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James 2 And OSAS - Part 2

Re: James 2 And OSAS

and even Muslims can be saved if they obeyed the Law of Love as taught by Christ, even if they didn't know about Jesus = God.
Boy talking about a rejection of the gospel?:naughty

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yes just be good and you dont need Jesus?:shame

"There is none good, no not one"

George, there is no name other than Christ through whom we can be saved...

Are you saying that Christ cannot send His Spirit to whom He desires to enable that person to love as Christ? Since no one can do good without Christ, we posit that the Muslim, Jew, or anyone else who follows the Law of Christ does so BECAUSE of JESUS CHRIST and His Holy Spirit.

I am certainly not saying that the Muslim has found another way to God. I am saying that the Muslim COULD be saved THROUGH Christ and His Spirit, Who blows where HE wills, not where we THINK He blows.

Regards
Well then they would not be a muslim, they would be a christian, right?

That's a good question, George.

If you had such a neighbor, would you feel comfortable considering them a Christian? I think we could. They would consider themselves Muslim and pray to Allah. They would be wrong on a number of there ideas about who God is and not taking the final step on who Jesus is. Perhaps we could evangelize such people carefully. But at the end of the day, is knowledge or love more important?

Regards
 
But the passage is about people saying they did good work, not that they didn't do any bad work.

All depends on what you are able to hear apparently.

I clearly hear Jesus addressing 'all who work iniquity' and simple math says to me that 'we all' work iniquity post salvation.

Obviously some believers are not able to hear the simple fact of it and connect that to the fact that they work iniquity and are therefore part of the 'all.'

Again, does this negate James' teaching that dead faith (one with no works to validate it as real) can not save? That seems to be the angle OSAS puts on it. That's what we need to be talking about.

No, the 'angle' is that for most non-OSAS people they use a non-existing scale to determine what they think is a fact, of God leaving a believer and thereby not saving them.

s
 
My 'main complaint' with the non-OSAS faction is that they all threaten the eternal fate of myself and family



Then you are a witness against your own belief, if someone other than God could threaten your salvation.


JLB
 
It's a simple enough question.

I asked you if your theological position is that believers must believe that God in Christ might not save them in order to be saved?

s

Do I think that a person can only be saved if they believe that God may not save them?

No.

Salvation is by trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins, not by what you believe about the multitude of doctrines, in and of themselves, that we love to toss around in the church. Doctrine does not determine if you're saved or not. Character does.

This doctrine of OSAS only matters if you have stopped trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins but think you will still enter the pearly gates without trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

And James and others say we can know for ourselves if we are trusting in the blood of Christ by whether or not we have the love of God in us, and that the love of God in us is working itself out in increasing measure in other people's lives through the fruit of the Spirit. Character (love, joy, peace, forgiveness, patience, kindness, etc.) validates salvation, not doctrine. But so many people take comfort in the correctness of their doctrine to know they are saved or not...while they chew each other up over their doctrine. THAT is hypocrisy.

"...the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.†15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." (Galatians 5:14-15 NIV)

Godly love is how we know we are trusting in God's forgiveness and are at peace with him. Godly love is the evidence of salvation. James says the faith that doesn't keep the royal law of scripture is a faith that can not save. Each of us individually has to take that to heart and make every effort to see that we don't fall short of salvation in this way.

"10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV)

"7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (Hebrews 6:7-8 NIV)

This thread has been moving pretty quickly, so I am fortunate that I was able to read this. I agree with Jeff77, it is an excellent post...

Regards
 
Re: James 2 And OSAS

Before addressing these questions, let me establish the terms and their
meanings. Salvation - being saved from the wages of sin, DEATH and
being gifted with age lasting life from God thru His Anointed One,
Jesus.

I propose that the scriptures teach that salvation is a gift that
is not received in this life. The scriptures teach that assurance of a future
salvation could be received in this life but not that salvation is realized in
the here and now. The assurance was based on Jesus' conquering death makingage
lasting life a reality for all who believe and obey.

So now, to answer
your questions.

1. What sin caused the loss of salvation?
answer:
Unfaithfulness.
A better question centers around what causes salvation to be
realized. The completed work of Jesus coupled with the believer's faithfulness
LEADS TO salvation. Jesus' work is done, but a believer's faithfulness is an
ongoing process. When the process is stopped, so too is the assurance of the
salvation that awaits. When one finally realizes salvation, it likely cannot be
lost (but again, that doesn't happen in this life).

2. How does loss of
salvation become known to an individual?

3. How is salvation
recovered?
answer: The same way it is received.
Through faith and
trust in the Lord that causes one to live a life of submission and obedience to
the Lord.

4. Where in scripture is there an example of
a true believer losing his salvation and then being saved again?

answer: This is easy to answer, NOWHERE. But the question is
problematic because nowhere in scripture are we shown any individual aside from
perhaps Jesus Himself that had already received the gift of salvation. We are
told "at the end of your faith" the salvation of one's soul will be realized (1
Peter 1:9
).


Thanks for answering. The answers are typical to what I get from Unbelievers.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. You have no chance of "intellectually understanding" until you get saved. You need the Spirit to understand the Mind Of Christ. We do not get the Spirit until we are saved.


So the 'typical' answers from unbelievers are based on the scriptures? You seem to be TRYING to discredit the answers you asked for not by addressing them. You have created a strawman and labeled it as 'Typical unbeliever Answer' rather than addressing its content.
 
Consider the following texts in their context and what they say about the subject at hand.

Romans 11:
(which was written by Paul to all in Rome, God’s loved ones who were called to be holy from the nations who had also become the called who belong to Jesus the Anointed.)

13 Now, I want to address those of you who are people of the nations: Since I’m really an Apostle to the nations, I can glorify my service 14 if I can somehow make those of my own flesh jealous and save some of them. 15 Because, if throwing them away brought the world into a restored relationship [with God], what will taking them back mean, other than life for those who are dead? 16 For, if the first fruits are holy, so is the whole lump! And if the roots are holy, so are the branches!17 So, when some of the branches were broken off, you wild olives were grafted in and you became sharers of the fatness of the olive [tree’s] roots. 18 But, don’t cheer because those branches [were removed]; for if you find yourself cheering over that, remember that you don’t support the roots, they support you!19 Yet you can say, ‘Branches were broken off so I could be grafted in’ 20 … and that’s right! They were broken off because of a lack of faith; and you are there instead, because of your faith. But don’t think too much of yourselves… be afraid! 21 For, if God didn’t spare the natural branches, He won’t spare you either.22 So, recognize God’s kindness, as well as [His] willingness to remove. For a fact; those who stumbled were cut off, while you received God’s loving care… but only for as long as you stay in that [good relationship]. Otherwise, you’ll be pruned off too! 23 And if [the Jews] don’t continue in their disbelief, they will be grafted back in, because God can graft them back in again!

Luke 8/Matt 13



11 ‘Now, the illustration means this: The seed is the Word of God. 12 Those beside the road are those who hear, but the Slanderer comes and takes the Word from their hearts, to prevent them from believing and being saved.13 ‘Those that fall on the rocks, are those who hear and welcome the Word with joy, but because they don’t have any roots, they only believe for a season. And when seasons of testing come along, they pull away.14 ‘As for those who fall among thorns; These are the ones who have heard, but because of their daily concerns, such as [seeking] wealth and the pleasures of living, they are choked out and fail to produce.15 ‘But [those that fall] on the good soil have good and pure hearts; and after hearing the word, they remember and continue to bear fruit.
18 ‘So now, listen to the [meaning of the] illustration of the farmer who planted: 19 Whenever someone hears about the Kingdom, but doesn’t understand it, the wicked one comes and snatches away what has been planted in his heart. This one was planted beside the road. 20 ‘As for the one that was planted among the rocks; He’s the one who hears the word and quickly accepts it with joy. 21 But because he has no roots, he’s just here for a short time. For, when hard times or persecution come along because of the Word, he’s immediately trapped. 22 ‘As for the one planted among the thistles; This one hears the word, but the concerns of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke-out the Word and he doesn’t produce fruit. 23 ‘But, as for the one planted on good soil; He hears the Word, understands it, and actually puts out fruit… this one a hundred, that one sixty, and the other thirty.’





- See the words of Jesus. The Rocky soil received the Word with joy, was "here" as a christian (follower of Christ), then of his own will turned away.


Galatians: (written by Paul to the Ecclesia (called out ones) of Galatia)



16 I tell you this: If you keep walking by the Breath, you won’t do anything that your flesh desires. 17 For, what the flesh wants is at odds with what the Breath wants, and the Breath is at odds with the flesh – they are in opposition to each other – so you don’t do the things that you may like to do. 18 And if the Breath is leading you, you aren’t under the Law.19 Now, the things that the flesh does are known. They include sexual immorality, uncleanness, unseemly acts, 20 worshiping idols, involvement in the occult, hatred, quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, divisions, sects, 21 envying, getting drunk, wild partying, and things like that. I’m warning you now as I’ve warned you before, that those who do such things won’t inherit God’s Kingdom.22 However, the fruitage of [God’s] Breath is love, joy, peace, patience, caring, goodness, faith, 23 reasonableness, and self-control… and there are no laws against such things. 24 But those who belong to the Anointed Jesus have hung their flesh on the pole, along with its passions and desires. 25 So if we’re living by [God’s] Breath, then let’s walk in the Breath… 26 don’t be conceited, and [don’t] challenge or envy one another!
Chapter 6
1 Brothers, if anyone is ever caught up in doing bad things, those of you who have the Breath should try to restore that person in a reasonable way, as you keep an eye on yourselves so you aren’t tempted also………… 7 Now, don’t make any mistake when it comes to this: You can’t mock God! Because, whatever a person is planting, is what he’s going to harvest. 8 So, if he’s planting [the desires] of his own flesh, he will harvest decay from the flesh. And if he’s planting things that have to do with [God’s] Breath, he’ll harvest life in the age. 9 So, let’s not misbehave… let’s keep on doing what’s right until that time comes, because we’ll harvest what we deserve if we don’t tire out.





Ephesians 5: (written to Christians as well)
Become imitators of God as His loved children, 2 and keep on walking in love, as the Anointed One loved you and gave himself up for you as an offering… a sweet smelling sacrifice to God. 3 Don’t allow sexual immorality or any type of uncleanness or greediness to be even mentioned among you, as would be expected from holy people. 4 Nor [should you share in] shameful conduct, foolishness, or dirty jokes (which are all unbecoming), but rather, in giving thanks. 5 Because, you already recognize and know that all those who are immoral, unclean, and greedy (which really amounts to being idol worshipers) won’t have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God and the Anointed One.6 Don’t allow anyone to seduce you into using empty words. For, it’s because of things like this that the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. 7 So, don’t join in with them, 8 because; although you were once dark, you are now light in the Lord. So, keep walking as children of light!9 The fruitage of light is every sort of goodness, righteousness, and truth… 10 things that prove to be pleasing to the Lord. 11 So, don’t share in the unproductive deeds of darkness, but speak out against them. 12 It’s shameful to talk about things that are only done in private, 13 because everything that the light speaks against is being exposed, and all the things that are being made known are the light. 14 That’s why he says, ‘Wake up, you who are sleeping, and lift yourselves from among the dead; then the Anointed One will shine upon you.’15 Therefore, pay close attention to the way you’re walking, so it’s not like those who are foolish, but as those who are wise. 16 Buy time for yourselves, because these are wicked days… 17 don’t be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is. 18 And don’t be getting drunk on wine, which leads down an unsavory path. Rather, fill yourselves with the Breath [of God].

1 Thessalonians:
1 Finally, brothers; We ask and urge you by the Lord Jesus, to follow the path of the things you learned from us and to keep pleasing God. Although you’re already doing this, you must do it even more so! 2 You know the orders that we gave you through the Lord Jesus, 3 that; What God wants is [for you] to be made holy and to stay free from sexual immorality. 4 You should each learn how to take control of yourselves in holiness and honor… 5 not in passionate desires like those nations who don’t know God! 6 Nobody should overstep the limits or take advantage of his brother in this matter, for the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we warned you before and explained completely. 7 Why, God didn’t call us to uncleanness, but to holiness! 8 So, you who [choose to] disregard this [warning] aren’t disregarding a man, but The God who put His Holy Breath in you.

- this Thessalonian text contains a warning from Paul to Christian that had the Holy Spirit in them. Paul warns them to stay free from sexual immorality and not to disregard the commandment of God. He tells them that they who have been given the God’s Holy Spirit could CHOOSE to disregard God’s warnings and not stay free from sexual immorality.

- the texts says nothing about being saved, BUT when placed into the overall biblical context consider that repeatedly the writer of this text said the following: Now, the things that the flesh does are known. They include sexual immorality, uncleanness, unseemly acts, worshiping idols, involvement in the occult, hatred, quarreling, jealousy, anger, selfishness, divisions, sects, envying, getting drunk, wild partying, and things like that. I’m warning you now as I’ve warned you before, that those who do such things won’t inherit God’s Kingdom.


-----------------------------

It was my goal to use scripture in the context of where it was written to speak out about those who come to believe in the gospel of Jesus, are "here" in the fold of Jesus sheep for a while, then turn away from the Lord into sin. The texts speak for themselves and what they clearly indicate is the fact that following Jesus and having faith in Him is a choice. It is a choice that can be made, and it is a choice that can be forsaken. As long as the sheep listen to the shephard's voice and follow Him, they are protected and no one is able to snatch them from Him, but should the sheep wander from the shephard and not harken to His voice, they could find themselves in a world of danger.

I have heard the argument that if, "a christian cannot be lost after becoming a christian because there is no way that he could be saved again since Jesus' will not be sacrificed again." This statement deserves attention. In order to address it, I'll just reference what the Bible says a believer who sins must do. See 1 John:



5 And the message that we heard from Him, which we want to announce to you is: God is light and there isn’t any darkness in Him!
6 However, if we say that we’re sharing something with Him and we just keep on walking in the darkness, we’re lying, and we aren’t doing what’s right. 7 But if we’re walking in the light (since He’s in the light), we will share with each other, and then the blood of His Son Jesus will cleanse us of all our sins.
8 Now, if we say that we don’t have any sins, we’re misleading ourselves and there’s no truth in us. 9 But if we admit our sins, He will forgive our sins and wash away all our unrighteousness, because He is faithful and righteous. 10 So, if we ever say that we haven’t sinned, we’re making Him out as a liar, and His words aren’t in us.
Chapter 2
1 My little children; I’m writing these things to you, in order to keep you from committing any sins. Yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have someone righteous who is our advocate with the Father, Jesus the Anointed One. 2 He’s the sacrifice that begs forgiveness for our sins.




The christian who sins must admit it and turn from it. According to the text
 
My 'main complaint' with the non-OSAS faction is that they all threaten the eternal fate of myself and family

Then you are a witness against your own belief, if someone other than God could threaten your salvation.

Nah, I just call them for the phony claimers they are.

Always some person claiming to be a believer that wants other believers eternal detriment for not believing 'like them.'

I think that effort is a worthless game myself, and that it is something that a lot of 'christianity' latched onto as a method of denominational survival.

s
 
Re: James 2 And OSAS

George, there is no name other than Christ through whom we can be saved...

Are you saying that Christ cannot send His Spirit to whom He desires to enable that person to love as Christ? Since no one can do good without Christ, we posit that the Muslim, Jew, or anyone else who follows the Law of Christ does so BECAUSE of JESUS CHRIST and His Holy Spirit.

I am certainly not saying that the Muslim has found another way to God. I am saying that the Muslim COULD be saved THROUGH Christ and His Spirit, Who blows where HE wills, not where we THINK He blows.

Regards

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts..." (Romans 2:14-15 NIV)

Same God, same requirements...just not personified in the person of Jesus Christ because of lack of knowledge about Christ...God himself having revealed himself through nature and conscience to the multitudes in earth's history who have not heard of the Law, or the name of Christ. God's grace extends much, much further than our little corner of history can grasp.

Well first an unsaved man, does not have the "law written upon his heart" Paul is speaking to Jews about the gentile Christians who show the work of the law written upon their hearts "THE HOLY SPIRIT" The law makes clear that the heart of all men is evil and wicked "deceptive above all things" Its good to look at the context of that chapter to see the point Paul is making to the Jews who are trusting in their own goodness to work righteousness.

Ro 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I think in Romans 2, Paul is stating that having the law doesn't necessarily lead to eternal life - as those without the written Law are fulfilling it by their actions through the Spirit of God. This was the gist of my first post ont his subject. In other words, Paul is telling the Jews that salvation is not dependent upon being a Jew - God is a God of the Gentiles, too.

Regards
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Again, does this negate James' teaching that dead faith (one with no works to validate it as real) can not save? That seems to be the angle OSAS puts on it. That's what we need to be talking about.

No, the 'angle' is that for most non-OSAS people they use a non-existing scale to determine what they think is a fact, of God leaving a believer and thereby not saving them.

s
Non existent? What is it about James' measure for validating genuine faith in God that OSAS doesn't understand? It's the same one John and Peter use. Why does OSAS put it on the chopping block when it comes down to knowing if you have the faith that saves, or not. Or if you really need faith to the very end to be saved?


And I showed you that the Galatians 'knew' God, and God 'knew' them, yet Paul tells them that if they reject Christ and faith in his blood for justification and return to reliance on the law for justification they were alienating themselves from God. This fact compels me to reassess the common interpretation of Matthew 7 that insists Jesus is establishing hard and fast doctrine that says 'anyone he doesn't know he never knew to begin with'. Which is where the OSAS argument of 'well they were never saved to begin with' argument comes from.

So, Reba, I can reconcile Jesus' statement that 'no one can remove us out of his hand', and Paul's 'who/what can be against us', with the seemingly contradictory statement 'yes you can lose your salvation' with the fact that the Bible indicates WE ourselves, through unbelief, can remove ourselves from God's grace of salvation. It is our faith that makes the promises rock solid. Lose your faith and you no longer have the sure foundation upon which the promises are made sure.

Does God fight tooth and nail as the 'author and finisher of our faith' to prevent us from doing that? I'm convinced that He does!. But I don't see scripturally how that has to mean we can't succeed in resisting his efforts in doing that.

(Okay, I really am going outside to finish my chores, lol.)
 
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Re: James 2 And OSAS

Well that just ignores the Old Testament that states in clear words that the heart of all men are wicked and deceptive above all things. It also ignores the clear context of these scriptures.

No gentile that is not born-again has the law written upon their hearts.

To be born again, don't you have to be aware of Jesus Christ and salvation history? Isn't there some sort of acceptance of even some minimal "gospel"? How else would one mark themselves as "born again" if there is no perception of a change of the will towards a different way of life?

George, what are your thoughts on the people of the Americas before the 1500's? How about the people of the Far East before missionaries of Christianity went there? If one were to say it is absolutely necessary to hear the Gospel from these missionaries before being saved, doesn't that presume that BEFORE the missionaries, all men were condemned? Or would it be better to think that God was merciful and acted upon His elect who were born "outside of the accepted time and place", men and women who God sent His Spirit to and they responded in some fashion?

I think it is better to give God a wide lattitude on who He will call to Himself. God seems to like to surprise us and go beyond what we expect...

Regards
 
What is it about James' measure for validating genuine faith in God that OSAS doesn't understand?

What are you using to constitute 'proof of belief?' I have asked you this repeatedly.

What 'standard of works' are you going to run up the flag Jethro?

It's the same one John and Peter use.
Which is what?

I see exactly zero Apostles claiming that we must believe we might not be saved as a measure.

Why does OSAS put it on the chopping block when it comes down to knowing if you have the faith that saves, or not. Or if you really need faith to the very end to be saved?
Do you think if anyone calls upon the Lord to save them that He fails to do so or leaves that person or is insufficient to 'get the job done?'

or

are you making that case that the person must save themselves via whatever method you want to raise:

works?
trust?
sinlessness?

The standard for OSAS is that God in Christ is entirely sufficient for the task at hand, and once a person has called upon Him in and by faith to save, and He shall in fact SAVE.

Does that mean a person having stepped onto this ground can not fall away? No. But that supposed 'falling away' does NOT equate to making God in Christ a failure and only proves man's insufficiency in every case.

Our Savior remains their Savior regardless. Some will say they were never saved to begin with. I might say they just got sick of hypocrisy or division in the churches or were blinded by Satan and give them the benefit of the doubt. It does not benefit me for thinking otherwise without denigrating the Perfectly Capable Abilities of our Savior to actually SAVE.

It was never about 'us' to begin with.

And I showed you that the Galatians 'knew' God, and God 'knew' them, yet Paul tells them that if they reject Christ and faith in his blood for justification and return to reliance on the law for justification they were alienating themselves from God.
I can only say that every last one of you non-OSAS judgers are severely deficient in your standards of 'judgments.'

You are totally person centric and nearly non-existing God in Christ centric and every last one of you has no account whatsoever for fallen believers' being deceived by Satan or frustrated with LIARS and CRIMINALS in the churches.

And I might say that 'many' large segments of christianity deserve to be walked away from because of lying criminals in the pulpits.


I left off charismania for example because the space is filled with lying manipulating criminals and I couldn't tolerate it any longer.

This fact compels me to reassess the common interpretation of Matthew 7 that insists Jesus is establishing hard and fast doctrine that anyone he doesn't know he never knew to begin with. Which the OSAS argument of 'well they were never saved to begin with' argument comes from.
Jesus very specifically addresses ALL who work iniquity, that much is certain.

and what is also just as certain is that 'every believer' works iniquity post salvation unless they want to claim they are sinless in which case they mark themselves as deceived.
 
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Please site your sources Modertor
 
I don't know. I do know the example of Abraham shows that justification is a process, which kinda blows the concept of OSAS out of the water.


No justification is not a process, sanctification is a process. Did God reject Abraham when he turned to Hagar? Did Abraham reject God?

The term is used synonymously in scriptures. Abraham was Justified on three separate occasions - according to the New Testament writers. Romans, Hebrews and James, refering to three separate moments in the life of Abraham.

Regards
 
Yes, practice...as in a lifestyle...what characterizes you. Like the unbeliever who can do good sometimes, but who is characterized by their sin, not their right doing. In similar fashion, the believer is to seek to be characterized by the good he does, not the bad he does. So he can know for himself that he has the faith that saves. The Bible plainly teaches this. Plainly.

I agree. We are sinners, and we sin. Some LIVE in their sin, totally rejecting God. Some slip, fall and ask forgiveness. That's the difference.
 
Here is my scripture about inheriting the kingdom of God.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:


There will be two groups of people on earth when Jesus returns -

Those who inherit the kingdom.

Those who banished into everlasting fire.


George, please do not deceive people by telling them such things as you said -

Paul is not saying they are not saved, but that they cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

According to Jesus, if you do not inherit the Kingdom of God, you will go to hell.

It's that simple!

JLB
Do you do any or the things listed here?
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

DO YOU SIN? How come you get a pass and others are condemned? Do you know any Christain that is not guilty of these things at times? or that does not sin?

I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

The key phrase you overlook, those who practice those things.

JLB
Oh, so you mean you dont do them as much as other people? Do you do these things on a daily basis? hourly, weekly etc... They are still works of the flesh. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident,
And most christians do practice these things daily, but it does not mean they are not saved, it means they are walking in the flesh and cannot receive spiritual things from heaven.

I have only read to here on this thread, so this may be answered below, but I think he's saying there is a difference in living IN SIN, cut off from God and a Christian who sins then repents. Take the homosexual lifestyle for instance. There is a difference between a person with those tendencies who tries to remain celebate, yet gives into temptation, then repents and the person who LIVES their lifestyle outwardly. Both are sinful acts, the difference is the first person KNOWS it's wrong and repents, the second is living contrary to God's commands and doesn't care. He is in open rebellion to God.

What do you think James means by "justified" in James 2?
 
I was adressing the issue of those who attempt to put a standard upon others, that they do not keep themselves.
You were arguing with the standard.

How does my hypocrisy, if I had any, somehow negate the standard, or make it impossible to impose the standard the Bible sets?

OSAS says that standard doesn't really exist, that ultimately faith without works really can save, or worse, no faith or works at all can save. OSAS vehemently denies James' teaching that dead faith can't save when pressed on the issue. And as a response non-OSAS gets attacked for being judgmental for defending James' setting of the standard for proof of salvation, and somehow hypocrisy makes it so we can't say there is a standard.

Where does James ever say," dead faith in Christ can't save?" (one has to force James into saying this specific false interpretation)

2 Tim 2:11-13 Paul uses His Favorite Hymn to show us 4 First class conditional clauses about faith in Christ.

11~~FAITHFUL . . . {IS} THE WORD/DOCTRINE.
"For you see . . .
if we have died with Him {Christ} - and we have -
at the same time also, we shall also live with Him, 12~~

if we endure suffering -and we do {in the SuperGrace Life}-
we shall also rule with Him {a SuperGrace reward in
Eternity Future},

if we repudiate/deny/refuse Him -and we {some of us} do
{reversionism - rejecting bible teaching} - that same One
{Jesus} also will refuse/deny us {rewards in eternity
future}, 13~~

if we {believers in carnality} are unfaithful/believe not {to/in
bible doctrine} - and we {some of us} do - He abides/
remains faithful
{where the title of the hymn is taken}."......the "corpse" of the Faith James is talking about. Useless in Gods plan for your Life. But HE IS FAITHFUL.

For you see, He {Jesus} can not deny Himself
{we are in Union with Christ and are part of Him}.

This fragment of a hymn references many doctrines: Retroactive Positional truth, Current Positional Truth, Suffering in the SuperGrace life, Ruling with Christ in Eternity Future, Reversionism, loss of SuperGrace rewards in time and eternity for Reversionists, and the doctrine of Eternal Security.
 
I don't PRACTICE those sins that Paul mentioned.

The key phrase you overlook, those who practice those things.

JLB
Oh, so you mean you dont do them as much as other people? Do you do these things on a daily basis? hourly, weekly etc... They are still works of the flesh. 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident,
And most christians do practice these things daily, but it does not mean they are not saved, it means they are walking in the flesh and cannot receive spiritual things from heaven.

I have only read to here on this thread, so this may be answered below, but I think he's saying there is a difference in living IN SIN, cut off from God and a Christian who sins then repents. Take the homosexual lifestyle for instance. There is a difference between a person with those tendencies who tries to remain celebate, yet gives into temptation, then repents and the person who LIVES their lifestyle outwardly. Both are sinful acts, the difference is the first person KNOWS it's wrong and repents, the second is living contrary to God's commands and doesn't care. He is in open rebellion to God.

What do you think James means by "justified" in James 2?
Yes, of course point to anothers sin, to justify ones own? That is not the gospel nor does it relate to the scripture in which we are speaking. The scripture says these are the works of the flesh;

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now, to qualify this as to say well "I do not do them as much as so and so", is to excuse ones own flesh and to judge anothers. To make these scriptures a condition of salvation is to miss the point. Also I would ask you, do you hold yourself and those in your religion to this standard?
 
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