James 2 And OSAS

[Jethro Bodine]

I posted James 2 and some commentary on why I think he means "shown" to man, not God alone. Do you agree or disagree? Gotta get to work...

I'm of the conviction, based on other scripture, that this 'showing' of one's faith through what we do is primarily for our own personal benefit.

 

[Deborah13]

If there is only one right answer here and wether you hold the "yes" position or the no position on OSAS don't you think that if you truly love and truly believe in Jesus and care about telling other people about him, don't you think he would forgive you if you had it wrong and accept you into heaven anyway?

Yes!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

... why can't they rejoice in the fact that the Lord will accomplish His work in the believer?

Blessing Deb

Deborah13: Exactly; Paul says: 'He that hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ' (Philippians 1.6).

Blessings.

Well, the argument goes this is a testimony to God's faithfulness, not ours. You have to trust and believe in God's faithfulness to his promises in order to remain in the surety of those promises. Once you believe and trust in those promises is it possible to then not believe and trust in those promises? The NT seems to indicate rather clearly that is indeed possible, thus the warnings to not fail in our trust in the promises.

We don't appreciate this concept of the supremacy of Christ's ministry on our behalf because we in the church don't understand very well how, in the old covenant, successful intercession with God for the common man was determined by the good standing of the priest ministering on your behalf. If he did not perform his duties properly the people of God did not receive the benefit that the priest's intercession sought to gain. Pretty much an alien understanding to us in the church today. We can't fully appreciate the NT scriptures that speak of the supremacy of Christ's ministry, and therefore, the effectiveness and surety of Christ's ministry. Can you imagine what it was like knowing you had the clown ministry* of Eli and his sons determining your fate with God? I know it's largely symbolic for our future appreciation of Christ's ministry, but it makes the point well.

* No offense intended to anyone in the clown ministry, lol.

 

[Deborah13]

We don't appreciate this concept of the supremacy of Christ's ministry on our behalf because we in the church don't understand very well how, in the old covenant, successful intercession with God for the common man was determined by the good standing of the priest ministering on your behalf.

Wish I could post your post on every thread about our salvation! This is an excellent post and to the point. We like to think it's all about us, it's not, it's about Him and His ministry that we are suppose to be carrying out with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

You are right, it is His faithfulness and His righteousness as the sinless, perfect, High Priest.

 

[jeff77]

Had what wrong, the truth about OSAS? If that's what you mean, I say it doesn't matter. Too many people in the church think correct doctrine is how you please God and how you validate the reality of your salvation. No, godly character is how we know we have passed from death to life. Which is what James is teaching. The faith that is ultimately acted out in obedience consistent with the claim that faith makes is what validates that faith as able to save.

Yes, I meant the truth about OSAS. I also agree with what you say here.
By the way, is your real name Javier?

 

[Elijah674]

Had what wrong, the truth about OSAS? If that's what you mean, I say it doesn't matter. Too many people in the church think correct doctrine is how you please God and how you validate the reality of your salvation. No, godly character is how we know we have passed from death to life. Which is what James is teaching. The faith that is ultimately acted out in obedience consistent with the claim that faith makes is what validates that faith as able to save.

Yes, I meant the truth about OSAS. I also agree with what you say here.
By the way, is your real name Javier?

What on earth is doctrine if not Godly character??? They [go together] like Isa. 5:3 DEMANDS!

--Elijah

 

[jeff77]

What on earth is doctrine if not Godly character??? They [go together] like Isa. 5:3 DEMANDS!

Yes, I see what your saying. If we are teaching the wrong doctrine then what kind of Godly character is that?

 

[jasoncran]

ok, he is talking to a bunch of Christians. while im not advocating legalism, but its like this if one is saved, then why do I need to be told to endure? if its already done or to overcome if its already done?

remember the blotting out thing.he that overcomes .. I will not blot out. what does that mean? yes our faith overcomes. I accept that but It does also he that is faithful to the end shall receive a reward.

I got sick of living a life of constant condemnation Jason.

Sooner or later it will wear you down or eliminate faith altogether.

Constant vacillation in and out of salvation ain't no picnic life in faith either.

s

who said that. I know all about that from the Jehovah witness. the problem you have is this.

yes one can go to heaven and not really be disciplined in life with the spiritual matters. one must choose to be under that chastistement in order to grow God will only spend time growing the man who wants to go. salvation doesn't hinge on that.

that is from several eternal security types. they also say that one will get few rewards in heaven. so let me guess that right we can love god with a simple prayer and not want to grow and yet he will accept that? uhm he does call us into growth

 

[MarkT]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation.

I don't care who you are, you gotta love this kind of faith.

 

[francisdesales]

Define salvation, then we can determine whether we can lose it or not. That would move things in the right direction.

Salvation is God the Father loving us first before we loved him. Who is God the Father and what is he capable of? :amen

The question is not what God is capable of, sir. God can do away with hell and force the devils to be "good" little servants. God can bring ALL men to heaven, even the Hitler's and Stalin's and Judas's

The question is what does God allow to happen when a man chooses to turn away. Does God drag that man unwillingly back to Him??? Does God force that man to worship Him and obey Him???

There doesn't seem to be a biblical warrant for that.

Regards

 

[jeff77]

The question is what does God allow to happen when a man chooses to turn away. Does God drag that man unwillingly back to Him??? Does God force that man to worship Him and obey Him???

When I turned away and took a "vacation from Christianity" it was the Holy Spirit that made it uncomfortable and painful to continue that path. So, is it possible that someone that is saved but on their "vacation" to die before they have the chance to come back? Yes, but does that mean they weren't still saved at the time? In my opinion No

 

[Deborah13]

When I turned away and took a "vacation from Christianity" it was the Holy Spirit that made it uncomfortable and painful to continue that path. So, is it possible that someone that is saved but on their "vacation" to die before they have the chance to come back? Yes, but does that mean they weren't still saved at the time? In my opinion No

I think sometimes it is a person's fear of eternal damnation that keeps them on the straight path.
Sometimes when one takes a 'vacation' and the Holy Spirit just keeps working on them and their 'vacation' is really not so good, they come back with a different attitude about God and His grace towards us. And there can be times when their 'vacation' was better than before in earthly ways, but the Holy Spirit still keeps working on them and when they come back they are so overwhelmed by the goodness of God that they can't even understand the goodness of God it's SO BIG.

 

[Guest]

[MENTION=3354]francisdesales[/MENTION] You can't become unsaved. Why does that fact upset you.

 

[jeff77]

I think sometimes it is a person's fear of eternal damnation that keeps them on the straight path.
Sometimes when one takes a 'vacation' and the Holy Spirit just keeps working on them and their 'vacation' is really not so good, they come back with a different attitude about God and His grace towards us. And there can be times when their 'vacation' was better than before in earthly ways, but the Holy Spirit still keeps working on them and when they come back they are so overwhelmed by the goodness of God that they can't even understand the goodness of God it's SO BIG.

I like what you say here and my "vacation" may be part of God's plan anyway. Maybe he wanted me to experience it so that I can help others to return from their vacation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Had what wrong, the truth about OSAS? If that's what you mean, I say it doesn't matter. Too many people in the church think correct doctrine is how you please God and how you validate the reality of your salvation. No, godly character is how we know we have passed from death to life. Which is what James is teaching. The faith that is ultimately acted out in obedience consistent with the claim that faith makes is what validates that faith as able to save.

Yes, I meant the truth about OSAS. I also agree with what you say here.
By the way, is your real name Javier?

No, but except for the hair, skin, teeth, eyes, chiseled features, and physique I pretty much look like him.

 

[jeff77]

[MENTION=3354]francisdesales[/MENTION]. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit enters your heart when you become saved? If so, Is it possible for the Holy Spirit to part from you?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Had what wrong, the truth about OSAS? If that's what you mean, I say it doesn't matter. Too many people in the church think correct doctrine is how you please God and how you validate the reality of your salvation. No, godly character is how we know we have passed from death to life. Which is what James is teaching. The faith that is ultimately acted out in obedience consistent with the claim that faith makes is what validates that faith as able to save.

Yes, I meant the truth about OSAS. I also agree with what you say here.
By the way, is your real name Javier?

What on earth is doctrine if not Godly character??? They [go together] like Isa. 5:3 DEMANDS!

--Elijah

No, they don't.

Let's look at the 'doctrine' of the Jews (what they believed) and see if it was somehow different from, and contrasted with, their character in God's eyes:

"“‘Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. 3 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place. 4 Do not trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord!” 5 If you really change your ways and your actions and deal with each other justly, 6 if you do not oppress the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow and do not shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm, 7 then I will let you live in this place, in the land I gave your ancestors for ever and ever. 8 But look, you are trusting in deceptive words that are worthless.

9 “‘Will you steal and murder, commit adultery and perjury, burn incense to Baal and follow other gods you have not known, 10 and then come and stand before me in this house, which bears my Name, and say, “We are safe”—safe to do all these detestable things?" (Jeremiah 7:2-10 NIV)

You see, their reverence for the law and the temple and what they thought about them could not, and did not, somehow replace or make up for their lack of godly character.


In fact, Paul points out how it's possible that the doctrinally correct circumcised fellow will be condemned by the uncircumcised fellow:

"27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker." (Romans 2:27 NIV)

The only time doctrine and external religious practices matter is if they keep you from having godly character--you know--how you treat other people. Doctrines about the facts of Christianity and it's externals is not the ends. Being Christlike in character is the ends.

Too many people take confidence in their doctrine and their worship beliefs and practices instead of their character to measure the assurance of their salvation. James uses at least four Mosaic laws to demonstrate it is how we treat other people that determines--for our sake--if the faith we have can save us. Dadof10 says OSAS ignores this very important teaching of scripture. Scripture emphasizes the fruit of the Spirit as that which validates whether you're really saved or not...not the one-time ceremonial or legalistic things the church generally says validates salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

[MENTION=3354]francisdesales[/MENTION] You can't become unsaved. Why does that fact upset you.

The real question is, "can a person one day reject the justification they have received by trusting in the forgiveness of God?" Can a person really change their mind about wanting God's forgiveness for their sins? I personally don't know the answer to that. But I do know what will happen if they do stop trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Good works is how we know we are continuing in the blood of Christ for justification. Can a justified person one day decide they do not want God's declaration of righteousness (justification) anymore? I don't know. I just know you can't have it if you reject it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't understand how one can lose their salvation.

I don't care who you are, you gotta love this kind of faith.

But James says that 'kind of faith' is seen in obedience, not in disobedience. He says a disobedient faith can not save.

In general, disobedience signifies a powerless, dead faith, one not able to save. While an obedient faith, one that acts in accordance with 'love your neighbor as yourself' is able to save. But OSAS doesn't even consider this teaching.

The danger, of course, is thinking James is saying the obedience does the saving in the sense of earning one's salvation. That's not what James is saying. He's merely pointing out that the faith that saves is the faith that is obedient to God in accordance with the royal law of scripture, 'love your neighbor as yourself'.

OSAS relies on other things to validate saving faith, and really just ends up contradicting what James is saying. The (Protestant?) church has been taught to "examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith" (1 Corinthians 13:5 NIV) by something other than what the Bible says in several places to use to do that, because OSAS doesn't believe that what you do has anything whatsoever to do with your salvation. They don't understand that what you do is how we can know the status of one's salvation.

 

[smaller]

You misunderstand if you think that to not believe the OSAS argument means you believe a person vacillates in and out of salvation when they sin.

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people. Methodology varies almost to the person. I didn't limit the matter to 'sin.' It can be any number of false standards. Failure to submit to supposed greater authorities is actually a biggie I hear.

It's when a person consciously and willing refuses to repent, that is when he has removed himself from the grace of salvation.

Maybe that's just your particular threat factor. As long as you 'do the drill' yer always OK though, right? Riiight.

And even then, it is the Lord who makes the determination who has truly sinned beyond reach of his grace, and who has not.

So even if you sincerely repent you may be too late or not even know huh?

Oh well, maybe the methodology wasn't so hot after all?

s