James 2 And OSAS

[Rollo Tamasi]

While an obedient faith, in accordance with 'love your neighbor as yourself' is able to save. But OSAS doesn't even consider this teaching.

I don't think you should say that.
Who's interpretation of "OSAS" are you using?
I think most OSAS people don't even think on these terms.
Simply put, I think that most people who say they believe in OSAS don't know how to debate it, they just receive it as true.
Therefore, it becomes personal between them and God.
Some people on this thread give the impression that unless they see a person's good works, then they are probably going to hell.

James 2 - "Abraham believed God and God called it righteous". Abraham was justified because he believed God. How is that something that you can see?
Did anyone see Abraham offer his son to God other than God?
So what is it that we are suppose to see?
I think it's if a person loves Jesus and the fruits of the Spirit are present in that person's life.
Let's not judge somebody else's servant .
If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand.

And that's the bottom line.
If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand. Romans 14:4

That's how I see OSAS.

 

[smaller]

who said that. I know all about that from the Jehovah witness. the problem you have is this.

yes one can go to heaven and not really be disciplined in life with the spiritual matters. one must choose to be under that chastistement in order to grow God will only spend time growing the man who wants to go. salvation doesn't hinge on that.

that is from several eternal security types.

I don't doubt whatsoever that believers are dealt with in different manners. So what?

they also say that one will get few rewards in heaven. so let me guess that right we can love god with a simple prayer and not want to grow and yet he will accept that? uhm he does call us into growth

The 'rewards' system is largely guesswork. All are members of One Body regardless. Paul does a good job pointing out the ignorant futility of a body part boasting against another body part.

s

 

[dadof10]

If we see one who claims to be a Christian today who is producing fruit yet 10 years from now he has returned to the old life and his old sinful ways the OSAS crowd claims he was never saved to begin with. So all that time he thought he was a Christian and was producing fruit, according to the OSAS crown he was nothing more than a lost sinner. Since no one knows the future no one can really say with certainty that they will not change their mind in the future and return to the old life, thus they cannot know now if they saved.

Excellent. To those who think "justified" in James 2 means "shown to be righteous", wouldn't this "fruit" prove their "true faith"? If this is their definition, then the "was never saved..." excuse falls flat. They WERE actually saved because they "showed" their "saving faith" by their "fruit".

 

[dadof10]

I've not heard anyone who believes they are saved to the end not be.

Huh? Doesn't EVERY BELIEVER think they are "saved to the end"? Have you ever known anyone who has said "Yeah, I'm saved now, but not to the end. In the future I will apostatize...". No one THINKS they will "fall away", but what people think right after initial justification and 5, 10, 20 years down the road are SOMETIMES two different things.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Excellent. To those who think "justified" in James 2 means "shown to be righteous", wouldn't this "fruit" prove their "true faith"? If this is their definition, then the "was never saved..." excuse falls flat. They WERE actually saved because they "showed" their "saving faith" by their "fruit".

Does this make you feel good to say this?
I don't see how it edifies the body of Christ.

 

[dadof10]

i know but he is a reformer. calvin was the first to postulate the idea of eternal security.

No he was not. Calvin did not develop anything new.

show me where the rcc, the orthodox , the easter church pushed limited free will and eternal security.

kindly, even if im wrong show me that one can escape the pollutions of this world without Christ.

What does that have to do with eternal security, with assurance of salvation?

Look, my point is to the OP. This idea that a person can not know they are saved to the end, that they are held by the grace of God, by god himself, is a faithless notion.

The idea that God will force a person to remain saved when they want to rebel is a non-Biblical notion.

It is not God telling anyone they are not saved. Only Satin says that.

Really? There are not ANY references in AAAALLLL of Scripture where God tells someone they are NOT saved? You might want to pull that comment back a bit.

Calvin, Luther, Paul, Agustin...add any name you want, did not invent an idea of eternal salvation that was not from God.

Only Calvin teaches it. The other three don't.

The idea than Jame 2:24 says we are not saved by grace, is dead wrong, and is either a misreading of the scripture or something more sinister. That's not the message of James.

Who has EVER said that? I just don't limit God's Grace to faith alone. God WORKS within the believer to produce good deeds. You are mistaken.

 

[dadof10]

f: Protestants are usually not particularly interested; this is why they tend to look to and quote from the Bible, Sir.

I know this is off topic but, why is that? Why aren't Protestants particularly interested in what the orthodox believers who taught directly after the apostles had to say?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You misunderstand if you think that to not believe the OSAS argument means you believe a person vacillates in and out of salvation when they sin.

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people.

Why do you think it's part of what they believe then?

Methodology varies almost to the person. I didn't limit the matter to 'sin.' It can be any number of false standards. Failure to submit to supposed greater authorities is actually a biggie I hear.

How does what you are obedient to decide whether OSAS is correct, or not?

It's when a person consciously and willing refuses to repent, that is when he has removed himself from the grace of salvation.

Maybe that's just your particular threat factor. As long as you 'do the drill' yer always OK though, right? Riiight.

No. As long as I continue to trust in the blood of Jesus I'm OK. And I can tell if I'm continuing to trust by whether or not I'm walking according to the fruit of the Spirit. That would be my defense of a non-OSAS doctrine if I officially held a non-OSAS belief.

And even then, it is the Lord who makes the determination who has truly sinned beyond reach of his grace, and who has not.

So even if you sincerely repent you may be too late or not even know huh?

As far as being in this age goes, I'm of the conviction that the person who rejects the forgiveness of God (which is then the cause of their visible disobedience) will, eventually, not have the grace of God present to even be convicted about having made that decision. The conviction itself to be aware of one's lostness is itself a product of God's grace. But since they have rejected God's grace, God will not be pestering them with an appeal to be convicted of their rejection of Christ. Think about it.

But at the judgment many will be cut to heart about the decision they have made to reject the gracious inheritance of the saints:

"16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done." (Hebrews 13:16-17 NIV)

"24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’

“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from." (Luke 13:24-25 NIV)

 

[dadof10]

We renege on promises all the time, like ToS 2.5. But God doesn't renege.

:biglol Are you still carrying this around? Tell me again how you are "not indignant or angry"...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we see one who claims to be a Christian today who is producing fruit yet 10 years from now he has returned to the old life and his old sinful ways the OSAS crowd claims he was never saved to begin with. So all that time he thought he was a Christian and was producing fruit, according to the OSAS crown he was nothing more than a lost sinner. Since no one knows the future no one can really say with certainty that they will not change their mind in the future and return to the old life, thus they cannot know now if they saved.

Excellent. To those who think "justified" in James 2 means "shown to be righteous", wouldn't this "fruit" prove their "true faith"? If this is their definition, then the "was never saved..." excuse falls flat. They WERE actually saved because they "showed" their "saving faith" by their "fruit".

Fundamentally this is a valid argument.

OSAS boasts of it's assurance of faith, but the point being made is you really can't have that assurance if, after all, when you fail the assurance you were sure you had really wasn't that at all. Think about it folks.

I'm trying to be an honest person. If an argument has merit I'm going to get behind it. That doesn't mean I accept everything a particular camp believes. It means I'm honest enough to recognize what is right about what they say.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

While an obedient faith, in accordance with 'love your neighbor as yourself' is able to save. But OSAS doesn't even consider this teaching.

I don't think you should say that.
Who's interpretation of "OSAS" are you using?
I think most OSAS people don't even think on these terms.
Simply put, I think that most people who say they believe in OSAS don't know how to debate it, they just receive it as true.
Therefore, it becomes personal between them and God.
Some people on this thread give the impression that unless they see a person's good works, then they are probably going to hell.

James 2 - "Abraham believed God and God called it righteous". Abraham was justified because he believed God. How is that something that you can see?
Did anyone see Abraham offer his son to God other than God?
So what is it that we are suppose to see?
I think it's if a person loves Jesus and the fruits of the Spirit are present in that person's life.
Let's not judge somebody else's servant .
If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand.

And that's the bottom line.
If he belongs to Jesus, then Jesus will make him stand. Romans 14:4

That's how I see OSAS.

I will clarify myself later. This deserves more than just a quick response.

Heading off to town to pick up the wiper linkage arm I ordered for my daughter's car.

 

[dadof10]

I'm of the conviction, based on other scripture, that this 'showing' of one's faith through what we do is primarily for our own personal benefit.

Good, I'm glad you saw this and started posting here, Jethro. I don't always (never? ) agree with you, but I always (always) like your insights.

"Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."

This seems to be saying that it's possible to "show" our faith to others. Which "other Scripture" do you mean?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm of the conviction, based on other scripture, that this 'showing' of one's faith through what we do is primarily for our own personal benefit.

Good, I'm glad you saw this and started posting here, Jethro. I don't always (never? ) agree with you, but I always (always) like your insights.

"Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."

This seems to be saying that it's possible to "show" our faith to others. Which "other Scripture" do you mean?

Glad you asked. I was hoping someone would.

I'll running off just now. I'll be back later.

And thank you for your conciliatory attitude. What, are you saved or something? Lol!

 

[dadof10]

Excellent. To those who think "justified" in James 2 means "shown to be righteous", wouldn't this "fruit" prove their "true faith"? If this is their definition, then the "was never saved..." excuse falls flat. They WERE actually saved because they "showed" their "saving faith" by their "fruit".

Does this make you feel good to say this?
I don't see how it edifies the body of Christ.

Huh??? How does this offend you? Was it the word "excuse"?

 

[dadof10]

I'm of the conviction, based on other scripture, that this 'showing' of one's faith through what we do is primarily for our own personal benefit.

Good, I'm glad you saw this and started posting here, Jethro. I don't always (never? ) agree with you, but I always (always) like your insights.

"Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith."

This seems to be saying that it's possible to "show" our faith to others. Which "other Scripture" do you mean?

Glad you asked. I was hoping someone would.

I'll running off just now. I'll be back later.

And thank you for your conciliatory attitude. What, are you saved or something? Lol!

Yep, just showing my "saving faith"....maybe

 

[jasoncran]

ok. if the torah was given the nation of isreal so that the nations around them would know of YHWH. what makes the osaser think that its not the same case for the Christian today? living life is important and a part of the salvation. I know that many a pastors who teach eternal security would agree. why then do some disagree that if we do come to Christ from severe bondage that we don't need rules and guidance and to actually do them so that we accept the change from god. its not the way to be saved but evidence that we are in fact on of His. I mean we must demonstrate the heart's change.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Huh??? How does this offend you? Was it the word "excuse"?

Attitude. Maybe you don't see it.

 

[dadof10]

Well, strange thing about the non-OSAS people. They never really believe that happens to them. Only to the other people.

This is absolutely untrue. EVERY ONE of the "non-OSAS people" believe it can happen to them. I have apostatized in the past and came back. I MUST be vigilant so I will not fall again in the future. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

If you don't believe that other people who think as I do on this subject believe it can happen to them, smaller, simply ask the question here. There has to be at least 5 people here besides myself who are in my camp. Ask them if the possibility of losing salvation is ONLY for others, or if it's possible for them to lose their salvation also. Go ahead....ask.

 

[dadof10]

Huh??? How does this offend you? Was it the word "excuse"?

Attitude. Maybe you don't see it.

My son always says that sometimes people misunderstand the tone of an email because there is no voice inflection. If there was attitude in that post, it was unintentional.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Huh??? How does this offend you? Was it the word "excuse"?

Attitude. Maybe you don't see it.

My son always says that sometimes people misunderstand the tone of an email because there is no voice inflection. If there was attitude in that post, it was unintentional.

Thank you. I just sent you a personal message.