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Is Salvation really a "free Gift" of God?

JLB said:
Ok, last time.

It’s not because you and I differ in understanding of scripture that I said you weren’t using scripture, it was the simple fact that you kept posting your opinion and tagging it with scripture, rather than actually posting the scripture.

Here is your post I was referring to.

Post number 122



Is there a scripture in this post?

You started to use scripture in your posts after I called you several times. Then you started posting the actual scripture.


If you keep on with this plainly deceitful and divisive narrative I will be forced to remove you from the thread.


And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Hebrews 5:9


Does this verse mean to you that He saves people that don’t obey Him?



JLB
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Yes 1 Pet 1:22 is a scripture !
 
JLB said:
I agree that we obey Him because His Spirit enables us to obey Him.


Where you and I disagree is you believe and teach that we are born again, saved by a Sovereign act of the Spirit, before we hear the Gospel, some time during our life, then later on we are able to believe the Gospel.


I believe we are born again because we hear and believe the Gospel.

  • whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16



God loves the world and gave His Son as a sacrifice for the sins of all who will believe, not just some select few but for all who will believe.




JLB
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The Spirit enables because He has regenerated the person. I showed you that twice with scripture 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Peter said the same thing in Heb 5:9 the Spirit has been given to them that are obeying Him.

And the Spirit is Sovereign and Works when He pleases in these matters Jn 3:8

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
 
brightfame52 said:
Peter said the same thing in Heb 5:9 the Spirit has been given to them that are obeying Him.
Click to expand...

Here is what Hebrews 5:9 says —


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Eternal life is given to those who obey Him.



However, as I said, the main point where we disagree is your perspective on being born again. I believe most everyone in this Forum will agree, that we are born again, saved, regenerated when we believe the Gospel.


Your view, as I understand it, believes and teaches that the Spirit chooses and sovereignly saves a person without them hearing the Gospel or believing the Gospel, because they are already His sheep and were already chosen for salvation.


Is this your belief?



JLB
 
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Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
 
brightfame52 said:
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
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So you agree that “all men” (all people) are eligible to be saved?






JLB
 
brightfame52 said:
Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

I know men have debated whether or not Faith in this passage is the Gift of God. It certainly is with no doubt, in fact everything regarding Salvation in Christ is the Gift of God. Jesus alludes to Himself as being the Gift of God Jn 4:10

Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

So Faith as it accompanies Salvation is the Gift of God, and Faith being a fruit of the Spirit, the Spirit in New Birth is the Gift of God. Yes part of the Saving efficacy of the Cross is giving the New Birth, simply, Christs death for His People effects the Saving Work of the New Birth, that's why He says, speaking of His death Jn 12:32-33

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

The drawing here is the immediate effect of being lifted up, which denotes His Death. His death secured the drawing, the New Birth, which the Spirit is guaranteed to work mightily in the sinner He died for, causing the sinner to come to Christ in believing faith. All this is the result of His redeeming death. Rom 8 32

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The all things includes New Birth, Faith, Repentance, A New workmanship ,all the spiritual blessing stored up in Him for them from before the foundation of the world Eph 1:3-4

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
Click to expand...

Amen. All great scriptures. Thank you for posting them.


Yes, Jesus Christ, the gift of grace (the Holy Spirit) and faith, are all gifts from God.


It’s what we do in response to the gift being offered to us, that determines if we are saved or not.


  • Believe is the response from us that produces salvation.

We can’t do enough good works to earn salvation, it is given by God’s great mercy.


Words of Christ in red.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The only thing that kept these who heard the Gospel from receiving the free gift of God’s salvation is they didn’t believe.


Of course, after we are saved, we must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.



AMEN.





JLB
 
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JLB said:
Amen. All great scriptures. Thank you for posting them.


Yes, Jesus Christ, the gift of grace (the Holy Spirit) and faith, are all gifts from God.


It’s what we do in response to the gift being offered to us, that determines if we are saved or not.


  • Believe is the response from us that produces salvation.

We can’t do enough good works to earn salvation, it is given by God’s great mercy.


Words of Christ in red.


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The only thing that kept these who heard the Gospel from receiving the free gift of God’s salvation is they didn’t believe.


Of course, after we are saved, we must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved.



AMEN.





JLB
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Please show me a scripture that says a gift has been offered to us ?
 
brightfame52 said:
Please show me a scripture that says a gift has been offered to us ?
Click to expand...


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The gift of eternal life is offered to “whoever” believes.


Do you believe eternal life is a gift or do we have to earn it?




JLB
 
JLB said:
Who do you see as being excluded from “all men” being drawn to Christ?


JLB
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First please answer me, where does the words appear "a gift has been offered to us ?"

The answer to your question is, all men that dont e drawn to Christ are excluded. Those drawn come to Christ in Faith. Do all men come in Faith, believing and following Christ ?
 
JLB said:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16


The gift of eternal life is offered to “whoever” believes.


Do you believe eternal life is a gift or do we have to earn it?




JLB
Click to expand...
Where do you see the words offer in Jn 3:16
 
A passage that clearly indicates that all of Salvation, to include New Birth and Conversion is the direct effect of Christs Death [which many man made religions deny] is right here Jn 12:23-34

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

I believe Jesus here is referring to Himself here as the Corn of Wheat which fall into the ground and die [speaking of His Death] and if it die [which He did] it bringeth forth much fruit. The fruit here is Salvation, Spiritual Life and Conversion, which entails Faith and Repentance. See Faith and Repentance are but Fruit from His Death.. The word fruit karpos means:
    1. the fruit of one's loins, i.e. his progeny, his posterity
  2. that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result

    Notice the word means effect, results. Its talking about effecting the Salvation of those He died for, His Seed. Isa 53:10
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;
he hath put him to grief:
when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days,
and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

That word seed also means

offspring, descendants, posterity, children

The word also means fruitful Gen 48 4

And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed H2233 after thee for an everlasting possession 5
 
brightfame52 said:
Where do you see the words offer in Jn 3:16
Click to expand...

I see the principle of how a gift is conveyed from one person to another?

The gift is offered from the party who is giving the gift, to the party that the giver intends the gift to be given?

How do you believe a gift is given from one party to the other?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • The gift of eternal life is offered to “whoever” believes.

I also don’t see the word “gift” in this passage either.

Do you believe eternal life is a gift?


How else does a gift get conveyed from one party to another if not offered as a gift.

God sent to the world because of His great love, in which He offers, makes available to mankind the gift of His Son Jesus Christ, who is our eternal life to whosoever believes.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3



If you don’t believe that eternal life is offered to the world as a gift, that whosoever believes in Him should receive eternal life, then tell us how we receive eternal life from God?





JLB
 
brightfame52 said:
A passage that clearly indicates that all of Salvation, to include New Birth and Conversion is the direct effect of Christs Death [which many man made religions deny] is right here Jn 12:23-34

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Click to expand...

Yes agreed it is by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that eternal life is made available to the world.


How does what Jesus Christ accomplished, two thousand years ago, get conveyed to someone today?



JLB
 
JLB said:
I see the principle of how a gift is conveyed from one person to another?

The gift is offered from the party who is giving the gift, to the party that the giver intends the gift to be given?

How do you believe a gift is given from one party to the other?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • The gift of eternal life is offered to “whoever” believes.

I also don’t see the word “gift” in this passage either.

Do you believe eternal life is a gift?


How else does a gift get conveyed from one party to another if not offered as a gift.

God sent to the world because of His great love, in which He offers, makes available to mankind the gift of His Son Jesus Christ, who is our eternal life to whosoever believes.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3



If you don’t believe that eternal life is offered to the world as a gift, that whosoever believes in Him should receive eternal life, then tell us how we receive eternal life from God?





JLB
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Again you use terms not in scripture. Show me where it says Salvation is a gift offered. Eternal Life is a Gift given by God. Just like sin gave death, the Gift of God gives eternal life Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

He doesnt give the Gift of eternal life to all without exception, but as to many as the Father gives Him Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Notice the word give not offer !

Jn 10:28

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Give not offer

Jn 6 33


For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Give not offer

1 Jn 5 11


And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

Given not offered !
 
jlb

I see the principle of how a gift is conveyed from one person to another?
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I dont think you really understand the word convey. It doesnt mean offer, here is the definition of the word:

to carry, bring, or take from one place to another; transport; bear.
to communicate; impart; make known:to convey a wish.
to lead or conduct, as a channel or medium; transmit.

One of the ways God gives Eternal Life is to impart it in and y the New Birth. When Christ quickens a dead sinner He gives them Eternal Life. He is called a quickening Spirit or life giving Spirit 1 Cor 15:45

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

That Life which He quickens with is Eternal Life, and its Spiritual Life.
 
JLB said:
Yes agreed it is by the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ that eternal life is made available to the world.


How does what Jesus Christ accomplished, two thousand years ago, get conveyed to someone today?



JLB
Click to expand...
Made available ? No I dont agree with that because no scripture says that. You are using unscriptural terms. Christ gives Eternal life to those the Father gave Him Jn 17:2

2 as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
 
brightfame52 said:
Again you use terms not in scripture. Show me where it says Salvation is a gift offered. Eternal Life is a Gift given by God.
Click to expand...

Like I explained,
I see the principle of how a gift is conveyed from one person to another?

The gift is offered from the party who is giving the gift, to the party that the giver intends the gift to be given?

How do you believe a gift is given from one party to the other?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

  • The gift of eternal life is offered to “whoever” believes.

I also don’t see the word “gift” in this passage either.

Do you believe eternal life is a gift?


How else does a gift get conveyed from one party to another if not offered as a gift.


So, I have answered and explained how I see the principle of how we come to receive the gift of eternal life from God.


Please explain how you believe we receive the gift of eternal life from God, if not by believing the Gospel.



JLB
 
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