James 2 And OSAS

[jasoncran]

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people.

This is absolutely untrue. EVERY ONE of the "non-OSAS people" believe it can happen to them. I have apostatized in the past and came back. I MUST be vigilant so I will not fall again in the future. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

If you don't believe that other people who think as I do on this subject believe it can happen to them, smaller, simply ask the question here. There has to be at least 5 people here besides myself who are in my camp. Ask them if the possibility of losing salvation is ONLY for others, or if it's possible for them to lose their salvation also. Go ahead....ask.

I am one if I didn't repent of being a bisexual. I almost left a church over this:

there is a gay preacher that comes out and says im gay and I always have and for years the man was a pastor. the pastor was teaching the bible study who tells the story and still tells he is saved because he did repent and also then told him to celebet rather then come out

I have been there. I don't that think man was saved when he made that choice. he walked away.

 

[dadof10]

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people.

This is absolutely untrue. EVERY ONE of the "non-OSAS people" believe it can happen to them. I have apostatized in the past and came back. I MUST be vigilant so I will not fall again in the future. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

If you don't believe that other people who think as I do on this subject believe it can happen to them, smaller, simply ask the question here. There has to be at least 5 people here besides myself who are in my camp. Ask them if the possibility of losing salvation is ONLY for others, or if it's possible for them to lose their salvation also. Go ahead....ask.

I am one if I didn't repent of being a bisexual. I almost left a church over this:

there is a gay preacher that comes out and says im gay and I always have and for years the man was a pastor. the pastor was teaching the bible study who tells the story and still tells he is saved because he did repent and also then told him to celebet rather then come out

I have been there. I don't that man was saved when he made that choice. he walked away.

Thank you, Jason. I'm sure you'll agree that it was ONLY by the Grace of God that either one of us repented from our previous lives. We had to obey, but even THAT was by Grace...

 

[jeff77]

Has anyone ever heard of the book "Saved and Certain" Written by T.G. Davis in 1955. It cannot be found in book stores anymore unless there is one I don't know about. My dad ordered it on Amazon. Anyway I just started reading it

 

[jeff77]

We know also by the testimony of God's Word. It says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed from death unto life". (John 5:24). Consciousness, coupled with the testimony of God's Word, should be evidence sufficient to make every believer know that he is saved. There is nothing that silences the devil like being able to say unto him, "I am saved, and I know it".

This is from the the book "Saved and Certain" I think it's pretty convincing.

 

[jasoncran]

ok , I as a non-oaser don't doubt that but., and big but. we are to do what commands from Christ? if we ignore this and to the point of knowingly and stubborningly resistance are we really saved? baptism,communion, making disciples.loving on another, forgiving each other and all those who offend us.

 

[jeff77]

In the book he describes how if a true believer went astray from God for a while and was allowed to lose his salvation and died and went to hell, then that would be like Satan snatching a soul from him and having victory over God.
That's a pretty good way to explain how non-OSAS could not be possible to me at least.

 

[jeff77]

if we ignore this and to the point of knowingly and stubborningly resistance are we really saved?

So that is back to the question of wether or not someone was saved in the first place, but not wether they could lose it or not. Or am I wrong?

 

[jasoncran]

well I believe one can change one's mind. that is why I often laugh at the arguments of the Baptists and all those into eternal security vs the Calvinist here. as I see it there's no difference tween the two. if ya want that sin and just prayed a prayer and was faithful for a season then drift away and deny god in action no matter what per the eternal security doctrine god will save them per your doctrine.

 

[MarkT]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation.

I don't care who you are, you gotta love this kind of faith.

But James says that 'kind of faith' is seen in obedience, not in disobedience. He says a disobedient faith can not save.

In general, disobedience signifies a powerless, dead faith, one not able to save. While an obedient faith, one that acts in accordance with 'love your neighbor as yourself' is able to save. But OSAS doesn't even consider this teaching.

The danger, of course, is thinking James is saying the obedience does the saving in the sense of earning one's salvation. That's not what James is saying. He's merely pointing out that the faith that saves is the faith that is obedient to God in accordance with the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

OSAS relies on other things to validate saving faith, and really just ends up contradicting what James is saying. The (Protestant?) church has been taught to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith" (1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV) by something other than what the Bible says in several places to use to do that, because OSAS doesn't believe that what you do has anything whatsoever to do with your salvation. They don't understand that what you do is how we can know the status of one's salvation.

It's almost impossible to tell anyone born of the Spirit of God that they can fall. It would be like telling God he can fall. See what I mean? All I see is an innocent faith.

I don't know what the OSAS people believe regarding works but it is in our nature to love our brethren.

Of course one can be overcome by the cares of this world. If you have no root in yourself, let's say you are following a false teacher. If he goes over, you go over. You could die from lack of water - sound doctrine. Blaspheming the Spirit of God, acting like the Pharisee and not the Samaritan, if you hate your brethren, passing judgment on your brethren, if you love your life, you could lose it. If you are angry with your brother, if you mistreat him, if you call him a fool, you will be liable. If you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. Unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[francisdesales]

[MENTION=3354]francisdesales[/MENTION] You can't become unsaved. Why does that fact upset you.

I have a feeling that we mean something different from what "being saved" means.

If you mean when we were first redeemed and made children of God at our baptism, I would agree. You cannot undo that. No matter what you do in the future, the past has already happened (despite what OSAS states, which claims the past never actually happened...)

If you mean we are going to heaven just because we were once upon a time baptized, you would have to point me to some Scriptures that state this, because I can cite from practically EVERY book of the NT that states that man's eternal fate is dependent upon God's judgment of man's behavior here on earth.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The question is what does God allow to happen when a man chooses to turn away. Does God drag that man unwillingly back to Him??? Does God force that man to worship Him and obey Him???

When I turned away and took a "vacation from Christianity" it was the Holy Spirit that made it uncomfortable and painful to continue that path. So, is it possible that someone that is saved but on their "vacation" to die before they have the chance to come back? Yes, but does that mean they weren't still saved at the time? In my opinion No

It is a spurious argument, quite frankly. Sophistry.

If you doubt whether you were "really" saved at a later date (which explains why some of my separated brothers feel the need to baptize and rebaptize because the first one "didn't take"), how do you even know you are saved NOW??? Is one's past "salvation" based on what you are going to do in the FUTURE? Really??? This is incredibly odd, don't you think?

What objective basis can you claim to say you are even saved now, if one can argue "you never were saved to begin with", being said to people who THOUGHT that they were following Christ?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

[MENTION=3354]francisdesales[/MENTION]. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit enters your heart when you become saved? If so, Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to part from you?

Yes to the first question.
Yes to the second question.

There is no biblical warrant that backs up the claim that the Holy Spirit cannot leave an INDIVIDUAL. He will not leave the CHURCH, the community.

Regards

 

[Butch5]

We know also by the testimony of God's Word. It says, "He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation ; but is passed from death unto life". (John 5:24). Consciousness, coupled with the testimony of God's Word, should be evidence sufficient to make every believer know that he is saved. There is nothing that silences the devil like being able to say unto him, "I am saved, and I know it".

This is from the the book "Saved and Certain" I think it's pretty convincing.

Hi Jeff,

That verse is true, however, one must understand it properly. In the Greek, John uses the present tense of believe. It literally reads, the one who "is believing" have everlasting life. if one "is believing" they can be sure. However, there is nothing in this statement that says one cannot choose to stop believing.

 

[Butch5]

In the book he describes how if a true believer went astray from God for a while and was allowed to lose his salvation and died and went to hell, then that would be like Satan snatching a soul from him and having victory over God.
That's a pretty good way to explain how non-OSAS could not be possible to me at least.

No, that's a logical fallacy. It's a false dilemma. It suggests that there are only two options, either one is snatched from God's hand or not. It's a fallacy because there are more than two options, it is possible for one to choose to leave God's hand.

 

[Butch5]

Why not?

Because salvation is a gift. If you did lose your salvation wouldn't you have to do something to get it back and doesn't the Bible say we are saved by faith and not of works? So, in other words you can only get your salvation back by doing works, which the Bible clearly says you can't do.

Actually, The Scriptures say one can't get it back. However, the works issue is misunderstood. What Paul is addressing in the works argument is an issue with the Judaizers who were telling his comverts that it was necessary for them to keep the Law of Moses in addition to faith in Christ. He was "NOT" saying that a person does nothing towards their salvation. Jesus and Paul both say those who do good will receive eternal life.

I'm still not sure though why you think it cannot be lost.

 

[Butch5]

Why not?

Because salvation is a gift. If you did lose your salvation wouldn't you have to do something to get it back and doesn't the Bible say we are saved by faith and not of works? So, in other words you can only get your salvation back by doing works, which the Bible clearly says you can't do.

Paul is comparing being saved by faith v works of the law - the Mosaic Law is not the standard of salvation, since it would leave out the Gentiles. So, no, the Mosaic Law does not save, it cannot help us do the will of the Father. Only the Holy Spirit can do that, and He is available to all, Greek and Jew.

The problem is expanding the defintion of initial salvation to eternal salvation that cannot be lost. The Bible doesn't support that idea - we are judged based on what we do. We are freely given the grace of redemption and justification, but do we maintain that? Do we live it? Do we continue to believe? Let us hope so. Let us not presume it.

Regards

 

[Guest]

If you mean we are going to heaven just because we were once upon a time baptized, you would have to point me to some Scriptures that state this, because I can cite from practically EVERY book of the NT that states that man's eternal fate is dependent upon God's judgment of man's behavior here on earth.

Regards

Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[MarkT]

We are servants after all and the word 'servant' implies work. Servants are workers. In the parables we see the good servant gets rewarded and the bad servant gets punished or cast out.

 

[MarkT]

One man believes in God's ability to keep him from falling. The other man believes in his own ability. I believe good works will get you a reward, maybe a better seat at the table. Bad works will get you cast out. But I believe we are the work of God. If God has given us a job to do and we do it, we are only doing what we were called to do. In the Bible wisdom, knowledge and understanding are commodities like gold, silver and precious jewels. God gives to each of us a certain amount and he says if you receive my words and you treasure up my commandments with you then you will understand the fear of the LORD and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding. The good servant invests what was given to him and his investment increases. He grows in wisdom, knowledge and understanding so that when the Lord returns he delivers to him more than he was given. The bad servant does not invest what he was given. When the Lord returns he just gives him what he received. The good servant receives a reward. The bad servant is punished. So if you are in a church that doesn't allow you to grow, you should be more than a bit wary.

 

[dadof10]

When I turned away and took a "vacation from Christianity" it was the Holy Spirit that made it uncomfortable and painful to continue that path. So, is it possible that someone that is saved but on their "vacation" to die before they have the chance to come back? Yes, but does that mean they weren't still saved at the time? In my opinion No

If the person died while they were still living their sinful lifestyle, before they "came back", would they still go to Heaven? if not, I think you would have a hard time explaining how this person was "still saved at the time".