Jesus Christ Claims to be Yahweh - John 8:23-25

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As Jesus Christ Himself very clearly says in the OP as I have quoted, those who reject that He is Almighty God, The Great I am, "will die in their sins". Regardless of what else you might believe.
In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to Jesus Christ, "Your Throne O GOD is for ever and ever"

In verse 6 God the Father Commands that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPED!

In verses 10-12, God the Father says to Jesus Christ, that HE IS The ACTUAL CREATOR of the entire Universe!

So again The Word of God has proven you are 100% WRONG!!!
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)

Heb 1:9 thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (KJV)


Ok so let’s analyze your Hebrews 1:8-9 response he says your throne o God, and then he says “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” who has loved righteousness and hated iniquity or wickedness, well the God sitting on the throne of course.


And the he says therefore GOD YOUR GOD, whoops his God and again we find the words “His God” so this God on the throne has a God, that is two Gods, but wait it get’s worse. “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” so this God is anointed by his GOD to be ABOVE his fellows, so since we are talking about the God on the throne here, these fellows or companions can only be other Gods, and he has to be anointed by his God to be above them. so how many Gods do Trinitarians have? Seems like a lot more than one or three
 
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As Jesus Christ Himself very clearly says in the OP as I have quoted, those who reject that He is Almighty God, The Great I am, "will die in their sins". Regardless of what else you might believe.
the "i am he" reference is of the messiah not God

John 4:25 The woman says to him, I know that Messias comes, called Christ: when he should come, he will announce all things to us. (SLT)

John 4:26 Jesus says to her, I am he speaking to thee. (SLT)

God never called himself "i am" he called himself " the one who, who is, and who will be"
 
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What you write here is just waffle!

You are also reasoning because of your theology and not what the Bible actually teaches

No one can ever disprove the FACT that Jesus Christ is MIGHTY GOD which is the same as YHWH
are you sure how about God himself

Luke 1:32 He will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. And he will reign in the house of Jacob for eternity. (CPDV)

who is his father according to God
 
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Heb 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)

Heb 1:9 thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (KJV)


Ok so let’s analyze your Hebrews 1:8-9 response he says your throne o God, and then he says “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” who has loved righteousness and hated iniquity or wickedness, well the God sitting on the throne of course.


And the he says therefore GOD YOUR GOD, whoops his God and again we find the words “His God” so this God on the throne has a God, that is two Gods, but wait it get’s worse. “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” so this God is anointed by his GOD to be ABOVE his fellows, so since we are talking about the God on the throne here, these fellows or companions can only be other Gods, and he has to be anointed by his God to be above them. so how many Gods do Trinitarians have? Seems like a lot more than one or three

This is where you are wrong!

The Greek in verse 9 reads, “ὁ θεὸς ὁ θεός σου”, which is as verse 8, used as the vocative in direct address. the correct English is, "O God Your God", or more fully, "therefore O God, Your God, has anointed You". So we have TWO distinct Persons Who are equally called GOD.

The Jewish Hebrew scholar, Aquila, who published a Greek Version of the Old Testament, in the middle of the 2nd century A.D., translates the Hebrew, by the Greek, “ο θρονος σου θεε”, which is undoubtedly the vocative, “Your throne, O God”. (Fredrick Field, Origen Hexapla, vol. II, pp. 162-163)

In the Jewish Aramaic Targum on the Psalm, the words are used as a direct address to Jehovah, “The throne of Thy majesty, O Jehovah, abideth for ever and ever.” (Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges).

The Jewish Bible online, reads: “Thy throne, O God” (https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/tehillim-psalms-chapter-45). As is the reading of another Jewish Bible, “Thy throne, O God” (Dr A Benisch; Jewish School and Family Bible, Vol.IV).

The New Testament by the Unitarian, Dr George Noyes, reads: “but of the Son: ‘Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever”. He would have denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, yet it is clear from his own translation, that God the Father here calls Jesus Christ, GOD. In John 1:1, this version reads, “and the Word was God”. And, in John 1:18, “No one hath ever seen God; the only begotten God”. Clear references to the Deity of Jesus Christ, by a Unitarian!

The evidence is against what you say!
 
the "i am he" reference is of the messiah not God

John 4:25 The woman says to him, I know that Messias comes, called Christ: when he should come, he will announce all things to us. (SLT)

John 4:26 Jesus says to her, I am he speaking to thee. (SLT)

God never called himself "i am" he called himself " the one who, who is, and who will be"

In John 8:58 we have, "πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί", literally, "before Abraham came into existence, I AM". The contrast between, " γενέσθαι" (was), that is, "began to be" of Abraham; and " ἐγὼ εἰμί" the "timeless existence" of Jesus, is very important.

The Jews who clearly understood what Jesus said and meant, were going to stone Him, as we see in verse 59. Why? because they knew Jesus was here referring to Exodus 3:14, where the Greek Old Testament, the LXX, is very much right in what the Hebrew means, "Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν", which literally has the meaning, "I am He Who Exists", or "I am the Eternal One". Which is the basis of the Name of God in Hebrew, "YHWH". This Version was written much before the Birth of Jesus Christ!

You quote John 4:26, where the English version is wrong! The Greek reads, "Ἐγώ εἰμι", as it does in 8:58, and verses 24 and 28, literally, "I Am", there is not HE in any Greek manuscript!

Again Scripture has proved you wrong!
 
are you sure how about God himself

Luke 1:32 He will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father. And he will reign in the house of Jacob for eternity. (CPDV)

who is his father according to God

In Luke 1:13-17 it says

"13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, for your prayer has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15 for he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God, 17 and he will go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.”

The words, "and he will go before Him", is about John the Baptist who was the Herald to the First Coming of Jesus Christ. The "Him" here refers back to, "the Lord their God", Who is YHWH. The reference in Luke is from Malachi 4:6, "And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction", which are of YHWH!

Further, in Luke 1:76 we read;

"And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High; for you will go before the Lord to prepare His Ways"

Like the earlier passage in Luke, about John and Jesus Christ. Again this reference is from Isaiah 40:3, which is a clear Prophecy of the Coming of YHWH, which is The Coming of Jesus Christ!

Only someone who is blind, or has a bias, can ever honestly deny that the Bible is CLEAR, that Jesus Christ is YHWH, Almighty God, The Great I AM!
 
Greetings again BB1956,
The Hebrew word monogenes is translated as only begotten. However, the only begotten Son being called the only begotten Son means he is the sole direct creation of his Father, and God who is YHWH.
About 60 years later I have made a brief summary of where I disagree with one of the latest JW publications, and was still surprised at the many differences, the Kingdom, the person of Jesus Christ, Jesus is still a human, the reward of the faithful, Israel and the nations throughout the 1000 years, the Name of God, Yahweh, the resurrection of Jesus as a human and many other topics.

I have added the following thread that gives a brief summary of my assessment of the recent JW Book:

There could be many other JW beliefs and practices that could be discussed. One of my most recent contacts is a young couple distributed a leaflet inviting us to attend their annual "Memorial of Jesus' Death" in 2023. One of my mates and his wife who were in contact with some senior JWs accepted the invitation and were surprised that the bread and wine were passed along the rows and no one partook of this. This is in strong contrast with my fellowship that remembers Jesus' sacrifice every week and we actually partake of the bread and wine every week, not an annual event as with the JWs.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
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Here is what the scripture says -

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

  • the Word was God.
  • the Word became flesh
  • God was manifested in the flesh




JLB
After the scripture was altered it does say that. That's a problem, though, which is what my point has been. Altering the scripture to say something it doesn't is not good.

Do you believe we are allowed to add entirely new ideas or subtract ideas from the Bible?
 
God isn't a nature and that's all.
God has a nature that is exclusive to him; it’s what makes him God. He is wholly other than his creatures and none can become God in nature.

So the fact that someone like Jesus has the divine nature, a nature can't be singled out as the something he has that would allegedly make him God.
Jesus, as the Son, is also truly God, that is, God in nature in the same way the Father is God in nature. They are the same substance, the same essence, that is God.

Partaking of the divine nature is something that Peter said normal believers can do.

2 Peter 1​
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.​

With that being said, someone with a divine nature has the nature of God because God's nature is divine too.
You’re conflating different meanings and uses of “nature” and presuming a certain meaning of “partaker.” Perhaps start with 1 Pet 1:5 and Heb 2:10.

So the thing that some say is what makes Jesus God isn't something exclusive to Jesus.
Yes, it absolutely is. He is the one and only, unique Son of God. Again, can you provide just one example of a son that isn’t of the exact same nature as his father?

God has things about Him that are exclusive such as being God, not being a man, certain titles, being the Creator, and other characteristics like omniscience, omnipresence, etc.
Exactly. He has incommunicable attributes that are a part of his nature, which are distinct from his communicable attributes.

The things that are God's exclusives, Jesus doesn't have. Jesus isn't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, isn't the Creator of the universe, doesn't share all of the titles with God, wasn't immortal, etc.
You are doing violence to the text of Scripture by once again ignoring context, mainly John 1:1-3, 14, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, Phil 2:6-8, and Heb 1:2-3, 10-12. It’s even telling that you qualified Jesus’s sharing titles with God by “doesn’t share all of.”

I believe where Trinitarians misunderstand Jesus is that Jesus was a man whom God anointed, empowered, and dwelled with but that Jesus isn't himself God.
That is not what John, Thomas, or Paul believed. And it is not what Jesus believed about himself.

Jesus is the brother of believers and we are called to be like him.
He is also the Lord and God, so we are called to be like him in our behaviour and thoughts. At one point believers will be more physically like him, but none will be God like he is.

Yes I am aware of what Trinitarian theology is and why they believe what they do, but rather than go after each point you gave me I will simply disagree, but ask you a question in return.
I’m not surprised. It is the anti-Trinitarian M.O. to ignore everything that is too difficult. You’re taking things piecemeal instead of as a whole, which is not proper hermeneutics and leads to incorrect doctrine. That is why, like JWs, you take verses that speak clearly about Jesus’s humanity and use those to misinterpret and override those which speak clearly of his deity and equality with the Father, without any justification for doing so. If your position cannot account for everything, and it can’t, then it needs to change.

If you had to pick one thing about Jesus that undeniably says he is God beyond all doubt in your view, what would it be?
Case in point. We should never take one thing at a time; it is the totality of the evidence.
 
Matthew 3:3 and the other Gospels are very clear, that the Prophecy in Isaiah 40:3, The Coming of YHWH, is FULFILLED in the Coming of Jesus Christ.

As for verses like John 17:3, 1 Timothy 1:17, says that Jesus Christ is, "the Only Wise God"! https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-the-only-wise-god.101491/

John also shows in chapter 1 of his Gospel, that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, and 100% COEQUAL with the Father! https://christianforums.net/threads/the-incomparable-jesus-christ-in-the-prologue-of-john.102456/

In his Revelation, Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-is-almighty-god.102687/

In Titus 2:13, Jesus Christ is THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR, https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-our-great-god-and-saviour.88387/

In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ as "O God", https://christianforums.net/threads/your-throne-o-god-o-god-your-god.88389/

At john 17:3 Jesus is praying to the only true God when he says, "this means everlasting life their coming to know you the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." So Jesus isn't saying he is the only true God. You can ignore this by stating something that is completely opposite than what is written down, but I'm not going to agree with you.

Also at John 20:17 Jesus Christ says after he has been resurrected from the dead that he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. So here Jesus Christ isn't saying he's the Father and God of his apostles and disciples, but the person who is his Father and God is his apostles Father and God. This goes right along with John 17:3 that shows that Jesus was praying to the only true God

At John 10: 36 it says regarding the only begotten Son of God that the Father(God) sanctified him and sent him to the world. The fact that it was God who sanctified his only begotten Son and sent him into the world teaches me that the only begotten Son isn't the same person as God.
So since it shows at John 10:36 that the only begotten Son of God was with God before he came to the world of mankind I don't agree that the apostle John at John 1:1 is saying that the Word is God. The context lays the groundwork for accurate understanding. Translations of the Bible such as the king James Bible say, "the Word was with God." Someone who is with another person cannot be the same as that other person is with. John 10:36; John 17:3 and John 20:17 all prove from scripture that the only begotten Son of God isn't God. So John isn't saying the Word is God but he's saying at the very first part of John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the word with God," so it was the only begotten Son of God who was with God in heaven before he became human so I'm not going to go against this fact that the scriptures show. If anyone wants to contradict what John said when he said the Word was with God just because others have a belief that contradicts the clause, "the Word was with God," that's their choice but there are too many scriptures that show the Word is a person who is not God but who was with God in the beginning, and is a god or divine.

In Revelation 1:5 the only begotten son of God says he has a God and at Revelation 3:12 the only begotten Son of God says 4 times that he has a God

I know that at Titus 2:13 some translations such as the RS translation translates this scripture like, "Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” and that the NE translation, the TEV translation and the Jerusalem Bible have similar wording. However, NW reads: “while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus," and the NAB translation has a similar wording. The question a person should ask is, Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4, which refers to “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”? Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, Titus 1:4 clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation.
Henry Alford, in Vol. III page 421 in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that [a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostles way of writing.”
The New World Translation translates Hebrews 1:8 as, "God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in YHWH the Almighty God.
King James Version, translates Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” So, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is it that I don't believe this to be correct?
Note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in Hebrews 1:8 is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

It should also be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

With good reason, therefore, the New World Translation and a number of other translations such as An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is. Which fits very well with John 10:36, John 17:3, John 20:17 which show the only begotten Son of God has someone higher than him.
 
At john 17:3 Jesus is praying to the only true God when he says, "this means everlasting life their coming to know you the only true God and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." So Jesus isn't saying he is the only true God. You can ignore this by stating something that is completely opposite than what is written down, but I'm not going to agree with you.

Also at John 20:17 Jesus Christ says after he has been resurrected from the dead that he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. So here Jesus Christ isn't saying he's the Father and God of his apostles and disciples, but the person who is his Father and God is his apostles Father and God. This goes right along with John 17:3 that shows that Jesus was praying to the only true God

At John 10: 36 it says regarding the only begotten Son of God that the Father(God) sanctified him and sent him to the world. The fact that it was God who sanctified his only begotten Son and sent him into the world teaches me that the only begotten Son isn't the same person as God.
So since it shows at John 10:36 that the only begotten Son of God was with God before he came to the world of mankind I don't agree that the apostle John at John 1:1 is saying that the Word is God. The context lays the groundwork for accurate understanding. Translations of the Bible such as the king James Bible say, "the Word was with God." Someone who is with another person cannot be the same as that other person is with. John 10:36; John 17:3 and John 20:17 all prove from scripture that the only begotten Son of God isn't God. So John isn't saying the Word is God but he's saying at the very first part of John 1:1, "in the beginning was the Word and the word with God," so it was the only begotten Son of God who was with God in heaven before he became human so I'm not going to go against this fact that the scriptures show. If anyone wants to contradict what John said when he said the Word was with God just because others have a belief that contradicts the clause, "the Word was with God," that's their choice but there are too many scriptures that show the Word is a person who is not God but who was with God in the beginning, and is a god or divine.

In Revelation 1:5 the only begotten son of God says he has a God and at Revelation 3:12 the only begotten Son of God says 4 times that he has a God

I know that at Titus 2:13 some translations such as the RS translation translates this scripture like, "Awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,” and that the NE translation, the TEV translation and the Jerusalem Bible have similar wording. However, NW reads: “while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus," and the NAB translation has a similar wording. The question a person should ask is, Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4, which refers to “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”? Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, Titus 1:4 clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation.
Henry Alford, in Vol. III page 421 in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that [a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostles way of writing.”
The New World Translation translates Hebrews 1:8 as, "God is your [the Son’s] throne forever and ever.’” This shows that Jesus’ throne, his office or authority as a sovereign, has its source in YHWH the Almighty God.
King James Version, translates Hebrews 1:8 this way: “But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever.” So, they feel that Jesus is shown to be the same as Almighty God. Why is it that I don't believe this to be correct?
Note the context. In many translations, either in the main text or in the margin, Hebrews 1:9 reads, “God, your God, anointed you.” This makes it clear that the one addressed in Hebrews 1:8 is not God, but one who worships God and is anointed by him.

It should also be noted that Hebrews 1:8, 9 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, 7, which originally was addressed to a human king of Israel. Surely the writer of this psalm did not think that this human king was Almighty God and neither did the writer of Hebrews think that Jesus was Almighty God. Commenting on this, scholar B. F. Westcott said: “It is scarcely possible that אלוהים [‘Elo·himʹ, “God”] in the original can be addressed to the king. . . . Thus on the whole it seems best to adopt in the first clause the rendering: God is Thy throne (or, Thy throne is God), that is ‘Thy kingdom is founded upon God.’”

With good reason, therefore, the New World Translation and a number of other translations such as An American Translation, Moffatt; also the marginal reading in American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version and The New English Bible render Hebrews 1:8 as, “God is your throne.” This makes it clear that the “Son,” Jesus Christ, has a God who is higher than he is. Which fits very well with John 10:36, John 17:3, John 20:17 which show the only begotten Son of God has someone higher than him.

In John 17:5, just 2 verses after 3, Jesus says

“Καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ πάτερ παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἴχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἴναι παρὰ σοί”

“And now Glorify Me You Father with Yourself with the Glory that I had before the world existed together with You” (literal translation)

ONLY if Jesus Christ is COEQUAL with the Father, could He have said these words!

He is saying to the Father, that His Glory is the SAME as His, and this Glory has COEXISTED with the Father, from all Eternity!

In Isaiah 42:8 it says, “I am YHWH, that is My Name; I will not give My Glory to another or My Praise to idols”.

Note the words, "I will not give My Glory to another". And yet Jesus Christ says that His Glory is exactly the SAME as the Glory of the Father!

In Revelation 5:13-14 we read

"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the Blessing, and ALL the Honour, and ALL the Glory, and ALL the Might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and Worshipped." (so emphasized in the Greek)

Also note here, "AND TO THE LAMB", which is the Lord Jesus Christ.

ALL The Blessings, ALL The Honour, ALL The Glory, and ALL The Might, that is to be given by ALL Creation, to The Father, is ALSO to be given EQUALLY to Jesus Christ! And then they are BOTH WORSHIPED TOGETHER! There is NO distinction made!

On Hebrews 1:8, in its context, we read in verse 6,

“But when He again brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God Worship Him”

We here have the Greek verb “προσκυνησάτωσαν”, which is in the imperative mood, which is an Authoritative Command, given by the Father, to WORSHIP Jesus Christ.

The Father would not say this, IF Jesus Christ is not 100% COEQUAL with Him as YHWH!

In verses 10-12, the Father continues to Address Jesus Christ;

“And: In the beginning, Lord, You established the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; they will perish, but You remain. They will all wear out like clothing; You will roll them up like a cloak, and they will be changed like a robe. But You are the same, and Your years will never end” (Hebrews 1:10-12)

This passage is continued from verse 5, where the Father begins to Address Jesus Christ:

“For to which of the angels did He say at any time, “You are my Son. Today I have become your Father?” and again, “I will be to Him a Father, and He will be to Me a Son?””

In verse 10, “Lord” is the Greek “Kurie”, which is in the vocative case, used in direct address, which here is by God the Father, to Jesus Christ.

The words in verses 10-12, are from Psalm 102, where it is used for Almighty God:

“I say: “My God (’êl), do not take me in the middle of my life! Your years continue through all generations. Long ago You established the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You will endure; all of them will wear out like clothing. You will change them like a garment, and they will pass away. But You are the same, and Your years will never end.” (verses 24-27)

The fact that God the Father here clearly Addresses Jesus Christ, as THE CREATOR of the entire universe, is the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is Almighty God. The passage in Psalm 102, is of Creation by Almighty God, and it is directly used for Jesus Christ in Hebrews, by God the Father.

No doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, as Testified by God the Father Himself!
 
free said,
"Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Jhn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)[/QUOTE\]

John 1:1a says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. At John 1:1a in the first instance of the word theos(God) the Greek word "ton" (the) is before the Greek word theos(God) so John 1:1a is saying, "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with "the God" so the Word can't be the God because this scripture shows that the Word is with the God. The Word who is the only begotten Son of God, can't be with "the God" and also be the same person as God. John 1: 2 makes it clearly known that the Word was with the God.
John 1:3 teaches me that God created all things through his Word who is the only begotten Son of God.
If you want to look at the Greek grammar, you should look at all the Greek grammar:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past, that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that statement means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence.

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It expresses “direction towards,” as in relationship and communion, implying intimacy (see John 17:24). It is important to note here that in the Greek the article is present, so it reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father. On that we agree.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it was in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable, and they are one and the same, which is the error of Oneness theology. But this whole passage is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is, so John purposely doesn't use the article to avoid equating the two words. What it can only mean then, is that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

There is only one understanding of this verse--the Word existed for eternity past in intimate relationship with another, who is God the Father (at a minimum), and the Word is divine in nature, making him also God, since God is the only deity.

Looking at verses 2 and 3:

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. (ESV)

We see a repeat of verse 1 with the use of en, pros, and God with the article, reaffirming the timeless preexistence of the Word who was in active communion with the Father.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Simple, straightforward logic tells us that since "all things were made through" the Word, and that "without him was not any thing made that was made," it necessarily follows that the Word is not something that was made (see also 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16-17). That is, there never was a time when the Word did not exist.

And then verse 14:

John then makes it clear in verse 14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That is, the Word, not the Father, entered into time--Greek for "become" is egeneto (same as "made" in verse 3)--and took on human flesh. This is all precisely what Paul is speaking of in Phil 2:5-8.

John 1:18 is teaching me that no one has ever seen God, God's Word, who is the only begotten god, who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained God.
Exactly, except he is the begotten God, not god.

It's true that Thomas said to Jesus Christ at John 20:28, "My Lord and my God," but we have to remember that at John 20:17 Jesus said after he had been resurrected, that he has a Father and God who is also his apostles and disciples Father and God, this would include Thomas. So Jesus isn't saying he is the Father and God of his apostles and disciples, so what Thomas said at John 20:28 doesn't disprove what Jesus Christ said at John 20:17. The apostles including Thomas have a Father and God who is Jesus Christ's Father and God.
We already know from John 1:1-18 that Jesus is the preincarnate Word, the Son of God, in human flesh. We see throughout the gospel that Jesus believes he preexisted and then came to earth, that he came from the Father, in whose glory he shared before creation (all of which John also discusses in his prologue), and was going to return to the Father. He is simply returning to the place and position in glory from which he came. So, what Jesus says in John 20:17 cannot preclude him from being God.

Jesus says, “to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” He doesn’t use “our.” He is saying that his Father is now their Father but that there is a difference in relationship, in his sonship and theirs. His God is also their God, or, their God is his God, in that as a man, he still prayed to the Father as the one true God. But that in no way precludes Jesus from also being truly God. It is rather one of the main points of John’s gospel. Jesus is simply here stressing the new closeness of relationship between the disciples and God.

When we look at Thomas’s declaration in verse 28, we have other context to consider. He was speaking directly to Jesus and said, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” Notably, that was immediately after the resurrected Jesus repeated Thomas’s own words back to him, despite Jesus not having been present when Thomas spoke them. Not to mention that Thomas use the definite article ho for Theos, which, as you pointed out for John 1:1b, is to refer to the one true God. Thomas is literally calling Jesus God. That means the Son is equal to the Father but not the Father.

From beginning to end, John’s gospel teaches that Jesus is truly God and truly man, yet there is only one God. How that can be is explained in John 1:1. Why John can say that is precisely because of his time spent with Jesus and hearing all that Jesus said and seeing all that Jesus did. That is why Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God and why John wrote what he did in his prologue.
 
If you want to look at the Greek grammar, you should look at all the Greek grammar:

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (ESV)

Looking at the first clause, "In the beginning" is clearly a reference to Gen 1:1. The word "was" is the Greek, en, which is a form of eimi (I Am), and speaks of continuous action in the past, that is, absolute preexistence before any creation. What that statement means is that when the beginning began, the Word was already in existence, and hence, there was never a time when he did not exist. The very same applies to the Father, who has absolute preexistence.

In the second clause, "and the Word was with God," it is the Greek pros that is translated as "with." But it isn't merely speaking of being together or near. It expresses “direction towards,” as in relationship and communion, implying intimacy (see John 17:24). It is important to note here that in the Greek the article is present, so it reads, "the Word was with [the] God." So, God is a reference to someone other than the Word, at a minimum it is a reference to the Father. On that we agree.

When it comes to the last clause, "the Word was God," it is significant that "God" doesn't have the article in the Greek, as it was in the preceding clause. If the article had been present then "Word" and "God" become interchangeable, and they are one and the same, which is the error of Oneness theology. But this whole passage is about the logos, who the logos is, not who God is, so John purposely doesn't use the article to avoid equating the two words. What it can only mean then, is that the Word was divine in nature, or deity. However, since there is only one God, it is rightly translated as "the Word was God."

There is only one understanding of this verse--the Word existed for eternity past in intimate relationship with another, who is God the Father (at a minimum), and the Word is divine in nature, making him also God, since God is the only deity.

Looking at verses 2 and 3:

Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God. (ESV)

We see a repeat of verse 1 with the use of en, pros, and God with the article, reaffirming the timeless preexistence of the Word who was in active communion with the Father.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (ESV)

Simple, straightforward logic tells us that since "all things were made through" the Word, and that "without him was not any thing made that was made," it necessarily follows that the Word is not something that was made (see also 1 Cor 8:6 and Col 1:16-17). That is, there never was a time when the Word did not exist.

And then verse 14:

John then makes it clear in verse 14 that "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That is, the Word, not the Father, entered into time--Greek for "become" is egeneto (same as "made" in verse 3)--and took on human flesh. This is all precisely what Paul is speaking of in Phil 2:5-8.


Exactly, except he is the begotten God, not god.


We already know from John 1:1-18 that Jesus is the preincarnate Word, the Son of God, in human flesh. We see throughout the gospel that Jesus believes he preexisted and then came to earth, that he came from the Father, in whose glory he shared before creation (all of which John also discusses in his prologue), and was going to return to the Father. He is simply returning to the place and position in glory from which he came. So, what Jesus says in John 20:17 cannot preclude him from being God.

Jesus says, “to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” He doesn’t use “our.” He is saying that his Father is now their Father but that there is a difference in relationship, in his sonship and theirs. His God is also their God, or, their God is his God, in that as a man, he still prayed to the Father as the one true God. But that in no way precludes Jesus from also being truly God. It is rather one of the main points of John’s gospel. Jesus is simply here stressing the new closeness of relationship between the disciples and God.

When we look at Thomas’s declaration in verse 28, we have other context to consider. He was speaking directly to Jesus and said, “The Lord of me and the God of me.” Notably, that was immediately after the resurrected Jesus repeated Thomas’s own words back to him, despite Jesus not having been present when Thomas spoke them. Not to mention that Thomas use the definite article ho for Theos, which, as you pointed out for John 1:1b, is to refer to the one true God. Thomas is literally calling Jesus God. That means the Son is equal to the Father but not the Father.

From beginning to end, John’s gospel teaches that Jesus is truly God and truly man, yet there is only one God. How that can be is explained in John 1:1. Why John can say that is precisely because of his time spent with Jesus and hearing all that Jesus said and seeing all that Jesus did. That is why Thomas called Jesus his Lord and his God and why John wrote what he did in his prologue.

If I might add something here. the "In the beginning was the Word", is not referring to Genesis 1:1, but to eternity past. Verse 3 is about the Creation of the Universe, which is Genesis 1

In verse 3, Versions like the KJV have the Greek translated right, "All things were made by him", as The Author of Creation, and not just an "intermediate".

The Greek "en" is a preposition in the imperfect case, which is used for original and continued existence. "Eimi", is in the present, continuance tense, Eternally Am, as the context says.
 
God has a nature that is exclusive to him; it’s what makes him God. He is wholly other than his creatures and none can become God in nature.


Jesus, as the Son, is also truly God, that is, God in nature in the same way the Father is God in nature. They are the same substance, the same essence, that is God.


You’re conflating different meanings and uses of “nature” and presuming a certain meaning of “partaker.” Perhaps start with 1 Pet 1:5 and Heb 2:10.
Partaking or sharing in the divine nature isn’t something that is supposed to be out of reach for the normal Christian. When Peter told them they may partake of the divine nature, he meant there is something about their nature they can share with God. Peter isn’t trying to say they can become God, but rather they can have at least some of God’s nature.

Trinitarian commentary Got Questions says this regarding God’s nature:

The most important element of God’s nature is His holiness. Holy means “set apart,” and God is clearly separate from His creation based on His nature and attributes. Holiness is the foundation of all other aspects of God’s character. Revelation 15:4 says of God, “You alone are holy.”​

So the most important thing about God’s nature is His holiness and apostle Peter says it is a command to be holy. Therefore, Peter commanded Christians to have the nature of God.

1 Peter 1
15But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”


Yes, it absolutely is. He is the one and only, unique Son of God. Again, can you provide just one example of a son that isn’t of the exact same nature as his father?
According to Got Questions, they say that part of God’s nature is His sovereignty. In contrast to Jesus, Jesus is the Sovereign Lord’s servant. That means Jesus isn’t the Sovereign Lord.

“God is also, by nature, sovereign. He is judged by no one and has absolute authority over the entire universe and everything in it.”​
John and Peter demonstrated awareness that Jesus isn’t the Sovereign Lord in their prayer. They called Jesus God’s servant.

Acts 4
24When the believers heard this, they lifted up their voices to God with one accord. “Sovereign Lord,” they said, “You made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them.
27In fact, this is the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.


Furthermore, GQ says God is judged. However, it's Scriptural that Jesus took our judgement.

2 Corinthians 5
21God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Isaiah 53
6We all like sheep have gone astray,
each one has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid upon Him
the iniquity of us all.



continued....
 
Exactly. He has incommunicable attributes that are a part of his nature, which are distinct from his communicable attributes.
Not exactly. As I previously stated, Jesus is the example for what is attainable for the child of God.

1 Corinthians 11
1You are to imitate me, just as I imitate Christ.

You are doing violence to the text of Scripture by once again ignoring context, mainly John 1:1-3, 14, 1 Cor 8:6, Col 1:16-17, Phil 2:6-8, and Heb 1:2-3, 10-12. It’s even telling that you qualified Jesus’s sharing titles with God by “doesn’t share all of.”
I am doing justice to the Scripture because I don't believe any verse you just quoted, rightly divided, refers to the deity of Jesus and some of them even directly refute the idea.

John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Thessalonians 1:9,10, 1 Timothy 2:5
That is not what John, Thomas, or Paul believed. And it is not what Jesus believed about himself.
Thomas didn't believe Jesus is God nor did anyone else in the Bible. I'll share some of my personal commentary on John 20:28 here:

When Jesus said in John 20:17 that his God and the disciples God is the Father, in the Greek the manuscript utilizes "my μου (mou) God Θεόν (Theon)" meaning Jesus was referring to the definitive Lord God Almighty.

In the Greek, when the writers represent God with Theon as opposed to "my μου (mou) God! Θεός (theos)" it shows awareness that theos is a distinct usage of a form of god or something/someone that is godly, the same word sometimes used of the devil and other beings lesser than Lord God Almighty in the Bible.

Compare this to John 1:1 where there are two uses of God in the first verse. The God is ton Theon while the Word as a god/something godly is simply theos. This once again shows awareness of the distinction between The God and a god or something godly.

Therefore, another way to understand John 20:28 is that Jesus is a god or is godly, but not The God.

Either way we look at John 20:28, there isn't a path for Jesus to be Lord God Almighty.

Furthermore, the Bible clearly demonstrates Jesus (the Lamb) isn't the Almighty.

Revelation 21
22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
He is also the Lord and God, so we are called to be like him in our behaviour and thoughts. At one point believers will be more physically like him, but none will be God like he is.
If someone can be all that Jesus is but they can't be him then Jesus can't be his Father either. See, you seem you show awareness that not matter how much someone has in common with someone else they don't become that person. Doesn't the Bible say the Father is the only true God in more than one place? Why would I bother believing anything else.
I’m not surprised. It is the anti-Trinitarian M.O. to ignore everything that is too difficult. You’re taking things piecemeal instead of as a whole, which is not proper hermeneutics and leads to incorrect doctrine. That is why, like JWs, you take verses that speak clearly about Jesus’s humanity and use those to misinterpret and override those which speak clearly of his deity and equality with the Father, without any justification for doing so. If your position cannot account for everything, and it can’t, then it needs to change.
I am very comfortable with my beliefs, but I also know what you believe and we have already spoken about all of it before and I don't see any of it changing.

I do firmly believe the Bible is foundational without the proper foundation we cannot know enough to know what we do not know. If we do not know the truth we may not know we do not know the truth. In effect, the knowledge needed to speak the truth is the same knowledge needed to recognize with the truth is.

This is why there are so many people in Christianity with vastly different opinions and perspective with an inappropriate and disproportional amount of confidence. People tend to read one-liners from the Bible and now feel like they have knowledge of the truth, yet lack sight of the bigger picture.

This is why God calls us to humility and to love the truth. If we have the correct disposition we can receive what God has been trying to tell us all this time.

Let us come before the throne of grace and ask for wisdom. God wants to answer this prayer according to Scripture.

Case in point. We should never take one thing at a time; it is the totality of the evidence.
Agreed!
 
After the scripture was altered it does say that. That's a problem, though, which is what my point has been. Altering the scripture to say something it doesn't is not good.

Do you believe we are allowed to add entirely new ideas or subtract ideas from the Bible?


Jesus Christ is LORD is the theme of the whole Bible.

Do you believe John 1 is in scripture.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (G2316 Theos) and the Word was God. (G2316 Theos)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

We see from this passage that God the Word (The Son) became flesh.


Now The Apostle Paul speaks the same thing about God becoming manifested flesh -


These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, (G2316 Theos) which is the church of the living God, (G2316 Theos) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (G2316 Theos) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16



Denial of scripture is not a valid theological position.
 
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Jesus Christ is LORD is the theme of the whole Bible.
Not according to Scripture.

Do you believe this?

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:[YHWH]
“You are My Son;[not YHWH]
today I have become Your Father.[YHWH]
Do you believe John 1 is in scripture.


In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (G2316 Theos) and the Word was God. (G2316 Theos)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14
And all the Unitarians said amen! Yet we will not agree on what that means will we? That's why we are discussing.

We see from this passage that God the Word (The Son) became flesh.
That isn't what it means.

Now The Apostle Paul speaks the same thing about God becoming manifested flesh -


These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, (G2316 Theos) which is the church of the living God, (G2316 Theos) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (G2316 Theos) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16



Denial of scripture is not a valid theological position.
1 Timothy 3:16 is an alteration of the Biblical manuscripts as has already been proven. It's also a completely foreign and new concept that "God appeared in the flesh." It doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.

So let me ask you a question. Paul said that God doesn't even need humans really. God appeared as a man when He didn't even need to do that? Your manuscript contradicts orthodox Christian theology.

Acts 17
24The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples made by human hands. 25Nor is He served by human hands, as if He needed anything, because He Himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
 
Not according to Scripture.

Do you believe this?

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by the LORD:[YHWH]
“You are My Son;[not YHWH]
today I have become Your Father.[YHWH]

You add to scripture, your own opinion. :nono

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10


  • “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Son created the heavens and the earth.

YHWH created the heavens and the earth.

Jesus created the heavens and the earth.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. Colossians 1:15-16



Case Closed!



Take your denial of our LORD and His scripture back where it came from. :wave
 
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:
“You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?
And again:
“I will be to Him a Father,
And He shall be to Me a Son”?
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:
“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”
7 And of the angels He says:
“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”
8 But to the Son He says:
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:5-10
It's quoted from Psalm 45 where the original context isn't about Jesus. It's about a human king with a queen. The writer of Hebrews later applied it to Jesus. The one in the original context isn't YHWH. YHWH doesn't have a queen nor has companions to be anointed above. By that fact alone, it shows the awareness the writer of Hebrews had of Jesus not being God himself. Couldn't have been any clearer.

Speaking of Hebrews, it proves Jesus isn't God.

Case closed.

Hebrews 5
7During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence. 8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from what He suffered. 9And having been made perfect, He became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey Him 10and was designated by God as high priest in the order of Melchizedek.
 
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)

Heb 1:9 thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. (KJV)


Ok so let’s analyze your Hebrews 1:8-9 response he says your throne o God, and then he says “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” who has loved righteousness and hated iniquity or wickedness, well the God sitting on the throne of course.


And the he says therefore GOD YOUR GOD, whoops his God and again we find the words “His God” so this God on the throne has a God, that is two Gods, but wait it get’s worse. “thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows” so this God is anointed by his GOD to be ABOVE his fellows, so since we are talking about the God on the throne here, these fellows or companions can only be other Gods, and he has to be anointed by his God to be above them. so how many Gods do Trinitarians have? Seems like a lot more than one or three
If the Trinity is real then this shows that the Trinity doctrine as it stands cannot account for the apparent inequalities between members of the Godhead.