEN we get faith and are saved...
or....


So, what you believe is that we are saved through regeneration.

This is for Fastfredy0 ,,,, who at lease is willing to discuss his beliefs...

 

[GodsGrace]

Ah, the subtleties .... I believe it is a choice in that we are free (God is not stopping us) to chose to believe or not believe. I also contend that NO ONE CHOOSES to believe due to the depravity of man (I could list 40+ verses). Assuming a person has heard the gospel, then if the person is among the elect (chosen by God at some point in his life, I could list 40+ verses) he will be regenerated (born again). A that moment in time that person's disposition will be changes so that he freely of his own will chooses to believe.
Our systems are similar. I will take the liberty to states what I believe is yours:
Yours: We are all, without exception, depraved but God instills in everyone "libertarian free will" which is the ability to chose "A" or not "A" in the same circumstances. This is called 'prevenient grace' by most (you don't use the term) and is supported by 4ish verses (in theory). This fits in well with your opinion that God loves (volition to favor) everyone without exception the same. It also fits your notion of 'fairness'.
Mine: God, with 100% efficiency, changes the nature of those that He elected/chose/willed such that they freely and willing believe salvifically.

Analogy: Stranger offers people $1million tomorrow if they give him $10.
Your scenario: The stranger gives you a story that makes you think, "well maybe he's telling the truth. He does this to 1,000 people. Ten people take him up on the offer.
Your scenario: The stranger gives you a story and you are 100% sure it is true so you give him $10. The stranger does same thing to 9 others who all give him $10. Ten people take him up on the offer.

FF... I'm going to start a thread on Free Will and also on Ordo Salutis.
I'll tag you in.

(this will have to do with choice)

This is a logical order. There is no time delay.

I understand what you mean by "there is no time delay" between regeneration and faith.
Of course you're referring to prevenient grace...a phrase I dislike using.
Why? Because it's a phrase not found in scripture and we waste time trying to discover what we each think of it
instead of discussing the meat of the matter.

Not much sense use rehashing. We're to stuck in our ways to change.

Got to go to post office. Good night, sleep tight .. don't let the bedbugs bite. (so my dad say to me decades ago)

We won't be changing each other....
But many are reading along.
I'd like them to know that God loves everyone enough to give them a chance to be saved for eternity.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I'm going to start a thread on Free Will and also on Ordo Salutis.

hmmm, in the past you refused to define "Free Will" (re: Hospes interaction). There seems little reason to proceed as this is the basis of the thread you propose.

Of course you're referring to prevenient grace...a phrase I dislike using.

I don't know why as 'prevenient grace' is a term your side invented to try to explain away man's inability to respond to God's offer of salvation in lieu of man's depravity.

Why? Because it's a phrase not found in scripture and we waste time trying to discover what we each think of it
instead of discussing the meat of the matter.

Agreed, 'prevenient grace' is not found in scripture. I assume you mean the "words" and not the "concept". The explanation of how man overcomes his depravity to respond to God is vital to your case and therefore would have to be examined.

We won't be changing each other....
But many are reading along.

I really don't think we have an big enough audience to make worth while an exchange of ideas. Also, though you are a worthy opponent, you often make false claims about what Calvinism teaches ... i.e. double predestination, God creates evil, ideas of Calvinism started in 1500s ....

Sample below:

Guess the other 1,500 years were just filled with ignorant theologians.

But, alas, soon Calvinism began to be dismissed, why?
Because once someone studies it with no bias --- it's obvious that it makes no sense at all.

Again, this is not accurate. I am not a church historian ... but Calvinism can be traced back to Augustine ... (Aside: it is not possible to trace every doctrine propagation through time from Christ to you and I. They debated the concept of the Trinity of 100s of years (I believe) ... same for hypostatic union.

Proof
"Many Protestants, especially Calvinists and Lutherans, consider him [Augustine] one of the theological fathers of the Protestant Reformation due to his teachings on salvation and divine grace" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
..."Augustine's understanding of the consequences of original sin and the necessity of redeeming grace was developed in the struggle against Pelagius and his Pelagian" .... see, Calvinist (Calvin, Augustine, whoever still fighting the same fight. With Augustine it was pelagianism .... today it is the semi-pelagians

Last time I gave a citation showing Calvinist's (R.C. Sproul) rejected Double Predestination you ignored it and continue to errantly propagate the idea that REFORM doctrine supports Double Predestination.

 

[brightfame52]

I said the context is referring to His twelve disciples... specifically those who you gave me.


“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
John 17:6-8


You used this passage to claim that Jesus only died for His sheep, and not for the world.


My point is Jesus is referring to His 12 disciples that were once in the world.


JLB

I know what you said, and i responded accordingly.

 

[brightfame52]

We are offered the free gift of salvation that Jesus Christ paid for on the cross.


The condition is to believe.


If you don’t see it, then so be it.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


“whoever believes in Him” is the condition to all people in the world.



JLB

I never read where salvation or eternal life is offered.

 

[brightfame52]

Human tradition?

John 3:16 was an offer made by God until approx the year 1,500 AD. (at the reformation).
Calvinism was the protestant way.
Guess the other 1,500 years were just filled with ignorant theologians.

But, alas, soon Calvinism began to be dismissed, why?
Because once someone studies it with no bias --- it's obvious that it makes no sense at all.

Now, it seems to be appearing again,,,but it will not last long.
Too much brain twisting for it to survive.

Like regeneration coming before faith.
We are saved by faith.
Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
It comes by hearing the word of God.

THIS is how we get faith.

But you say we need to be regenerated first....
so we need to be saved first and THEN we get regenerated?
No, wait...we get regenerated first and THEN we get faith and are saved...
or....


So, what you believe is that we are saved through regeneration.

This is for Fastfredy0 ,,,, who at lease is willing to discuss his beliefs...

I still dont see anything in Jn 3:16about a offer.

 

[JLB]

I never read where salvation or eternal life is offered.

Is a gift offered or forced?

Can a person refuse a gift or mishandle a gift?

 

[brightfame52]

Is a gift offered or forced?

Can a person refuse a gift or mishandle a gift?

Its given.

 

[JLB]

Its given.

If the condition is met, the gift that is offered will be given and therefore received.

 

[brightfame52]

If the condition is met, the gift that is offered will be given and therefore received.

I never seen that stated in the bible.

 

[JLB]

I never seen that stated in the bible.

Eternal life is neither offered or given apart from believing in the Son.


He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:10-13

• I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Jesus completely rejects that (Paul’s) claim in Luke 14:25-34 --- by stating the LARGE COST of becoming His disciple—be ready to give up EVERYTHING warns/ counsels the Lord if you want to become my disciple. Exactly what Jesus had told the rich man in the rich man and Jesus incident ( it is not a parable) (Mark 10:17–31).

SO, essentially you teach SALVATION BY WORKS, and feel that Eph 2:8,9 is a lie.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

SO, essentially you teach SALVATION BY WORKS, and feel that Eph 2:8,9 is a lie.

Hi Bob, thank you for your question. I would recommend going through my posts to understand what I'm saying . One post cannot answer your question. I have written several

 

[JLB]

SO, essentially you teach SALVATION BY WORKS, and feel that Eph 2:8,9 is a lie.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

I dont think anyone believes we can work to earn salvation.

Nor have I seen anyone who thinks we can do enough good works to be rewarded with salvation.

I know he doesn't believe that by keeping the works of the law we are granted salvation in return.


I do think he believes we must obey the Gospel to be saved though.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Eternal life is neither offered or given apart from believing in the Son.


He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
1 John 5:10-13

• I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



JLB

Eternal life is given to as many as the Father gave the Son Jn 17:2 and those are His Sheep Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

One Believes because they were one of Christs Sheep whom He gives Eternal life.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Eternal life is given to as many as the Father gave the Son Jn 17:2 and those are His Sheep Jn 10:26-29

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

One Believes because they were one of Christs Sheep whom He gives Eternal life.

Correct Bright. what you quoted is right in my humble opinion. And these Sheep are those mentioned by Christ in Sheep and Goats parable : Matthew 25:31-46
And these Sheep were those Christians who practised loving compassion like the Good Samaritan. This was then the definition by Christ Himself of Sheep that would be saved on the last day.

 

[JLB]

One Believes because they were one of Christs Sheep whom He gives Eternal life.

Please explain to us how one becomes one of His sheep, before they believe?

Again, as I said before His disciples were called out of the world and believed the Gospel and became His sheep.

“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 17:6

They were of the world, before they responed to His call.

They werent His sheep before they believed.

The idea that they were His sheep first, then later they believed is not scriptural.





JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

When Do Christ’s Sheep Become His Sheep?​

Author: Jim Elliff

“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep” (John 10:26)

I once heard a man read the above verse and ask, “When does a sheep become a sheep?”
The question is a good one, and has importance in the dialogue in John 10.

Jesus had been talking with Jewish leaders who were not buying in to his viewpoint — especially his claim that he was the Christ. “If you are the Christ, tell us plainly,” they said.

He replies, “I told you, but you do not believe . . .”

Then he states very plainly why they did not believe him — “you are not of my sheep.”

Wait a Minute!
Is Jesus saying that some people are his sheep before believing? It appears to me this is exactly what he is saying.

In fact, Jesus said something similar earlier in the chapter. He had just told the Jews around him that he was the “good shepherd” who lays down his life for the sheep, which is clearly an allusion to the cross. Pay attention to his words because they include you:

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd” (John 10:16)

He has other sheep who haven’t yet been brought into his fold? Yes, the sheep who “are not of this fold” is a way of talking about Gentiles. Fifty days after Jesus will die, on the day of Pentecost, the door will be opened wide to Gentiles to believe in Christ. He calls those who will believe, “sheep.” And, he already has them!

What Has He Said Again?

Let’s put it all together:

1. Jesus said that he has his sheep prior to their act of believing in him.
2. He says that he dies for his sheep.
3. He says, “I must bring them.”
4. He says that they will “hear my voice.”
5. And, he promises that then they “will become one flock with one shepherd.”

To make it personal, if you are a Christian, Jesus considered you to be his sheep before you believed, he then died for you before you believed (or were even born), and then he brought you to himself, causing you to hear his voice and believe. At this point he added you to the very large flock of his believing sheep who will experience eternal life together with him.

What do we see is necessary then for your eternal salvation:

• You must be one of his sheep before you believe.
• He must die for you, which he said he would do effectively for all his sheep.
• You must respond to his voice and believe in him, which he promised will happen to each of his own sheep (see John 10: 26-30).

If any one of the above is missing, you cannot have eternal life. It’s important to understand, however, that you cannot know #1 and #2 is so until you experience #3.

____________________

Understanding Salvation in Lieu of Time
Take Ephesians 2:8, for example. You may have noticed that the English translation of this verse uses the present perfect tense of the verb “save”: “For it is by grace you have been saved.” Not “are saved” or “will be saved” or “were saved” but “have been saved.” This English translation accurately renders the Greek original, which is also in the present perfect tense. What is the sense of the present perfect here? In Greek, this tense indicates that something happened in the past, but with continuing results or implications. “I am saved” states a present condition. “I was saved” specifies that this happened in the past. “I have been saved” means that my salvation began in the past but continues into the present.
Let me illustrate this by pointing to my own life experience. My salvation was earned in the past when Christ died for me on the cross. I received this salvation by faith when I went forward at a Billy Graham crusade in 1963. That also happened in the past. At that time, as a six-year-old boy, I had assurance that I would be saved in the future. But that is not the whole story. For the past fifty-five years, God has been graciously allowing me to experience more of his salvation as he has been bringing me into greater wholeness. Thus, I am able to say with gratitude that I was saved. I will be saved. I am saved. And I have been saved. You can say the same things about yourself if you are in Christ.

Mark D. Roberts​